More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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rass wrote:Not sure how this is going to turn out. I think I just need to write this out to figure out how I feel.

We’re in the middle of the oldest daughter’s second year of travel soccer. U-10 team, local club based in town, in a league of similar town-based clubs, with the league one of 7 or 8 under the larger umbrella of NJ Youth Soccer. And I think the team is about to implode, if not this winter break then after the spring season.

OK, that got way too long. Short story, a rightfully frustrated dad of a rightfully frustrated player on my daughter’s team is going to try to start a second U-10 girls travel team for spring play. Losing that player will be bad enough, but I’m sure at least two other families on our team would jump ship without even thinking it through fully. Plus there is the specter of the calendar birth year re-alignment, which would cost us three players (including goalie #1 and our top scorer) if/when it happens. I think we would prefer this guy as coach, but would likely hold my daughter to her commitment to the current team through the spring season, then maybe give her a choice. Or, while I’m biased, I also think she’s good enough that we could find another club or academy to take out money to let her play for them. Who knows. However, I really doubt he can find 8+ girls to play at all, much less 8+ quality players, just based on the lack of players at tryouts. Either way, if he makes this move I can’t see his kid being back, and it could get real ugly if the other parents try to leave, too.

Long story:
This goes back to the initial tryouts when the team was first being formed during the spring of 2014. My daughter was part of the core of a rec team that had been together for a couple of seasons. They played well together, and at the end of that (undefeated) spring season the coach recommended that four of the girls (including my daughter and his) try out for the new U-9 girls team. He was the one forwarding us the information on the tryouts, including a last minute change in schedule. He also was apparently not reading the emails too carefully because he and his daughter showed up about an hour late for the tryouts. He now insists he had no desire to be the coach, and I can only take his word on that, but by that time the guy who ended up as (and still is) the coach had made his move and was all but in. More importantly, the rec coach’s daughter, despite clearly being more than skilled enough, did not make the team. My kid and the two others from the rec team did.

This sucked. It sucked for her. It sucked for dad. It sucked for the parents of kids who made the team who knew her, because it started our relationship with the new coach off on a sour note. And I don’t think it has recovered, or maybe it never would have been strong. First, the positives. He’s great interacting with the girls. He is dedicated, and he cares. I like the way he runs practices. Very skills and drills based, and not a lot of scrimmaging which I guess does bother some of the parents. The team has played well together, and earned a flight promotion in their first year playing together, even with a restructuring in our league this fall that saw them go from 11 teams per flight (playing each team once) to 6 teams per flight (playing a home and home with each team). I think my daughter has greatly improved in the past year, and outside an issue I’ll get to in the negatives, has really enjoyed playing for him and for this team.

The negatives. He’s just a horrible communicator with anyone other than the kids. Imagine someone you know who gives the most terse, impersonal replies possible via email, and then imagine that’s how he often talks to the parents, too. Not all of the time, but often enough that everyone is on edge when they need to speak to him, because they never know if they’re going to get blown off or worse berated. He has refused offers to nominate a team manager or treasurer, though he has been (after repeated requests) been good about reporting the details of the team funds. He is pretty set with where he plays the girls in game. He’s clearly dedicated to giving his daughter time at forward, and especially this fall, no one other than her (and the other full-time forward, the assistant coach’s daughter) gets any meaningful time up front. Both girls and good, and work hard, but it’s very obvious, and for the girls who want the opportunity to play forward and their parents. My daughter has been slotted in a defensive role. She groused a bit early last season (she wanted to play mid so she could run more), but eventually realized she was (A) pretty damn good and (B) perhaps because of (A) very rarely left the field and she liked playing all game. He has generally used mid-field to hide the lesser skilled girls, and that is where the in game subs usually happen.

We had one girl, whose parents really didn’t get along with the coach, leave for an academy after the spring season (great family, that sucked). One other girl was not asked back. We picked up one other player, the rec coach’s daughter from up top who tried out again and could not be denied this time (that leaves us at 11, so three subs for 8x8, though we do have a player out for injury right now). She’s generally been placed in mid-field, which means she’s off and on the field. She’s played great, scored a hat-trick the one game she got time at forward (because of illness). Her dad understandably came into this season resenting the coach, and last night explained the full extent. He claims he knows for a fact (not sure how?) that the coach kept his daughter off the team last year because he was worried he (rec coach dad) would meddle with the coaching. Rec coach dad, being a rec coach and a dad with an older daughter who came through the club, is close with the club officials and I guess got this from them? That’s awful if true.

