AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Joe K
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Joe K »

Having lived in Boston for several years, I can attest that the Red Sox are the only local team that Boston fans pay attention to even if they are losing. The other teams' fan bases are heavily bandwagon driven. Simmons is just a typical Boston sports fan in that regard.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by HaulCitgo »

"Having gone to school in boston, I know next to nothing about boston."

Plenty of people followed the Cs during the Dino Radja years. Plenty of people watched Jim Nance and Irving Fryar. Bruins probably have the most true fans, its just that hockey kinda sucks.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Joe K »

HaulCitgo wrote:"Having gone to school in boston, I know next to nothing about boston."

Plenty of people followed the Cs during the Dino Radja years. Plenty of people watched Jim Nance and Irving Fryar. Bruins probably have the most true fans, its just that hockey kinda sucks.
I went to a Celtics game during the Pitino years and fans were literally doing "overrated" cheers for the team's own players. Also, wasn't there an "MVP" chant for Kobe at a Celtics game circa 2006? As for the Bruins, ticket prices skyrocketed post-2011. That team had nowhere near the broad following they have now before that Cup. Simmons refering to Rich Peverly as "Patrick Beverley" was a classic example of that.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Joe K wrote:I went to a Celtics game during the Pitino years and fans were literally doing "overrated" cheers for the team's own players.
So now you're saying they do follow all the time?
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Joe K »

Ryan wrote:
Joe K wrote:I went to a Celtics game during the Pitino years and fans were literally doing "overrated" cheers for the team's own players.
So now you're saying they do follow all the time?
Ha. I remember that the fans were particularly merciless to Chauncey Billups. Too bad, since he was the only player other than Toine on that team who ever panned out.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by HaulCitgo »

Wasnt joe johnson on that squad. Paul Pierce?
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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HaulCitgo wrote:Wasnt joe johnson on that squad. Paul Pierce?
I think it was the year before Pierce joined and 3 or 4 years before Iso Joe.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Rush2112 wrote:Taping signals from outside the designated areas wasn't illegal until 2007 and was and taping of signals from those areas still is in widespread use around the league. A leading statement for mouthbreathers to look at scream "cheaters, cheaters!!!"
The allegations against the Patriots prompted NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson to send a letter to all 32 team owners, general managers and head coaches on Sept. 6, 2006, reminding them that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited from the sidelines."
It's fascinating how the NFL had to send out a memo in 2006 reminding teams about a rule that wasn't even in place until 2007.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Nonlinear FC wrote:I'm not asking this as an apologist... What advantage is gained by taping from unsanctioned areas? As I'm typing, I'm thinking that those doling out signals and those around them know where/how to shield the signals from those spots?
Probably a better question for the guy who thought it was so important that he had his employees put tape over their team logos and pretend they were filming documentaries.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by duff »

Jerloma wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:Taping signals from outside the designated areas wasn't illegal until 2007 and was and taping of signals from those areas still is in widespread use around the league. A leading statement for mouthbreathers to look at scream "cheaters, cheaters!!!"
The allegations against the Patriots prompted NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson to send a letter to all 32 team owners, general managers and head coaches on Sept. 6, 2006, reminding them that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited from the sidelines."
It's fascinating how the NFL had to send out a memo in 2006 reminding teams about a rule that wasn't even in place until 2007.
It was a memo, not a rule. Come on J-Lo. Don't you even read what Rush posts. Since it was a memo it wasn't against the rules and no cheating took place. Even with the taping over of logos and making up grandiose stories on who they worked for. Because who doesn't like a good story about "bending" rules.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Jerloma wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:I'm not asking this as an apologist... What advantage is gained by taping from unsanctioned areas? As I'm typing, I'm thinking that those doling out signals and those around them know where/how to shield the signals from those spots?
Probably a better question for the guy who thought it was so important that he had his employees put tape over their team logos and pretend they were filming documentaries.

