The Swamp

I think the writers picking and choosing who were clean is bullshit. I get the 10 vote limit because you can't just let them go all Willy nilly. I guess because of the steroid era there's just a lot of people now coming on he ballot whose numbers warrant consideration. I agree posada probably shouldn't have fallen off on one ballot. And he likely wouldn't have if they hadn't culled all he people who no longer cover baseball.

Bert Blyleven had 14% in his second season. That doesn't mean that Posada would have had a similar progression or that he belongs in, but it shows how much can happen over time. You never know how priorities change, future generations may place a higher value on peeing on ones hands than we do.

I've softened since my first comment about him being a yankee. He wasn't a lock of course but yeah, he should have gotten a few years.

Trying for the Friday night news dump there, AB?

mister d wrote:Trying for the Friday night news dump there, AB?

I'll stand by it Monday. Reflection and all that.

I think the 10-vote limit is what hurt Posada much more directly than anything else. I think he deserved serious consideration but I don't see how anyone could rank him in the top-10 this year. The only way you could is if you did pick and choose who was clean, and left nearly all of Bonds, Clemens, Manny, Sheffield, Bagwell and Pudge off your ballot. I guess voters could have made tactical votes to keep him on the ballot but I doubt more than a handful of HOF voters do that.

The problem with the 10 vote rule is that it doesn't quite fit when a scenario arises where the toilet's jammed with PED floaters. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire yadda yadda should've flushed years ago, which would allow for the proper digestion of Posada's candidacy, and then his proper circling of the bowl would occur.

Analogy aside, Posada's not a hall of famer. However, there's a few HOFers in his comp list, which suggests he should've stayed on the ballot a few to several years.

Of the non-banned and non-PEDS suspected players who are eligible but not in the HOF, here are the eleven, in rough order, who I think are most deserving. Who am I missing?

Curt Schilling
Lou Whitaker
Alan Trammell
Minnie Minoso
Bobby Grich
Larry Walker
Mike Mussina
Dick Allen
Dwight Evans
Gary Sheffield
Graig Nettles

Sheffield is very "PED suspected".

McGwire going to the hall...in cartoon form.
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainmen ... -1.2978760

25 years...I'm old

DC47 wrote:Of the non-banned and non-PEDS suspected players who are eligible but not in the HOF, here are the eleven, in rough order, who I think are most deserving. Who am I missing?

Curt Schilling
Lou Whitaker
Alan Trammell
Minnie Minoso
Bobby Grich
Larry Walker
Mike Mussina
Dick Allen
Dwight Evans
Gary Sheffield
Graig Nettles

steve finley

TT2.0 wrote:

DC47 wrote:Of the non-banned and non-PEDS suspected players who are eligible but not in the HOF, here are the eleven, in rough order, who I think are most deserving. Who am I missing?

Curt Schilling
Lou Whitaker
Alan Trammell
Minnie Minoso
Bobby Grich
Larry Walker
Mike Mussina
Dick Allen
Dwight Evans
Gary Sheffield
Graig Nettles

steve finley

Ken Caminiti

mister d wrote:Sheffield is very "PED suspected".

He openly described his said-to-be unwitting steroid use when living and training with Barry Bonds during part of one winter. That was a pretty short period of time. There's no evidence or even rumors I've heard that link him to PED's beyond that. I'd be glad to see information to the contrary.

I'm a big Sheffield fan. So perhaps it's just my bias. But I'd distinguish between short-term use and long-term use.

Finley is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps you're joking?

Caminiti is perhaps the saddest PED's case in baseball history. He'll go in to the PED's Hall of Fame in the first year's class, along with Canseco and Lance Armstrong.

DC47 wrote:Finley is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps you're joking?

Caminiti is perhaps the saddest PED's case in baseball history. He'll go in to the PED's Hall of Fame in the first year's class, along with Canseco and Lance Armstrong.

sadly im not. my alltime favorite player. i wish i could make a coherent case for him...but he should be there damnit

DC47 wrote:Caminiti is perhaps the saddest PED's case in baseball history. He'll go in to the PED's Hall of Fame in the first year's class, along with Canseco and Lance Armstrong.

I will always associate Caminiti in my mind with this paragraph:

Sports Illustrated wrote:He told SI that he used steroids so heavily in '96 that by the end of that season, his testicles shrank and retracted; doctors found that his body had virtually stopped producing its own testosterone and that his level of the hormone had fallen to 20% of normal. "It took four months to get my nuts to drop on their own," he said of the period after he stopped taking the drugs.