Coach apparently has a strict “no mid fielders past forwards, ever” rule during games, and that combined with the previous baggage and being played only at mid has the daughter not enjoying soccer, and rec coach dad feeling that too much of the game is geared toward giving the coach’s daughter (I should have used initials or something) a chance to star. So, he had her check out a couple of academies last month, got a verbal “she would make the team” from one, but went back to the town club to talk first. They gave him the option of starting his own team for the spring(?), rather than leaving, or trying to force the current coach out. He’s been scouting rec teams, and let his plan drop to some parents last night. He has not told the coach because he think it would affect his daughter’s playing time and treatment. I suggested the coach’s worry and actions about potential meddling became a self-fulfilling prophecy. He chuckled. There will most likely be blood.
HOLY shit. I'm just now reading this and my blood pressure just shot through the roof.

1) This guy is a real peach. He is what's wrong with youth soccer in America. I know you said in the positives that he's good with the girls, and I do give him credit for that. Too many male coaches don't understand that, especially at a young age, yelling at girls can quickly make them shutdown and hate the sport.

But crap on a cracker. First off, putting kids in one position on even a semi-permanent basis? At that age? Again, this is what's wrong. No one should be set in stone positionally... Earliest that should be going on is probably at the U14 or U15 level. We take a lot of pride in the fact that all of our girls made their high school programs, and a number of them did so in positions they didn't originally think they could play.

Example: Nicole was on the original Rec team and was with us when we moved up to the House travel team. Her dad was actually one of the two original coaches. Great guy who played soccer in high school but doesn't really "know the game." (I'm not sure why I put quotations around that, whatever.) He stepped down when we moved up and I took the co-coaching over. Well, turns out Nicole had already tried out and makes Bethesda (monster club), but on their C team. Nick and I are bummed, she's a good player, but we understand and part ways amicably.

Now, we pretty quickly prove we are ready for the next level and I LOOOOVE the brand of ball we are playing. Lots of triangle passing, looking to switch the field, great flanking runs and crosses in. And important to what we are talking about, kids are playing multiple positions and EVERYONE gets equal time. (We've never moved off of these principles.) And the positional stuff isn't just about morale... We believe they learn the game in a much deeper way when they see it from all of those different perspectives. (We put our goalies in the field as much as we can.)

Back to Nicole. She is now at the big "corporate" club and is miserable. She is stuck playing outside midfield, that's it. We had her up top, running the midfield, outside back... everywhere. After a year of Bethesda, she comes back and she's never looked back. She made varsity her freshman year, and this year (so.) she started and played just about every minute as one of the center backs in a 442. I gaurantee that by her senior year she's going to be All County and somewhere on the All Met list, possibly All State.

(Final, side note to all this: Dad/coach and Mom are extremely competitive and they view the most important position on the field to be striker. They spent years pushing her to play up top, and one of the reasons they were dissatisfied with Bethesda is they wouldn't put her up there. Now, we didn't mind playing her up there, but frankly felt she was having less of an impact up there... She's an amazing holding midfielder. It has been very funny watching the parents as Nick and I try note to do the "we told you so" about what we've been telling them for years.)
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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2) In addition to the positional stuff, putting restrictions on ANY players like that is just so counterproductive and just... WRONG. I mean, that just drives me nuts. We don't see it anymore, but one of the slices of Hell when we first got into WAGS and placed in the dreaded Provisional division is that we were playing teams where the opposing teams' defense never moved past their own 30 yard line. Congratulations coach, you have a) taken the joy out of the game for those 3 or 4 players, b) signaled that all you care about is winning a U11 game, and c) shot a flare over the field letting us know you don't know the game.

I'm assuming your guy was playing a 2-3-2? Even if it is a 2-2-3, that means he's leaving 4 at or behind the center line?? Gack. That's just horrible. I'm not even sure how that would work. And you say you guys were getting results? That's amazing.

3) The coaches daughter stuff is a HUGE red flag, obviously. That shit should not stand. Like I said before, and especially at that age, but really... Unless you are talking high school, or maybe at the very highest levels (ECNL-esque), if they are on your squad, they should all be seeing the field. First off, don't fuck with a little kids psyche unnecessarily. Secondly, you put them on the team, so unless you are in a talent poor area, don't select kids that you don't have faith in. Finally, you are creating unnecessary drama within the squad.