Sometimes people are asking a question out of genuine curiosity, but thanks, I'll step back and watch the fascinating exchange where we all shout at Rush for another 42 pages.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Rush2112 »

duff wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:Taping signals from outside the designated areas wasn't illegal until 2007 and was and taping of signals from those areas still is in widespread use around the league. A leading statement for mouthbreathers to look at scream "cheaters, cheaters!!!"
The allegations against the Patriots prompted NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson to send a letter to all 32 team owners, general managers and head coaches on Sept. 6, 2006, reminding them that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited from the sidelines."
It's fascinating how the NFL had to send out a memo in 2006 reminding teams about a rule that wasn't even in place until 2007.
It was a memo, not a rule. Come on J-Lo. Don't you even read what Rush posts. Since it was a memo it wasn't against the rules and no cheating took place. Even with the taping over of logos and making up grandiose stories on who they worked for. Because who doesn't like a good story about "bending" rules.
Sorry I couldn't read this with all the piped in crowd noise.
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Nonlinear FC wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:I'm not asking this as an apologist... What advantage is gained by taping from unsanctioned areas? As I'm typing, I'm thinking that those doling out signals and those around them know where/how to shield the signals from those spots?
Probably a better question for the guy who thought it was so important that he had his employees put tape over their team logos and pretend they were filming documentaries.

Sometimes people are asking a question out of genuine curiosity, but thanks, I'll step back and watch the fascinating exchange where we all shout at Rush for another 42 pages.
Okay. If the Pats are disguising people on the opposing teams sidelines as members of Steve Sabol's crew, why would a defensive coach know to shield that person from their signal? Also, before Spygate, no defensive players had radios so the coaches needed their playl caller (usually a Mike) to be able to see the signal. They couldn't be all that discreet about it.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Rush2112 »

Nonlinear FC wrote:I'm not asking this as an apologist... What advantage is gained by taping from unsanctioned areas? As I'm typing, I'm thinking that those doling out signals and those around them know where/how to shield the signals from those spots?

I don't think anything is gained. As Belichick has stated its not like they were seeing anything that "80,000 fans" were also seeing. You'll notice that DC/OC will even cover their mouths when calling play calls (even when they aren't playing the Patriots!)

From my understanding, the filming from unsanctioned areas was basically a thumb at what Belichick thought was a stupid memo because as you stated nothing is really gained from filming here versus filming there. Other teams had been filming from outside designated areas, it's just when the Jets called them out that the NFL finally got around to issuing penalties.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by brian »

So now the story is that Belichick continued to tape from unauthorized areas to troll the NFL?
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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brian wrote:So now the story is that Belichick continued to tape from unauthorized areas to troll the NFL?
Yeah Belichick's like that, dude. He'll do anything for a joke. Fun guy. He doesn't even care if it cost him a half mil and a 1st round draft pick.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Ryan »

Fuck me for getting involved in this, but Belichick's original out was that the rule stated you couldn't record anything and use it in the same game.
No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game. All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead. Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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brian wrote:So now the story is that Belichick continued to tape from unauthorized areas to troll the NFL?
Not "now the story is" that's what has been said from the beginning.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Then there was the Patriots/ Jets camera incident.

The first one.

When the Jets got caught.

In a playoff game, Patriots' security prevented a Jets camera crew from filming. The crew was there in addition to the cameramen already recording game film from end zone and sideline angles. New England security didn’t confiscate the footage and turn it over to the NFL.

At a press conference, Mangini said the extra camera was there because he wanted game footage from both end zones. After the Spygate scandal broke, a former Patriots video assistant involved with filming coaches, Matt Walsh, said that was the standard excuse for his filming.

(After all, even if the team acted within the rules and some opponents knew what the team was doing, why alert those opponents who didn’t know? Of course, telling the media would alert everyone.)

Earlier that season, at Lambeau field, Matt Estrella, another Patriots’ video assistant, faced a similar problem. Packers’ security confronted him for not having the right credentials. The Packers' reaction was like the Patriots’ reaction to the Jets cameramen in the playoff game. The Packers didn’t turn Estrella over to the NFL or take his recording.

They just made him stop.

On September 9, 2007, the Patriots and Jets met for the first time following the playoff camera incident. During the first quarter, Jets and NFL security personal detained Estrella, but this went beyond a proportional response to the harassment of their own camera crew.

The league confiscated Estrella’s camera and footage. Along with Jets’ cheerleaders performing their routines, Estrella recorded other material which caused controversy. He panned from the scoreboard to Jets’ defensive coaches calling plays via hand signals.

It’s standard practice for NFL teams to film their games. (These days, “Film” and “tape” can be misnomers because teams often use digitized footage.) NFL rules govern videotaping and film exchanges which allow teams to study future opponents. Unlike television coverage, game film lets viewers watch all 22 players on the field.

(Although Seattle's Matt Hasselbeck enhances his film study with television footage.)

Players and coaches can zoom out to study teams working together or zoom in on individual players. Section E of the Miscellaneous rules in the NFL’s Policy Manual for Member Clubs Volume II 2007 Edition reads that “club videographers have to shoot the scoreboard prior to each play,” just as Estrella did.