I was at a Padres game where they honored Caminiti's family and did a video retrospective that treated him as a tragic hero while trying to avoid a suggestion he had done anything wrong. Really, really awkward.

DC47 wrote:

mister d wrote:Sheffield is very "PED suspected".

He openly described his said-to-be unwitting steroid use when living and training with Barry Bonds during part of one winter. That was a pretty short period of time.

Sure, and Pettitte only used that one time to come back from injury because he cared about not letting down the team so much. Beyond a failed test, its pointless to try to assess guilt and/or degrees of guilt, especially using the own players' words.

(And I have Sheffield either in or my last man out. His comp to Edgar Martinez makes me really uncomfortable.)

I don't think Sheffield failed a test, was named by Canseco, was in the Mitchell report or was otherwise incriminated for PEDs use. Nothing beyond his own statement, as above. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think Sheffield and Edgar Martinez are reasonable comps. I put them in the same category as hitters, and give a slight edge to Sheffield in the field and on the bases. I think Dick Allen is in the same place. All are marginal HOF votes in my view. But of course, that means there are many roughly similar players who have been elected -- even recently -- to the Hall who are clearly inferior. Jim Rice comes immediately to mind.

2018 ballot is out so I can start getting very upset: https://bbwaa.com/18-hof-ballot-release/

Fenway Park turned Jim Rice from a below average outfielder with decent pop into a below average outfielder who is in the Hall of Fame.

Another year with atleast 11 I'm full yes on ...

VOTE YES:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Vladimir Guerrero
Andruw Jones
Mike Mussina
Manny Ramirez
Scott Rolen
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Larry Walker

STRATEGIC NO VOTES:
Chipper Jones (should be noted last year my strategic no was Vlad and he missed so I would have felt like a total dick explaining my logic)

STILL INTERNALLY DEBATING:
Edgar Martinez (clearly a great hitter, but would I really start a team with him over one of the 11 above?)
Johan Santana (I believe there are some interesting comps to Koufax and there maybe needs to be some mechanism for massive peak + injury guys)
Jim Thome (I've somehow never considered Thome before so I should probably start ... I imagine he gets in)

GUYS WHO WILL GET >1 VOTE THAT I WOULDN'T VOTE FOR BUT ALSO WON'T FLIP OUT OVER:
Chris Carpenter
Jeff Kent
Fred McGriff
Sammy Sosa
Billy Wagner

GUYS WHO WILL GET >1 VOTE THAT I WOULDN'T VOTE FOR AND LIKELY WILL FLIP OUT OVER:
Trevor Hoffman
Omar Vizquel (this one is going to get super annoying)

WILL HAVE A PREPOSTEROUS ATTENTION TO HALL WORTHINESS RATIO AND WILL APPEAR ON FALLON:
Johnny Damon

I'M SURE ITS NICE TO BE ON THE BALLOT:
Livan Hernandez
Orlando Hudson
Jason Isringhausen
Carlos Lee
Brad Lidge
Hideki Matsui
Kevin Millwood
Jamie Moyer
Kerry Wood
Carlos Zambrano

FUCK OFF:
Aubrey Huff

mister d wrote:2018 ballot is out so I can start getting very upset: https://bbwaa.com/18-hof-ballot-release/

We are now squarely in the zone where you can build an entire my-generation-all-star-team out of just the guys who are on the ballot for the first time. My ten:

Bonds
Clemens
Guerrero
Chipper
Edgar
Mussina
Manny
Sosa
Thome
Walker

There should also be an entire room with a wraparound 3D video of The Kerry Wood Game

Moyer will get at least one "I know he's not really a Hall of Famer, but I really liked him" vote from some Baby Boomer writer, book it.

Johnny Carwash wrote:Moyer will get at least one "I know he's not really a Hall of Famer, but I really liked him" vote from some Baby Boomer writer, book it.

Yup, which sucks because those are fine when the ballot doesn't go like 15 worthy players deep. Every niceness vote takes away from a guy who really should be making it.

i usually see things pretty closely aligned with you - i think the only modification i'd make is Edgar over Vlad, not so much against Vlad but I'm pretty vocally pro-Edgar. I was always frosted that he didn't get a proper start until he was what, 27 or 28? The DH "penalty" I think plays pretty heavily here.

