Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

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Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by duff » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:07 am

Just thought it would be nice to create a place for you old timers to discuss music. Just please give us back our movies thread.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by sancarlos » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:35 am

I'm sad I didn't get included.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by duff » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:57 am

I had you included in the initial post, but took you out.
To quote both Bruce Prichard and Tony Schiavone, "Fuck Duff Meltzer."

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by howard » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:21 pm

i think we are talked out for the time being
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by mister d » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:42 pm

Maybe you'll have more energy after supper? See you around 3:45?
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by HDO45331 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:10 pm

Get the fuck off my lawn.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:31 pm


I thought this was pretty good for a post-Chaplin movie. Shakespearean. In a watch-while-working-out sense only, of course. Can't wait for the sequel.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by sancarlos » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:42 pm

I thought I'd post this one in honor of HDO joining us here at the old folks home...

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by Rush2112 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:37 pm

Whatever whippersnappers.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by howard » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:01 pm

OK, fine. Best record ever. ff to 7:44 if you're in a hurry.

Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:03 pm



Nothing can match the original. But this is a pretty nice version, forty years later. Part I.
Last edited by DC47 on Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:08 pm



And part II.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by howard » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:33 pm

Decades ago, Boz stopped playing the lead on LMAD in concert, handing it off to a sideman, because he didn't have the fingerspeed of his youth. Then, sometime in the '00s he realized people didn't want to hear him try to sound like Skydog, but they did want to hear him play it.

Boz was never a virtuoso, but he was nice back when we were all young. One show around '75, he brought out Steve Miller for a couple of tunes, and nearly played 'Guitar' Miller off the damn stage.

Damn, but young Derek can play.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DaveInSeattle » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:27 pm

When's the new Scott Joplin ragtime album coming out?

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:23 pm

No idea. I can't keep track of all this new stuff. If it doesn't have a washtub bass, it's not the real deal.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:26 pm

howard wrote:Decades ago, Boz stopped playing the lead on LMAD in concert, handing it off to a sideman, because he didn't have the fingerspeed of his youth. Then, sometime in the '00s he realized people didn't want to hear him try to sound like Skydog, but they did want to hear him play it.

Boz was never a virtuoso, but he was nice back when we were all young. One show around '75, he brought out Steve Miller for a couple of tunes, and nearly played 'Guitar' Miller off the damn stage.

Damn, but young Derek can play.
I blame Porcaro and Paich and that lowdown lot. You're just lucky Boz didn't become the lead singer for Toto. Or marry Cher.

Oh. Guess someone else fell in that direction.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by howard » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:30 pm

DC47 wrote: You're just lucky Boz didn't become the lead singer for Toto.

This is my nightmare alternative history scenario
Or marry Cher.

Oh. Guess someone else fell in that direction.
Les Dudek dated Cher. So, he missed out on joining Journey, and on that.
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:34 pm

howard wrote:
DC47 wrote: You're just lucky Boz didn't become the lead singer for Toto.

This is my nightmare alternative history scenario
If this had happened, Hitler would have won the war.
Or marry Cher.

Oh. Guess someone else fell in that direction.
Les Dudek dated Cher. So, he missed out on joining Journey, and on that.
Didn't know that. Before, during, or after the marriage with Gregg?

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:36 pm

SC, that's a great Burrito's track. They've got an amazing following these days -- probably a bigger on than they had back when Gram was alive. I can't think of another band in this class. What turned you on to them?