Our girls (and the parents) have no bullshit, no drama*, no pettiness... A huge reason for that is there's no pecking order and no jockeying for playing time or positions.

(* - I mean, they are now in high school so I'm sure there's under the surface shit going on, but in general we don't have any sense of it during training/games.)

I know having read through the thread that you guys are moving on from this guy, and I wish I had been able to help support what you were going to eventually do earlier. You can't far enough away from that guy, in my opinion. And if you have ANY say in how things are structured going forward, please try to guard against repeating what the other guy was doing. That rule about midfielders is just colossally dumb. You gotta trust that the goal is to develop the players. If that opens up the game... Yeah, that's what we want. That's the point. Get them to think and move fluidly, react to the situation. Play.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by rass »

Thanks man.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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rass wrote:Thanks man.

I fear I've said too much.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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Nonlinear FC wrote:
rass wrote:Thanks man.

I fear I've said too much.
Thanks for reading?
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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My daughter's old team should be officially done after a meeting this evening.

New coach (frustrated father from original long post) of "new" team has already sent out an email inviting us to join TeamSnap, and the new team name is....the Fury. I'm going to have to ask him if he picked that.

They also have an indoor practice on Saturday, and I couldn't help but notice that the current coach (and therefore his kid) was not on the distribution list. Courtesy (since the old team is not officially defunct), oversight, on purpose?
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by tennbengal »

As manager for my son's soccer team who sends a lot of soccer emails - totally on purpose.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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rass wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:
rass wrote:Thanks man.

I fear I've said too much.
Thanks for reading?

I was just giving myself shit for writing 5x what you wrote.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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First of all, before joining Rush, who gives all of its teams stupid Adidas related names (Azul, Nero, Weiß and some other color I don't remember because what club has 4 teams in the same damn age bracket), we were Fury FC.

And shit is going to bug you, maybe, but because we have a lot of Caps fans, our cheer before each half was Unleash... THE FURY... a la Tom Green style.

Secondly, yeah, totally on purpose and who could blame the guy. Bad blood in the parent ranks is a nightmare. When we recruit players, we make sure the kids are "good" kids. We've absolutely passed on very good players who came in with attitudes (pouty and aloof at a tryout is not gonna cut it with us, for example.) And our logic is that while we'll put up with pushy or obnoxious parents, the fact that the girl trying out is polite and respectful usually is enough of a filter to weed those kinds of people out.

Damn. Did it again.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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Don't worry man.

Deed is done. I thought old coach was super gracious. Less than half of the team showed up tonight. I sent a summary email out afterwards, and forced the issue of inviting the old coach's daughter to participate in practices for the new team. If they're going to exclude her because they don't like her dad, I want that to be admitted out in the open. For some reason.

Tomorrow we'll explain to the kid that she has a new team.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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The break-up of my daughter's old team seemingly went about as well as it could have gone. The prior coach appeared to take it in stride, the league said they would try to find his daughter a place to play, and the new team is up and running (first official practice last night), everyone (kids, parents, coaches) seems super happy. Except...

...$$$

There were some discrepancies with the final financial statements he gave us when the team was dissolved. I think I mentioned that that the old coach was acting as coach and treasurer, so everything went through him. When he distributed the funds when the team was dissolved, we were given a printed out copy of a spreadsheet, obviously hand-constructed, so not an official bank statement or even a Quickbooks report or something like that. While the statement purported to show all the ins and outs since the team was formed in July 2014, there were obvious transactions missing, most recently $200 that most of the team put in for indoor training this winter (the other missing transactions were cases where the money should have gone through him, into the account and then immediately back out in a wash, like for a tournament). In addition to the missing transactions, there was around $200 unaccounted for, but the league* recommended letting it go without proof of outright theft because it would just get so ugly. So OK.

There was also one last expense included, around $1300 for warm-up uniforms. The warm-ups themselves were a contentious issue, as he insisted on picking them himself. At one point, one of the parents had found someone willing to sponsor (fully) the purchase of the warm-ups in exchange for a bit of advertising on them (even the placement of the patch was something he complained about), but that was put on hold in early November when it became clear a second team might pop up. Some people were pissed this purchase was made, but I thought given the timing and that the old coach had no idea what was going on in regards to all this other stuff, it was OK.