This establishes each play’s situation—the down, distance, and time remaining. Using film, coaches and players can study the strengths and weaknesses of themselves and their opponents. Film also allows teams to study tendencies, plays, tactics, and strategies.

Computers enhance film study of tendencies. Teams upload video to computers which reveals what opponents usually do in certain situations. Teams aren’t allowed to watch the video or use the computers during games, but they can study them between games.

There's a youtube video showing how one college team makes game film. Film study is often supplemented by signing and questioning players cut by upcoming opponents.

In “Spreading the Word Is No Secret In the NFL” (The New York Times, October 26, 2008, it’s revealed that such players sometimes reveal the meaning of their former teams’ signals and audibles to their new teams.

The Patriots sparked outrage by filming Jets’ coaching signals rather than just their players. (Yet, somehow it’s perfectly fine if one of that team’s former players simply tells you what all the signals mean.)

Teams have long studied signals and tried to decipher them. NFL rules allow this practice. In turn, teams take countermeasures to protect signals. They can change the meaning of their signals. They can have people screening their signalers from eyes on the opposing sideline.

Often, they have multiple coaches signaling at the same time with their own players knowing which coach to watch, or they can hope their opponent doesn’t decipher them.

Starting in 1994, calling offensive plays became simpler. New rules allowed coaches to call plays through a radio in the quarterback’s helmet. This method makes hand signals unnecessary although teams still have them in case of an emergency. Coaches simply hold laminated sheets in front of their mouths to guard against lip readers.

In football’s early days, players often called their own plays, leaving no coaching signals for opponents to decode. In the 1920s, some players, like George Halas and Curly Lambeau served as player/coaches and played three ways: on offense, defense, and special teams.

Is it safe to assume they called plays on the field?

As late as the 1960s and 70s, many quarterbacks still called their own plays. By this time, however, some coaches called plays from the sideline. For instance, the Packers’ Vince Lombardi had quarterback Bart Starr call most of the offensive plays, but the Packers called defensive plays from the sideline.

(See, “Dinner Conversation with Vince Lombardi” from The Vince Lombardi Scrapbook by George Flynn, Grosset & Dunlap, New York, 1976, pgs. 17-18.).

Paul Brown coached the Browns from 1946-1963 and introduced many innovations to the game. Brown preferred calling plays from the sideline. He experimented with radio helmets for quarterbacks, but the league banned them until 1994. (Starting in 2008, the league allowed defensive players to wear similar helmets.)

In one game before the ban, Tom Landry—a Giants assistant who later became a Hall of Fame coach for the Cowboys—tuned into the Browns’ radio frequency, allowing him to call the right defensive plays.

The Giants won.

(See “Sacks, Lies and Videotape” by Mark Bowden, The New York Times, Sunday May 18, 2008.)

Brown also sent plays in with substitute players, “shuttle guards.” This also bypassed hand signs. By the mid to late 1980s, it was rare for quarterbacks to call their own plays. Coaches called them from the sideline often using hand signals which opponents could also see.

In a 1990's article about football terminology, Pro Football Weekly discussed hand signals.

Electronic and other kinds of subterfuge likewise have a long NFL history. The NFC Championship trophy is named after George Halas. For 63 years, Halas owned the Chicago Bears. For 40 of those years, he coached them, winning 324 games (still the second most in NFL history) and six NFL Championships.

During his ownership, the team won a total of eight NFL titles. An innovator who pioneered the use of game film, Halas also had a reputation for espionage. Rivals and reporters claimed that he bugged locker rooms, coaches’ boxes, and teams’ phone systems. They said he had spies watch practices.

In fact, Fido Murphy, a Bears’ scout who also worked for the Steelers, once admitted to having a kid watch a Rams’ practice. The kid hid under the scoreboard, studying the defense. Murphy passed the information to Bears’ coaches and advised them on countering the defense.

After George Allen, a Halas assistant and father of former Senator George Allen, left Halas’s staff, he gained a reputation for “paranoia” about other teams spying, especially Halas’s Bears. Allen worried about electronic bugs in offices and locker rooms and about spies watching practices.

He even hired a detective, Ed Boyton, for counter-surveillance. The NFL now bans many surveillance methods like bugging field phones.