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by sancarlos » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:41 pm

DC47 wrote:SC, that's a great Burrito's track. They've got an amazing following these days -- probably a bigger on than they had back when Gram was alive. I can't think of another band in this class. What turned you on to them?
I was late to the game with Gram and the Burritos, but let's start at the beginning. So, I was in high school in the 70's (class of '77). Country rock was the big thing where I grew up, even though I was more of a hard rocker (bands like UFO, Aerosmith, Foghat, ACDC...) In a town where we had five radio stations total FM+AM, two of them were country, which is what my dad listened to. So, I was exposed to a lot of stuff. Bands like Poco, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Ozark Mountain Daredevils, Amazing Rhythm Aces, Emmylou - they all came through town, and even though I was always a rocker first, I came to appreciate country more, and we all went to any and every concert in GJ, regardless of genre. I was aware of the Burritos and Gram, but they were long gone by then, and I hadn't gotten into them, yet. Then, came punk, and I really liked the Ramones, Pistols, Eddie and the Hot Rods, the Clash, the Undertones, Buzzcocks, etc.) Then, it started coalescing in the 80s - first with cowpunk bands like the Beat Farmers, Long Ryders and Jason and the Scorchers. Then, later as we slid into the 90s, you had the No Depression/Outlaw Country stuff like Steve Earle, Uncle Tupelo and the Jayhawks, etc. I loved the fact that punk and country and rock were fusing together. And, I found out that all these bands worshipped Gram Parsons. I was already quite familiar with some of his contemporaries, knew the stories about him and Keith, him and Hillman and McGuinn, but not that much else about Gram. So, as I often did, I went to the library and checked out a raft of CDs - the Burritos, and his solo stuff, and Sweethearts of the Rodeo by the Byrds, and mainlined it. I read a couple great biographies on him by Ben Fong-Torres and by Sid Griffin (of the Long Ryders). And, I was then really a devotee of the alt. country genre, and when I went to a convention in Palm Desert with my wife, I talked her into driving into Joshua Tree National Park and finding the memorial to Gram, where his manager burned his body and tried to bury him. We did find it, and that was very cool. So, now, in addition to Gram's catalogue, I own a couple tribute albums of his songs, too. A lot of people have done awesome covers of his songs, most notably Emmylou. My favorite of the tribute albums is called "Return of the Grievous Angel", and was organized by Emmylou Harris, and includes covers by such people as Wilco, Lucinda Williams, Whiskeytown (Ryan Adams), and Chris Hillman/Steve Earle. It's not on that album, but here's a great cover of a Gram song, by Dwight Yoakum and k.d. lang.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:04 am

That's quite a journey. You're a high priest in the cult.

My path was simpler and more direct. I was deeply into the Byrds, going back to when they were making a living off Dylan covers. Then, lots of changes. In many ways, the Byrds and the Burritos were intertwined. Quite a few guys played in both, and others played on a track or two of one band while being in the other.

As you know, Gram was with the Byrds for a very short time -- a few months? -- of controversial personnel changes and recording country songs when this was dangerous to your existence as a commercially viable rock band. I think the chaos was so complete that they ended up scrubbing his lead vocals from some of what became "Sweetheart of the Rodeo." Thanks to late-night NYC progressive FM radio I heard the Byrds deep cuts when they dove into the country direction and stopped being hit-makers. I always liked country, so that interested me. Perhaps it was that my dad's side was from Kentucky and I grew up listening to stuff like Tennessee Ernie Ford. I probably read some reviews in Rolling Stone or the Village Voice so I had some kind of vague awareness of Gram departing from the Byrds and setting up his own shop. Maybe I heard a few tunes, but I can't say I was following his music in real time.

Circa 1974 I had dropped out of high school and was working in a restaurant while failing to make it as a jazz musician. After we'd close the place, we'd head for someone's apartment to smoke and play records. One guy had a couple Burrito Brothers albums. I dug them. Also, Commander Cody, Poco, Kinky Friedman, Merle Haggard, and others. Dickey Betts played with a lot of country influence. I could hear it in Chuck Berry and Marshall Tucker too. The Dead dove in deep there for awhile around the 'Mars Hotel' era. NRPS. NGDB. Emmylou.

I saw a few of these groups in concert, including the Eagles when they toured behind their first album. They were so into country that they did one number with four banjos. I went to a few bluegrass festivals and started listening to progressive bluegrass, such as various Peter Rowan bands. Of all the country-rock outfits -- and they spread like wildfire -- I liked the early Burritos the best. They had the best originals, strong musicianship, incredible steel guitar work by Sneaky Pete, and the most soul. It wasn't just Gram Parsons, but of course he was at the heart of it.