HOWEVAH, one of the parents checked the website of the company the warm-ups were ordered from to investigate buying a couple of more for the new team members this spring, and found out that the total for the clothing that was purchased should have been about $540, not $1300. So he called the provider, and double-checked that there was no price change since November (no) and asked for a copy of the invoice sent to the old coach (pending). The same parent also emailed the old coach to explain what he had found and to ask if there was a simple explanation, and as of last night had not gotten a response. The parent who had the friend who was going to sponsor the girls is going to go back to him to make sure (A) he never really paid the coach for the unis and (B) to see if we can get a copy of the invoice the coach sent him.

So, with the other smaller discrepancy, we're up to almost $1000 unaccounted for. (with a whole shitload of unanswerable questions, like how much did the girls really earn at the multiple shake-a-cans they worked last year, since all money went through the coach)

Pending verification of all that this implies, some of the parents (hello rass' wife) are really pissed and want to go after him guns blazing. I don't know if it's worth it or not, certainly since if we expect to get any money back for the team from such a process we would need to get lawyers involved and who knows how that goes in terms of expenses. I would possibly be satisfied with making sure he knows we know he's a piece of shit, and giving this information to the league* and making sure he never coaches in town again.

*further disappointment in the league in that it seems to me it shouldn't be that hard to demand accountability from the teams in the forms of regular financials statements, but....
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by A_B »

Coach should never also be the treasurer, IMO.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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Wow. That is very fucked up. I think you could look into small claims and not have to get lawyers and associated fees involved, but I'm no expert and I assume that stuff varies from state to state/county to county.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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A_B wrote:Coach should never also be the treasurer, IMO.
Yeah.

Group dynamics are so weird. Like everyone knew this was not an ideal setup, and it was discussed and even sort of danced around with the coach, but no one wanted to take the lead on it since it can so easily be read as "we don't trust you to do this". Fucker.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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The guy who got stuck handling this just sent an email to the league detailing the almost $1900 discrepancy, and ended on this:
Our biggest concern is that our community, in good faith, provided us with an enormous amount of money and support for our fundraising efforts. We do not want a situation like this to call into question the integrity of U---- Soccer fundraising.

We leave this situation in your hands and are confident that it will be handled accordingly.
I liked it.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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Ahh. Uwchlan. Lovely.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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So the birth year decision was dealt with yesterday. The current (new, if you've been keeping up) coach has decided to keep the team at the age appropriate (2006 birth year, currently U-10) level. The girls of course, (informed after practice), are pretty devastated. There are 14 girls on the team right now, with two other practicing with them in preparation to fully join the team in the Fall. Of those 16 girls, 10 are 2006 (including the two part-timers) and 6 are 2005. My kid is 2006, though early in the year. The daughters of the coach and assistant coach are both 2006. They said they struggled with it, but in the end thought it was best for the team not to move it up to the 2005 birth year level when most of the players would be playing a year ahead, even if emotionally it would have been the easier decision.

The 2005 group includes the #1 goalie, one of their best forwards (she would maybe be the best if she wasn't so tiny) and two other very good players. They have a coach (one of the moms, who was an assistant coach the last 1.5 seasons), but will need to fill out the roster. There is no U-11 travel team in town right now, but there are some girls playing (or at least working out) with the U-12 team that can be pursued. The 2006 team would also need to pick up at least 2, probably more like 4, more girls. Someone will be scouting the rec league this Spring.

And...it didn't go over too well. Some parents were pissed the team isn't being kept together no matter what. Some parents expected a team vote. One mother had gone so far as to contact the president of the Mid-NJ league the team belongs to just to make sure kids were allowed to play up a year. The same mom suggested that if "a coach" (not "the coach") had a daughter that was a 2005 kid, then the whole theoretical team would be moving up, all but accusing the coach of just doing what was best for his kid at the expense of the team, though I'm not sure if she really meant it that way. The coaches said everyone is welcome to try out for (and likely make) the 2005 team, but they ask that the 2006 team be informed of such decisions as soon as possible.

I think I'm OK with it. I'm a little worried about the goalie situation on the remainder of the 2006 team (we walked back to our cars with the #2 goalie and her mom, and the daughter admitted she isn't sure she wants to continue playing at that position), but would rather have my kid play at the age appropriate level. I guess we need to be prepared to pivot on that if for whatever reason too many of the parents decide to send the kids up to the 2005 team. Frankly, if my kid and the head coach's kid don't go, none of the rest of them (maybe one excepted) have any business going either.