It’s not known when someone first filmed coaching signals. It goes back at least to 1990 when Marty Schottenheimer coached Kansas City. Both on a Fox pregame show and on WFAN, a New York radio station, Jimmy Johnson, who coached the Dallas Cowboys to two Super Bowl Championships, said he also had staffers tape opposing coaches.

Johnson said teams could tape signals from the press box, but sometimes the press box was on the wrong side of the field. In that case, the cameraman filmed from the sidelines. Johnson, who also had interns search other teams’ trash for discarded notes and game plans, said taping coaches wasn’t worth the effort and abandoned it.

Johnson learned the procedure in 1990 from Mark Hatley, a Kansas Cityscout, who taught him how Marty Schottenheimer’s Chiefs did it. Johnson praised one Schottenheimer assistant, Howard Mudd, as “the best in the entire league at stealing signals.” During much of the current decade, including their Super Bowl year, Mudd worked for the Indianapolis Colts.

One of Belichick’s fiercest Spygate critics and Mudd’s boss from 2002-2008 with the Colts, Tony Dungy, also served on Schottenheimer’s Kansas City staff. Other notable Schottenheimer assistants in Kansas City include Herm Edwards, who later served as the Jets' head coach before returning to the Chiefs in that capacity.

Edwards was so familiar with taping tactics that he waved to the Patriots' camera recording him. Long time Steelers' coach Bill Cowher also worked for Schottenheimer in Kansas City. During his career,Schottenheimer also coached the Cleveland Browns, Washington Redskins, and San Diego Chargers.

During Schottenheimer’s first few seasons in Kansas City, offenses still used hand signals too, meaning his defense also benefited from deciphering signals.

The media reports as if filming opposing coaches is a violation of NFL rules. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell shares this belief and apparently based his punishment on it.

A September 6, 2006 memo from Ray Anderson, the NFL head of game operations, adds to this. However, the rules don’t support this belief. Anderson’s memo reads, “Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”

Unfortunately, the memo misquotes the rules, and Anderson can’t change the rules. Rule changes must be proposed to and voted on by the teams. The NFL cited the misquoted rules against the Patriots from pages A105-A106 of the league’s Policy Manual for Member Clubs Volume II: Game Operations 2007 edition.

Miscellaneous Rules and Regulations, Section A. reads, “No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches’ booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game.”

The league also cited a portion of section D against the Patriots. Section D reads, “To ensure the protection of equipment and employees of the teams’ video departments, please follow the guidelines listed for the video shooting booths at your stadium.”

The league quoted the first guideline against the Patriots, “All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.” The rules never prohibit filming coaches. The sections used against the Patriots only concern camera locations.

Anderson’s memo adds an emphasis on signals, which isn’t in the rules. Also, Anderson says that videotaping is prohibited from “any other locations accessible to club staff members.”

This isn’t in the rules either.

The rule mentions only three spots where teams can’t use video equipment during games—the coaches’ booth, the locker room, and the field. No rule bars teams from recording signals as long as they locate their cameras properly.

Despite this, Goodell and especially the media continue to portray signal taping as the problem when the only real issue is camera location.

Even the location technicality isn’t open and shut. Again, consider the differences between Anderson’s memo and the rules. We’ve already seen that Anderson’s any “location accessible to club staff members” isn’t in the rules.

(And if it were, how would staff film games as required?)

Of the three locations the rules actually mention, Anderson substitutes “sidelines” for “field.”

That’s important.

NFL rules seem to define “the field” as the area between the sidelines and the endlines. By that definition, a camera man standing out of bounds isn’t on the “field,” although the rule would stop teams from using helmet cameras like those which the networks sometimes use.

Also, using the Section D guideline about enclosed locations against the Patriots is disputable. The manual says the locations “ensure the protection of equipment and employees.” It doesn’t require teams to shoot from those locations. It only asks that teams provide them.

Defending himself, Bill Belichick said he interpreted the rules based on Article IX of The NFL Constitution and By-laws. Among other things, Article IX concerns videotaping. It reads, “Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game.”

This seems to ban all taping, but, as we’ve seen, the league has two pages of rules requiring teams to tape and exchange the recordings.

Isn’t that contradictory?

The NFL reconciles it by interpreting Article IX to mean that teams can film during games, but they can only use the recordings between games, not during them. Belichick applied this interpretation to ground level taping too.

Goodell disagreed.

Goodell’s ruling means he applies the Article IX interpretation to Sections B, C, E, and most of D in the Miscellaneous Rules, but to not Section A and the first guideline in Section D.

In contrast, Belichick applied it consistently.