By '78 or so I was living in a commune in Northern California and playing bluegrass guitar. More Parsons/Burrito material kept surfacing, and I listened to it all. Even the post-Parsons Burrito concert bootlegs that were mostly pretty weak. Progressive Bay Area radio stations played it -- it wasn't all Huey Lewis and guys with thin ties. But equally influential were the local musicians I knew, mostly from the construction trades where they worked to survive. There was a lot of respect for this odd Parsons/Burrito Brothers aggregation that never made it.

Ex-Byrd Gene Parsons -- no relation to Gram -- lived back in the NorCal woods and would play in local bars. He was a strong country-rock voice from back in the day, playing with the Byrds perhaps just after Gram Parsons. Gene was brought into the band by my favorite Byrd -- bluegrass guitar ace Clarence White. Gene went on to play in the Burritos, where as with the Byrds, he followed Gram Parsons. Gene is a very interesting guy, as well as a talented multi-instrumentalist. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1JVKr4EhAM for brief comments on Gram. I think that's his Mendocino County machine shop in the background, where he customizes guitars. He produces the unique string-bending device of his own invention, made famous by Clarence White on Byrds albums before his tragic, early death.

There is so much material from Parsons solo projects and live shows and various incarnations of the Burrito Brothers out there now. Of course, a lot of it is crap. Or worse. With so much out, the bad stuff isn't edited out. And Parsons was out of his mind much of the time, so he wasn't exactly editing himself back then. But if you wade through the weak performances, there are a lot of gems. And vision. Back when 'country rock' meant nothing but career failure and bar fights. Gram Parsons really had the vision, and pursued it in a pretty pure manner. Perhaps if he had lived he would have been playing in Toto too. But perhaps not. I choose to think the latter.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by Pruitt » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:51 am



I wonder what these old blues guys felt when they started playing for crowds of young white hipsters.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by sancarlos » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:12 am

Great post, DC. You've got a hell of an interesting background.

Pruitt - from what I've read, the old blues guys were somewhat bemused, but if they were lucky enough to cash in and finally make some money off the renewed interest in the blues by the white kids, then, hell they loved that. (Of course, the ones who were ripped off were less bemused.) Howling Wolf did an album with some of the Rolling Stones (which I own), and I read that album sold more copies than the total he had sold in his career up to that point.

In his later years, John Lee Hooker lived in Redwood City, which is the next town over from San Carlos (and DaveinSeattle's hometown), and he would play all over the Bay Area until his health got bad. He owned a bar in San Francisco that played live blues and was located just a block from the Fillmore - called "The Boom Boom Room", after the song, and it is still going. I saw him a couple times, and the audiences were always 95% white. Interestingly, one of the office admins where I worked had a young son who was a local blues guitar prodigy. John Lee took the kid under his wing, mentored him and let him play at his shows. So, she made sure the office knew about it whenever he was playing nearby.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by The Sybian » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:21 pm

Pruitt wrote:
I wonder what these old blues guys felt when they started playing for crowds of young white hipsters.
Holy fuck, what kind of drugs are those kids on? The guy at 1:14 and the girl he is dancing with who comes on 5 seconds later. This video is fantastic. I love the look of confusion as they try to figure out what they are listening to and how to attempt to dance to it.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by HDO45331 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:09 pm

I love this thread.

The first time I heard the Flying Burrito Brothers was at a lawn party, off campus, when I was at Miami OH. Large Marantz speakers were in both windows of the apartment, and were turned up. They played Last of the Red Hot Burritos, and a friend talked to me about the band, track by track. One side was influenced by Parsons, while the other was Hillman. This was an amazing album, going from driving rock to folk to bluegrass. That is the point in time where I really got into bluegrass. The fiddle player was a multi year champion.