Johan Santana was for a time my favourite player in baseball after Pedro retired immediately after game 3 of the 2004 World Series and was never seen on a mound again so I like the hmmm value there but I just can't get behind it for too long...maybe I'm over(under?)compensating for my Johan-love.

I'd give Jeff Kent more love than a 1 vote. Poor Aubrey Huff :D

mister d wrote:Another year with atleast 11 I'm full yes on ...

VOTE YES:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Vladimir Guerrero
Andruw Jones
Mike Mussina
Manny Ramirez
Scott Rolen
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Larry Walker

STRATEGIC NO VOTES:
Chipper Jones (should be noted last year my strategic no was Vlad and he missed so I would have felt like a total dick explaining my logic)

STILL INTERNALLY DEBATING:
Edgar Martinez (clearly a great hitter, but would I really start a team with him over one of the 11 above?)
Johan Santana (I believe there are some interesting comps to Koufax and there maybe needs to be some mechanism for massive peak + injury guys)
Jim Thome (I've somehow never considered Thome before so I should probably start ... I imagine he gets in)

GUYS WHO WILL GET >1 VOTE THAT I WOULDN'T VOTE FOR BUT ALSO WON'T FLIP OUT OVER:
Chris Carpenter
Jeff Kent
Fred McGriff
Sammy Sosa
Billy Wagner

GUYS WHO WILL GET >1 VOTE THAT I WOULDN'T VOTE FOR AND LIKELY WILL FLIP OUT OVER:
Trevor Hoffman
Omar Vizquel (this one is going to get super annoying)

WILL HAVE A PREPOSTEROUS ATTENTION TO HALL WORTHINESS RATIO AND WILL APPEAR ON FALLON:
Johnny Damon

I'M SURE ITS NICE TO BE ON THE BALLOT:
Livan Hernandez
Orlando Hudson
Jason Isringhausen
Carlos Lee
Brad Lidge
Hideki Matsui
Kevin Millwood
Jamie Moyer
Kerry Wood
Carlos Zambrano

FUCK OFF:
Aubrey Huff

I don't necessarily have an issue with Edgar over Vlad, but I'm pretty certain if I were starting up an AL franchise I'd pick Vlad without much hesitation.

And while I've done this before, its still worth posting. Larry Walker was a .282/.372/.500 hitter outside of Coors and really, really good outfielder. I wouldn't really mind an argument that he was better in sum than Vlad.

always thought as such. Plus he's Canadian so he's got another big+

Should have been Trammell and Whitaker but at least they rectified the insanity of not inducting Trammell.

brian wrote:Should have been Trammell and Whitaker but at least they rectified the insanity of not inducting Trammell.

long overdue

one of the best 2B/SS combos I ever saw play

So Whitaker helps get Morris in while not being able to get in himself.

what the living fuck is the MODERN ERA BALLOT


i can't even.


glad for Trammell, should've been in eons ago but fuck. Jack Morris is in the gd Hall. Dave motherfucking Stieb should be crying himself to sleep on his huge Tesla pillow.


(n.b. i don't think Stieb should be anywhere close either but)

MaxWebster wrote:what the living fuck is the MODERN ERA BALLOT

Something that was created for exactly this purpose, it would appear.

Trammell election removes the top player from my "should be in HOF" list. Whitaker is in the top five.

As much as I liked watching him win for the Tigers, Jack Morris wasn't on that list. I suspect one World Series game move him way up, and just enough to make it. I certainly count the post-season. Even over-weight it. But Morris still didn't do enough to be in the HOF. And this assumes the too-low standards that have been applied in recent years. He's right there with Dawson and Rice as recent inductees who shouldn't have been.

Now at the top of my "should be in the HOF list: Marvin Miller.

I'd go as far as to say that Jack Morris is now the least deserving pitcher in Cooperstown, blowing past the pitchers the Yankees managed to throw in there like Lefty Gomez and Herb Pennock who collected rings primarily due to pitching for gaudy offenses.

I mean, yeah, he is 50th all time in innings pitched, but that 105 ERA+.

Oof.

As for Marvin Miller not being in the Hall of Fame? It basically renders the entity irrelevant.

brian wrote:Should have been Trammell and Whitaker but at least they rectified the insanity of not inducting Trammell.

Yep. I am now debating the merits of a 90-minute car ride next summer.

And on Marvin Miller...

https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/stat ... 3197285376