Goodell, a former Jets employee, fined Belichick $500,000, the maximum allowed by The NFL Constitution and By-laws. He fined the team an additional $250,000 and stripped it of a draft pick conditional on where the team placed.

If the team made the playoffs, they lost a first round pick. If they didn’t, they lost second and third rounders. Interestingly, Goodell based his punishment on how well the team did without the camera. The better they did without it, the worse the punishment got.

If something is wrong, it’s wrong, is it not?

The punishment should be the same regardless of how well the team did without the camera. Besides, wouldn’t a strong performance without the camera prove the camera was less important than detractors thought, while a poor performance would have proved the filming was a big help?

So, why increase the punishment based on a good performance without the camera?

Rather than merely punishing the Patriots for the camera, it seems more like an extracurricular attempt to enforce parity, using a trumped up technicality as an excuse to seize a draft choice to balance additions like Moss and Welker, and to distract and demoralize a team primed to dominate.

Despite the controversy and distractions, the Patriots made the playoffs and lost their first rounder. It was higher than the picks stripped from the San Francisco 49ers or the Denver Broncos when they broke salary cap rules.

In this decade, New England selected several of their key players in the first round. They include starters Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren, Jerod Mayo, Logan Mankins, Ben Watson, Laurence Maroney, Brandon Meriweather, and the now departed Daniel Graham.

As a group, these players account for numerous individual honors including Pro Bowl and All-Pro selections. It’s true that New England got another first rounder in 2008, but that pick ultimately came from the loss of a Super Bowl MVP. When New England traded Deion Branch after his refusal to play and possible Jets’ tampering, they got a first round pick from Seattle in 2007 and traded their own pick for San Francisco’s 2008 pick.

So, Goodell’s punishment means that New England lost their compensation for Branch. They lost a pick that could have helped the team either as trade material or a player.

Roger Goodell’s handling of New England’s tapes worsened the controversy. Goodell originally intended to secure the tapes.

However, someone leaked them to Jay Glazer of Fox, and Fox showed portions on a pregame show. Goodell believed that if he secured the tapes and new copies emerged, it would prove that New England hadn’t turned over all their copies, paving the way for further punishment.

Also, despite believing the tapes provided little advantage, Goodell wanted to prevent New England and other teams from using them. So, when securing the tapes proved futile, Goodell destroyed them instead. Goodell’s arbitrary and pointless decision showed no appreciation for the tapes’ historical importance and a failure to foresee a predictable public reaction.

It didn’t even provide the security Goodell sought or aid any “cover-up” feared by fans because copies of the tapes survived Goodell’s decision. Jay Glazer of Fox still has his copies.

Maybe making the footage public would help restore public confidence. The league and Glazer could even put the footage on the NFL’s website under an arrangement where they’d both make money. Much of the hue and cry comes from claims that the evidence was destroyed and no one will ever see what was on the tapes.

But copies still exist. Let the public see the evidence!

On November 15, 2007, before the Patriots played the Philadelphia Eagles, Senator Arlen Specter, an Eagles fan, wrote to Goodell about the Spygate investigation. Goodell didn’t respond, so Specter wrote again on December 19, 2007.

Specter pressed Goodell about his previous questions and expressed new concerns, especially about the tapes’ destruction.

(See how making the copies public can help?)

Goodell still didn’t respond. Shortly before the Super Bowl, with New England trying for an undefeated season, Specter went public. Combined with another major accusation made in the Boston Herald, this created a last minute firestorm around the Patriots as they tried to focus on the biggest game in team history and one of the biggest in NFL history—a game they then lost.

On January 31, 2008, Goodell finally replied, claiming he’d only seen Senator’s Specter’s letter for the first time that day, and that he took steps to ensure faster future communications with Specter.

Goodell’s response showed poor command of detail. Speaking of the Eagles and Patriots he said that other than the Super Bowl, “The two teams had only played one other game against each other in the current decade, a preseason game in the summer of 2003.”

Goodell might not remember every game between the league’s 32 teams in the previous eight years, but that would be all the more reason to research the details before making a statement like that.

Goodell was wrong.

Counting the preseason, the teams met four times in two and-a-half years before the Super Bowl. The Commissioner’s inattention to detail here echoes his problems with the videotaping rules. Goodell’s misfire on publicly available, easily searchable facts raises questions about mistakes regarding less publicized information.

Specter wasn’t the only one making a Spygate splash just before Super Bowl XLII. The day before the game, a Boston Herald story claimed the Patriots taped a St. Louis Rams walkthrough before Super Bowl XXXVI.