Shortly afterwards, Steven Stills and Manassas first album (double) was released. Manassas included a couple of the FBB. (Hillman and Perkins?) That was a musical religious experience for me.

Lately, I have gotten into Austin musicians, like Guy Clark, James McMurtry, and Gary Clark Jr. AB the White helped get me into Guy Clark, and I thank him for that.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:57 pm

Nice story about Hooker, SC.

HDO, when was that lawn party? I'm with you on McMurtry. He seems like an undiscovered gem.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:10 pm

One of the things that struck me about the early Burritos and Parsons was that they were a lot more country than most of the country-rock bands that shortly followed. I wonder if this was a factor in both their non-acceptance in the early 70s and their staying power?

They were too country, at the time, to get much airplay on FM rock stations. And that was a key to breaking a band back then. It's hard to imagine today, but 'country' had pretty strong negative connotations with a high percentage of the young people who made up much of the music market. It meant artistically stodgy and culturally and politically conservative. And no one wanted to be identified that way back then. It was very different than today, when hybridization is so trendy in the music business, and there are no widely stigmatized genres that I can think of.

But to at least some extent, I think it was staying close to the taboo-laden country side of the country-rock spectrum that has given the music of the Burritos and Parsons a lot of its staying power. It's what made it more authentic and grounded in an older style of music than rock. It made it more unusual as well.

No doubt the death of Parsons has added some helpful mystique that gives his music some added power today. And having Emmylou be a Parsons ambassador for the past 40 years helps a bit as well. But the very serious country leanings of Gram Parsons were the real deal. it takes more than a crying pedal steel or a fiddle overdub to be real country music. Parsons was pretty real. Most other country-rock bands, not so much. I think this is at the core -- in addition to Parsons just being good at the music thing -- at the long-term popularity of his music.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:47 pm



This here would be country.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:08 pm



One of the great Gram Parsons songs. This was cut in 1968 by the Byrds, with McGuinn on banjo, Hillman on bass, and Kevin Kelly on drums. Terrific session players Lloyd Green on pedal steel and John Hartford on fiddle nail this to the country end of the spectrum. Parsons does the lead vocal and plays acoustic guitar and piano.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by sancarlos » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:30 pm

It's great that you've got the version with Gram singing. As you noted, the Byrds wiped him off the original album, but kept the songs he wrote. Hickory Wind was such a classic Gram song that one of the biographies I mentioned was titled the same.

And, I have to chuckle over your compliment calling me the high priest of the cult. I was pretty cultish there for awhile, but my history with Burritos music compared with you and HDO? You guys are the high priests. I'm just the altar boy.

Image
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:31 pm



The legendary Everly Brothers cut a sublimely beautiful version of this Boudleaux Bryant song in the early 60s. Roy Orbison covered it. But this version, cut in 1973 just before Gram Parsons death, is my favorite. Heartbreak just seeps from this track. It's offered considerable comfort to me in times of trouble.

What great musicianship! Al Perkins' sweet pedal steel is the lead instrument. There's some nice bass playing by Emory Gordy, Jr. and tasteful drumming by Ronnie Tutt. James Burton plays electric guitar, Herb Pederson is on acoustic. Session legends all.

But, yeah, Gram and Emmylou. This is what duet vocals are all about.

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:36 pm

sancarlos wrote:It's great that you've got the version with Gram singing. As you noted, the Byrds wiped him off the original album, but kept the songs he wrote. That was such a classic Gram song that one of the biographies I mentioned was titled the same.
I'm pretty sure that Gram's vocals were wiped from only part of the original album master, due to a contract issue. But I believe this song went out with his vocal intact. I can't recall a version with McGuinn or Hillman doing the lead, and they were the only Byrds left, after a few years of people being fired or quitting, who did vocals. But I may be wrong about this.
And, I have to chuckle over your compliment calling me the high priest of the cult. I was pretty cultish there for awhile, but my history with Burritos music compared with you and HDO? You guys are the high priests. I'm just the altar boy.
Hey, I was pretty early into the music. But I haven't read any Parsons books or been to the cremation site. And you even got your wife to go with you!

