The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

Post by DaveInSeattle »

sancarlos wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:58 pm Despite Ortiz' rumored use of PEDs, it isn't something many people seem to associate with him. Is that because he IS a likable person? Or, because of reasonable doubt?
'Rumored' PED use? He had a positive drug test. Way beyond rumored.

And if Ortiz gets in as a strictly DH, while Edgar is kept out because 'he was only a DH', I'm going to bang my head against a wall.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Yeah, Ortiz failed a PED test. We just weren't supposed to know about it.

I'm still waiting on Ortiz to make good on his word to get to the bottom of this. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

Post by Joe K »

Wait, you guys don’t believe Ortiz that his rapid transformation from a guy with <60 HRs in ~1700 PAs in Minnesota to the game’s most feared power hitter was due to improved coaching?

By the way, he’s definitely getting in on the first ballot. I don’t know if there’s an East Coast bias per se, but Boston fans are definitely overrepresented in the American sports media.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I'm strongly with DiS on the Ortiz versus Edgar thing and I didn't have Edgar top 10 on this last ballot.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:02 pm In the postseason, the great David Ortiz (.289/.404/.543 postseason) had the ability to transform himself into regular season non-HoFer Lance Berkman (.293/.406/.537).
FWIW, I'm not saying that Ortiz had a special skill that allowed him to shine in high-leverage situations, a skill that one could count on reliably going forward.

I'm saying he actually did come through in a number of high-leverage, high-visibility situations. Even if that was just the law of averages working out, i.e., he happened to come through in those big moments, the fact is that he still did it. And that is relevant for a Hall of Fame.

IMHO, it's not enough to get someone in if the whole body of work doesn't justify it (Jack Morris). I'm saying it's something that goes in the mix - even if it isn't something you should consider if you were a GM putting a team together.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Get out of my deleted posts folder
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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No, I agree with that, clutch events happen even if someone isn't predictively future clutch. But doesn't that circle us back to Pettitte and why the same logic isn't being applied where "even if his regular season stats don't do it, if they don't, his playoffs must" as a fill-all-gaps solution? Or Jim Edmonds? Of fucking Schilling, of all people? And why not as a demerit to any borderline in player who sucked over a material playoff sample?

So its not that playoffs should be ignored, its that they shouldn't only be looked at when someone has already decided which argument they're choosing to make.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Magary had a humorous take on the HOF voting in this week's Jambaroo.
The Baseball Hall of Fame rejected Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens again, and the longer they go without inducting those two shitbags, the more thoroughly they play themselves. Honestly, who the fuck is gonna make a pilgrimage to Cooperstown to see the Trevor Hoffman plaque? It’s basically a Hall of Remembering Some Guys now. By 2020 they’re gonna have to offer you a free Netflix subscription just to get you in the door.

As always, steroids are really just a cheap way for writers to leave out players they personally don’t like. On a human level, I understand. Roger Clemens is total dick and I too would find morbid pleasure in denying him entrance to the Hall. The fact that he has 27 children and gave them all K names is a good excuse to permanently exile him from everywhere. But it’s stupid to build a museum of baseball history and selectively excise the portions of that history you find morally objectionable. Not only were Clemens and Bonds significant figures in baseball, they’re also interesting. Make a fucking steroid exhibit! Put all the vials and syringes on display and play ominous music like you’re visiting the Tower of London’s torture chamber. I would go to that exhibit. The baseball Hall of Fame is the only museum on earth that fails to understand that tourists are more interested in the dark parts of history than the heroic parts.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I was a massive baseball fan as a kid, like 98th percentile, and I found the HoF pretty boring overall. I might appreciate it more now, but F trying to get to Cooperstown without a secondary reason.



(I may have mentioned this before, but my biggest memory of that weekend was hearing "Creep" for the first time at an ice cream shop.)
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:23 pm I was a massive baseball fan as a kid, like 98th percentile, and I found the HoF pretty boring overall. I might appreciate it more now, but F trying to get to Cooperstown without a secondary reason.



(I may have mentioned this before, but my biggest memory of that weekend was hearing "Creep" for the first time at an ice cream shop.)
Brewery Ommegang is up there.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Was coming here for this. Just let everyone willing to travel to Cooperstown in.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I like both those guys as much as the next guy as players, but what the serious fuck?
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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What.
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Hey, it was "long overdue," according to the strip club bouncer who wrote the article.

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Figured Edgar Martinez would be the first DH to go in.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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So Baines got in before Lou Whitaker. Cool. Cool, cool, cool.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Who doesn't recall watching Mike Mussina pitch to Harold Baines and thinking, "that guy will be in the Hall of Fame someday..."
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Just putting this here:

Lee Smith 29.4
Harold Baines 38.7

Total WAR 68.1

Lou Whitaker’s career WAR is 75.1
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Harold Baines was so great that I, an exhaustive consumer of all things 80s baseball, had been picturing him as an Oriole for the last 12 hours before being reminded this morning that he played 14 years for Chicago. If I was a guy like Omar Vizquel, I'd ask to be taken off the main ballot ASAP so these other dolts can get me in before I'm too old.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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They might convene an emergency session for McGriff.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:14 am They might convene an emergency session for McGriff.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I’ve made this argument!