(A walkthrough is a light, low intensity practice.)

Also, former Patriots video assistant Matt Walsh came forward, claiming he had relevant information and that the league hadn’t contacted him during its investigation. The media implied that Walsh had a Rams tape.

Also, the media apparently never bothered to find out if there even are rules against filming practices. In May 2008, after months of negotiations, Walsh finally met with Goodell. He only had tapes from 2000-2002, which he’d stolen from the team and which contained signals. He had no walkthrough tape and admitted he never made one.

Super Bowl practice areas bristle with cameras and swarm with media. Before a Super Bowl between the Buffalo Bills and the Cowboys, Dallas’s Jimmy Johnson saw the Bills practice a play designed to attack a Cowboy defensive tendency. Forewarned, Johnson’s assistants adjusted for it.

How did Johnson see it?

Because ESPN cameras kept rolling a few minutes after the Bills’ practice started and ESPN broadcasted it.

(See: “Patriots Spygate Story May Have More Episodes” by Mark Gaughan, The Buffalo News, February 10, 2008. Note that the article contains erroneous information about the Patriots admitting to taping only since 2006, and the NFL punishing them for taping only during that time frame.

In fact, the Patriots had admitted to taping since 2000, and Goodell punished them for that whole period. Gaughan got the Bills/Cowboys information from former Bills quarterback Jim Kelly. A USA Today article cites Johnson’s version. )

Walsh said he was present during the Rams’ walkthrough, setting up cameras as the league allows. The NFL investigation confirmed the camera didn’t have a battery pack, so Walsh couldn’t have recorded. Walsh denied he was behind the rumors about the tape.

The Boston Herald apologized and blamed improper sourcing. Combined with what happened to the Bills, the fear that teams could film practices should prompt preemptive measures.

Why not allow teams to conduct pre-Super Bowl practices in media free facilities with no cameras or other recording devices set up except by the practicing team?

The league has shown no interest in such safeguards and neither has the media. Concern about such taping suddenly shot up when it made a great pregame distraction, and vanished when Walsh didn’t have a smoking gun.

In the end, Spygate seems like those stories where the headline screams, “Starlet Goes Out in the Buff,” but the story is actually about her not wearing makeup.

Her face was naked, get it?

In other words, the media and the league took a camera placement technicality and blew it out of proportion. It’s legal for NFL teams to scout opponents’ signals, and no rule actually says teams can’t film them. Coaches started videotaping opponents’ signals before Bill Belichick even got his first head coaching job. There’s no blow against the game’s integrity here.

At worst, the Patriots might have violated a camera location technicality, and even that’s disputable. The real problem is not what the Patriots shot, but where they shot from.

Just because fans spurred by media demagogues weren’t sated, it doesn’t make Goodell’s punishment less Draconian. Also, it was sensible to assume, as Belichick did, that the Article IX interpretation uniformly applied to all of the videotaping rules.

New England’s possession of the 49ers’ first round pick might appear to offset the loss of their own pick, however they gained that pick through a chain of events resulting from the loss of Deion Branch.

Thus in losing a first round pick, the Patriots in effect lost a Super Bowl MVP still under contract to them without compensation. Belichick’s fine, the fine of the team, and worst of all, the highest draft pick ever docked amounts to a substantial punishment.

While Patriot haters wanted it to be worse, the punishment was far too harsh.

The league could have resolved the situation at an earlier date by simply speaking with New England about their concerns. Instead, the league played a game of “gotcha.”

Belichick’s actions are consistent with someone who believed he was following rules, making no attempt to conceal his use of a videotaping procedure used elsewhere before he even got his first head coaching job.

Belichick didn’t send Estrella out with an easily obtainable hidden camera. For seven years, he had cameramen stand in plain sight of other teams, thousands of fans, and television cameras. Critics voice dismay that the NFL didn’t follow a legal investigation’s standards.

These same critics often forget two of the most hallowed fundamentals of our democratic judicial system. One is protection from double jeopardy. Belichick and the Patriots have already been punished. Another is the prohibition against ex post facto laws.

In fact, this is worse than ex post facto. This is worse than punishing someone for taping before there was a rule against taping. The NFL still hasn’t added a rule against taping signals.

The NFL can improve the situation going forward. The league claims large portions of the rules are proprietary information. The playing rules are available to the public, but The NFL Constitution and By-Laws and The National Football League Policy Manual for Member Clubs aren’t.