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by sancarlos » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:37 pm

I joke with my wife that the only two women I'd leave her for are Chrissy Hynde and Emmylou Harris.

And, let me third the shoutout for James McMurtry. I've never seen him live and really want to. My favorite "Texas music" guy is Robert Earl Keen, and he's done a couple excellent covers of McMurtry songs. Besides who HDO mentioned, other Texas guys I love are Joe Ely, Lyle Lovett and Steve Earle.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by howard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:39 pm

My music fan path is very different, and I am a piker wrt country rock and related styles.

Briefly I'll fill in my story. I was strictly rock and roll through high school. A little Motown/Stax on the radio when I was young in Los Angeles, before moving to the all white college town in norcal at age 10. High school friends into rock, album-oriented FM radio of the early 70s and the college radio station dominated my ears.

In college I branched out, saw my first blues show, Charlie Musslewhite, and later Lisa and her boyfriend did shows with John Lee Hooker, and Big Mama Thornton. I saw Emmylou a couple of times, and that led me to Gram, and country rock beyond the Allmans and Lynyrd Skynyrd. I also went through a brief jazz phase in college, combing the library for alternative takes of Parker or Miles sessions.

But aside from Tower of Power (the first show my parents let me go to in high school), I ventured little from rock until my late 20s. Been back filling since.
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by sancarlos » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:42 pm

Way too humble, howard. You could have branched out a bit and given us a whole page.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by howard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:51 pm

I've already given the highlights in the other thread. When Lisa and Scott were promoting shows in our college years, '77-80, my musical world exploded; I worked tons of shows, met all those rockers. Plus, while we were in high school, Scott's older brother was station manager of the college radio station and had hundreds of records. He worked in radio, got us into shows, and he managed a bay area band, Little Roger and the Goosebumps, who are known for this ditty:

Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by Pruitt » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:55 pm

This song popped into my head today from God knows where.

Back in school, we used to have drunken singalongs to this one...

Got Big Lanes!

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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by HDO45331 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:35 pm

DC47 wrote:Nice story about Hooker, SC.

HDO, when was that lawn party? I'm with you on McMurtry. He seems like an undiscovered gem.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by HDO45331 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:37 pm

DC47 wrote:One of the things that struck me about the early Burritos and Parsons was that they were a lot more country than most of the country-rock bands that shortly followed. I wonder if this was a factor in both their non-acceptance in the early 70s and their staying power?

They were too country, at the time, to get much airplay on FM rock stations. And that was a key to breaking a band back then. It's hard to imagine today, but 'country' had pretty strong negative connotations with a high percentage of the young people who made up much of the music market. It meant artistically stodgy and culturally and politically conservative. And no one wanted to be identified that way back then. It was very different than today, when hybridization is so trendy in the music business, and there are no widely stigmatized genres that I can think of.

But to at least some extent, I think it was staying close to the taboo-laden country side of the country-rock spectrum that has given the music of the Burritos and Parsons a lot of its staying power. It's what made it more authentic and grounded in an older style of music than rock. It made it more unusual as well.

No doubt the death of Parsons has added some helpful mystique that gives his music some added power today. And having Emmylou be a Parsons ambassador for the past 40 years helps a bit as well. But the very serious country leanings of Gram Parsons were the real deal. it takes more than a crying pedal steel or a fiddle overdub to be real country music. Parsons was pretty real. Most other country-rock bands, not so much. I think this is at the core -- in addition to Parsons just being good at the music thing -- at the long-term popularity of his music.
Well, the Rolling Stones wrote Wild Horses for GP.
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Re: Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

Post by DC47 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:00 pm

I know Parsons and Richards spent time together while the Stones were in America. And Parsons cut a version of Wild Horses that was released first. But in what sense did Keith and Mick write it for him?

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