Keith: HOF question: I see a lot of momentum for Edgar and sheffield is more or less stalled. Offensive WAR gives Sheffield a significant advantage that gets eroded by his negative defense. If Sheffield had just been a DH, he’d be close to a no brainer HOFer. How do you reconcile this?

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:44 pm I’ve made this argument!

Keith: HOF question: I see a lot of momentum for Edgar and sheffield is more or less stalled. Offensive WAR gives Sheffield a significant advantage that gets eroded by his negative defense. If Sheffield had just been a DH, he’d be close to a no brainer HOFer. How do you reconcile this?

Keith Law: I have struggled with that exact question. My ballot & explanatory column go up next week and I promise you I answer it in there.
...and what can get either of them the respect recently afforded... Harold Baines!
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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This shouldn't matter, but I wonder how much it affects someone like Sheffield's candidacy that he played for 8 teams.

Also, think there's going to one day be a revolution in defensive evaluation of past players and you'll see the effect of defensive WAR mitigated in cases of guys like Sheffield and diminished in the case of a guy like Mike Trout.

That's not pissing on Trout, who is remarkable on defense, but I still feel like his WAR is vastly overinflated by his defensive ability.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I think the defensive component of WAR actually undersells Trout. Because he plays CF, he’s compared to guys like Kiermaier and Buxton who can’t hit but are amazing defenders. Whereas guys like Betts and Heyward, who are really good defenders playing a corner spot, tend to get huge numbers for their dWAR. According to FanGraphs, Heyward has 2.5 times the career defensive value of Trout. And I don’t think that’s an accurate reflection of their comparative abilities.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Yeah, there are still enough issues with defensive WAR that I mostly use offense to carry the quantitative portion and let defense color in the rest.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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The President is all in on Boston sports this week.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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rass wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:53 am The President is all in on Boston sports this week.
He does seem like the average Barstool fan in about 40 years.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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My 9: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Roy Halladay, Andruw Jones, Mariano Rivera, Larry Walker, Mike Mussina, Scott Rolen, Edgar Martinez

Grandstanding omission: Curt Schilling

Also yes: Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield

Notes: Todd Helton (a .287/.386/.469 1B slash away from Coors makes him either John Olerud with less OBP or Carlos Delgado with less power), Billy Wagner (in relative to most other relievers already in), Andy Pettitte (closer than he'll get credit for)
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Well at least Rivera was unanimous.

Thankfully keeps jeter from being first unanimous.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Nah, he could be sarcastic/surly and played bad defense. "If Cal wasn't ..."

I'm pretty happy about Mussina, a couple years back I wouldn't have expected this one.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Rush2112 wrote: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:54 amOne of my happiest moments as a Red Sox fan was when Carl Everett broke up that piece of shit's perfect game.
Bump ; )
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:45 am I'm all in on Billy Wagner. He's the second-best closer ever unless Papelbon finds a few more good years.
This is a fun thread to read back through.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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I really don’t understand the voters’ lack of love for Andruw Jones and Scott Rolen. Maybe my perspective is skewed because my interest in baseball peaked from roughly 1995-2005 but I don’t understand how those two and Jim Edmonds aren’t viewed as surefire HOF’ers. I also think Bernie Williams deserved a lot more votes but was hurt by the disproportionate share of Yankees credit given to Jeter.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense states that a catcher's defensive reputation is inversely proportional to their offensive abilities.

I have a theory that it's a bit of the inverse of above, where if you take a very good hitter with elite defense and a mediocre to bad hitter with elite defense, the latter automatically gets a defensive bump. If either Andruw or Rolen were lesser offensive players, there would be complete focus on their defense and atleast Andruw would go straight in given the position. Its very dumb.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:14 pm Nichols' Law of Catcher Defense states that a catcher's defensive reputation is inversely proportional to their offensive abilities.

I have a theory that it's a bit of the inverse of above, where if you take a very good hitter with elite defense and a mediocre to bad hitter with elite defense, the latter automatically gets a defensive bump. If either Andruw or Rolen were lesser offensive players, there would be complete focus on their defense and atleast Andruw would go straight in given the position. Its very dumb.
There’ll be a ton of voters who didn't vote for Andruw who will vote for Molina on the first ballot and they’re all morons.
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Re: The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum MMXV

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Rivera being the first unanimous HOFer is so hilariously dumb (though he obviously deserves induction) is perfection in and of itself.
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