The Spygate episode centers on rules from those two documents. The NFL should make them available. Post them online. Greater access to what the rules really say would have allowed for fairer discussion.

Also, why didn’t the league hold public hearings and allow an offseason appeal when the Patriots weren’t in the midst of preparing for games?

Goodell should never have destroyed the Patriots’ copies of the tapes. Fortunately, copies still exist. Make them available to the public. If the league wants integrity, the whole process should be clear and open to the public.

Did the league question Jimmy Johnson about videotaping?

Why not question Marty Schottenheimer and his former assistants including Bill Cowher, Herm Edwards, and Tony Dungy about the Chiefs’ videotaping practices and whether they did anything similar in other jobs?

The goal here is to get the truth, so they should have immunity from punishment in exchange for their answers. Since the practice didn’t originate with him, it would be interesting to know where Belichick learned it from.

The league should revise Article IX to reflect the interpretation which allows teams to make game film. Even with new rules allowing defenders to wear helmets with communication systems, if the league still doesn’t want teams filming opposing coaches, the league should write it into the rules and screen all material from teams' film.

Better yet, why not ban teams from all camera use and require NFL Films to make all game film?

Will the league ever take such steps?

Probably not.
From 2009: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1993 ... ing-parity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Ryan wrote:Fuck me for getting involved in this, but Belichick's original out was that the rule stated you couldn't record anything and use it in the same game.
No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game. All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead. Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game
Also mentioned in the ESPN clickbait piece from this morning was that the footage, etc. wasn't used in the current game.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Bleacher Report from 2009???!!!

All the best sourcing.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Jerloma wrote:A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
The mind fairly boggles.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Jerloma wrote:A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
Please tell me who these 90 people are.

Here's a nugget of truth from the incredibly well researched article:

"Friesz, who did not respond to messages to comment for this story, told Walsh after the game that the Patriots knew 75 percent of the Bucs' defenses before the snap. Now, the Patriots realized that they were on to something, a schematic edge that could allow their best minds more control on the field. "

The Pats surrendered 6 sacks in that game, and went 4-17 on third down, but realized they had stumbled upon a "schematic edge," does the typical reader go and investigate this? Nope. They take ESPN's supposed journalistic excellence at a word.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Jerloma wrote:A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
Please explain how all these sources have been kept under wraps until now.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Jerloma wrote:A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
Pultizer-Prize winning journalists are well known for their click-bait articles...
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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See, this is kind of what I was getting at with the original question. I really don't understand how taping of signals is some crazy act of subterfuge. Prior to the headsets, those signals would've been very easy to record from just about anywhere in the stadium. And this black ops-type activity is carried out by guys with tape over their patriots logos, or inside-out shirts??

WTF is that? How about, hey, don't wear your Patriots gear on Sunday, m'kay Matt?

I like how the Patriots are seen as exploiting the stupidity of other teams, and they have these braniacs down on the sidelines. Which, I guess does kind of prove the point.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Jerloma wrote:
brian wrote:So now the story is that Belichick continued to tape from unauthorized areas to troll the NFL?
Yeah Belichick's like that, dude. He'll do anything for a joke. Fun guy. He doesn't even care if it cost him a half mil and a 1st round draft pick.
Right? And as part of the joke, he kept that Adams guy around for 15 years, built a video collection editing the films down to just the signals and a notation of the play. Stealing the playbook with the first 20 plays scripted? Schoolboy pranks like a pantie raid at summer camp.

Plus Belichick said he didn't gain an advantage from the taping, so case closed.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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DaveInSeattle wrote:
Jerloma wrote:A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
Pultizer-Prize winning journalists are well known for their click-bait articles...
Doris Kearns Goodwin has a Pulitzer Prize. Not exactly that grand of an award.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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The Sybian wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
brian wrote:So now the story is that Belichick continued to tape from unauthorized areas to troll the NFL?
Yeah Belichick's like that, dude. He'll do anything for a joke. Fun guy. He doesn't even care if it cost him a half mil and a 1st round draft pick.
Right? And as part of the joke, he kept that Adams guy around for 15 years, built a video collection editing the films down to just the signals and a notation of the play. Stealing the playbook with the first 20 plays scripted? Schoolboy pranks like a pantie raid at summer camp.

Plus Belichick said he didn't gain an advantage from the taping, so case closed.
Really? This is supposedly so well known why is this the first we've heard of it? Don't you think that a team would have complained to NFL security, or I don't know not left playbooks around?

Also there is nothing fucking illegal about taping signals. It's been going on since they started filming fucking football games.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by BSF21 »

Rush2112 wrote:
DaveInSeattle wrote:
Jerloma wrote:A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
Pultizer-Prize winning journalists are well known for their click-bait articles...
Doris Kearns Goodwin has a Pulitzer Prize. Not exactly that grand of an award.
C'mon man.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by Rush2112 »

BSF21 wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:
DaveInSeattle wrote:
Jerloma wrote:A 90 source investigative report is now a fucking click-bait piece. I fucking can't.
Pultizer-Prize winning journalists are well known for their click-bait articles...
Doris Kearns Goodwin has a Pulitzer Prize. Not exactly that grand of an award.
C'mon man.
Sorry, I'm pissed...plus I fucking hate Doris Kearns Goodwin and her falsified stories of the Roosevelts.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Post by DaveInSeattle »

Rush2112 wrote:
The Sybian wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
brian wrote:So now the story is that Belichick continued to tape from unauthorized areas to troll the NFL?
Yeah Belichick's like that, dude. He'll do anything for a joke. Fun guy. He doesn't even care if it cost him a half mil and a 1st round draft pick.
Right? And as part of the joke, he kept that Adams guy around for 15 years, built a video collection editing the films down to just the signals and a notation of the play. Stealing the playbook with the first 20 plays scripted? Schoolboy pranks like a pantie raid at summer camp.

Plus Belichick said he didn't gain an advantage from the taping, so case closed.
Really? This is supposedly so well known why is this the first we've heard of it? Don't you think that a team would have complained to NFL security, or I don't know not left playbooks around?

Also there is nothing fucking illegal about taping signals. It's been going on since they started filming fucking football games.
Call me a polly-anna...but whatever happened to that thing called "Sportsmanship"? Or is that completely passe these days?

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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Rush2112 wrote:
The Sybian wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
brian wrote:So now the story is that Belichick continued to tape from unauthorized areas to troll the NFL?
Yeah Belichick's like that, dude. He'll do anything for a joke. Fun guy. He doesn't even care if it cost him a half mil and a 1st round draft pick.
Right? And as part of the joke, he kept that Adams guy around for 15 years, built a video collection editing the films down to just the signals and a notation of the play. Stealing the playbook with the first 20 plays scripted? Schoolboy pranks like a pantie raid at summer camp.

Plus Belichick said he didn't gain an advantage from the taping, so case closed.
Really? This is supposedly so well known why is this the first we've heard of it? Don't you think that a team would have complained to NFL security, or I don't know not left playbooks around?
Because your boy...the one who you've complaining put out a witch-hunt on your team for the past 6 months, covered it up.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Jerloma wrote:
Because your boy...the one who you've complaining put out a witch-hunt on your team for the past 6 months, covered it up.
Ah yes, Goodell.

Funny how the only names mentioned are Bill Polian and Matt Walsh, everyone else anonymous or refused to return calls yet Goodell, who is inept at everything but bringing in money is keeping all of these sources quiet until now.

Instead of quoting Walsh and Polian they should have just repeatedly just posted pictures of salt.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Everyone just haters and losers.
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Rush2112 wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
Because your boy...the one who you've complaining put out a witch-hunt on your team for the past 6 months, covered it up.
Ah yes, Goodell.

Funny how the only names mentioned are Bill Polian and Matt Walsh, everyone else anonymous or refused to return calls yet Goodell, who is inept at everything but bringing in money is keeping all of these sources quiet until now.

Instead of quoting Walsh and Polian they should have just repeatedly just posted pictures of salt.
Martz? You don't believe the part about Goodell asking Martz to release a statement exonerating the Patriots?
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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brian wrote:Everyone just haters and losers.

Weird I sort of remember a post the day after the Patriots lost to the Giants that was posted by someguy that had a username like BrianDTW or something that basically consisted of HAHA for about 10 lines of text. Related to you by any chance?
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Jerloma wrote:
Martz? You don't believe the part about Goodell asking Martz to release a statement exonerating the Patriots?
Martz said he provided a statement to the NFL, one that ESPN printed in full. In the statement that appeared attributed to Martz, he said it looked far different (edited? rewritten?) than the one he remembered giving the league.

“It shocked me,” Martz said to ESPN. “It appears embellished quite a bit — some lines I know I didn’t write. Who changed it? I don’t know.”
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Re: AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

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Puberty was shorter than this thread.
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