And just to wrap up my last post in the thread, the old coach apparently came up with enough receipts to get close enough to closing the gap between what he said the gear he bought cost on the statements he provided and what the retailer said they cost that the club felt it was good enough.


ETA: shots fired via email over disappointment on how the meeting was run and the decision was made...remind me to never be a volunteer youth sports coach...
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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While it's a tough call, I personally think that's an unfortunate decision. If the vast majority of clubs/teams just said "screw it, we're keeping our team in tact" a lot of this drama would just go away. As you know, this isn't really about the kids playing in down the ladder youth leagues, it's about aligning our national development academies with the national team age structure. F that noise.

=-=-=-=-=

ETA - We are not breaking up our WAGS team for the Fall. First off, we'll sit out anyways. But at our age group U16/U17, it's just not that big of a deal to play up at that point. It's not like we have a bunch of U15's playing up or something. Juniors playing other Juniors/Seniors is pretty much what they're doing in High School anyways. No need to go through the headache of recruiting and more importantly breaking up a team that's been together for 5+ years.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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Nonlinear FC wrote:
testuser2 wrote:That sounds like a mess and I'm not looking forward to it as the kids get older. Being stuck in rural PA doesn't give us many options. There is no local league that is competitive. We did local travel(Dubois, Clearfield, Altoona, etc...) and the games were not competitive. We now joined another club in Pittsburgh under their umbrella as a PA Classic team. Those have been slightly better. We also travel to open tournaments in the Philly/Harrisburg area.

The money is a big issue. It's a huge cost to spin up an official club. Fields, coaches, etc... Parents are also idiotic. They complain that the kids need to be in a competitive league, but some parents won't send their kids when they expect to lose. Some parents complain when other kids play a different sport for a season.

I used to coach/teach in Mont County. Whitman/Magruder. I still keep in touch with some AD's down there. Soccer was 3rd behind Lacrosse and Basketball in terms of craziness. Private schools and AAU were big contributors to the craziness.

Yeah, the thing is, unless you step into a coaching role, you'll be spared most of this bullshit. :D

And here's the really crazy thing... My daughter isn't likely to see a lot of time on the EDP team! She'll have the opportunity, but she's on the outside looking in.

We have a pretty good group of parents. But what surprises me is that so many of them just go along without really questioning things. We are helped out (massively) by how inexpensive our club fees are, especially in comparison to other club options.

Along those lines, what has been fascinating about the other coach is that he is risking an implosion of his squad. He is basically playing ostrich, hoping we go away. We are obviously not going away and word of the EDP situation will get out. When those parents start asking why a) their team didn't get it (they are in D4, we are in D5) and b) why their girls aren't part of the player pool... Shit is going to get ugly.
BTW, reading back in this thread... Our sister team is now coming to us, hat in hand, asking for guest players for Saturday. They lost 5-0 last week to a team that we have routinely beaten in tournaments and league play.

We told the other coach, you can't go into a season with 8 "solids" and a bunch of "maybes." We told him LAST YEAR that it would be in everyone's best interest if he just folded his team and sent his best to EDP (they are there anyways) and the rest could try out for our WAGS team. He literally ignored us.

Now he's asking us for 5(!) players for Saturday. I have my season opener on Sunday. Fuck you, dude.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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Final update: Our EDP squad came in first in a kind of slapped together Fall league and just won an EDP-level tournament last month. So, all is well on that front.

I have a lot more to say about how splitting up our squad into EDP and WAGS has played out, but I just called into a meeting. There have been a lot of really interesting and somewhat difficult situations that have come up.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by rass »

Nonlinear FC wrote:While it's a tough call, I personally think that's an unfortunate decision. If the vast majority of clubs/teams just said "screw it, we're keeping our team in tact" a lot of this drama would just go away. As you know, this isn't really about the kids playing in down the ladder youth leagues, it's about aligning our national development academies with the national team age structure. F that noise.

=-=-=-=-=

ETA - We are not breaking up our WAGS team for the Fall. First off, we'll sit out anyways. But at our age group U16/U17, it's just not that big of a deal to play up at that point. It's not like we have a bunch of U15's playing up or something. Juniors playing other Juniors/Seniors is pretty much what they're doing in High School anyways. No need to go through the headache of recruiting and more importantly breaking up a team that's been together for 5+ years.
Do you think it does make a difference when you're talking about a bunch of 11 year old kids against 12 year old kids?

Though I guess that brings up an interesting point, that if everyone (in our case, all other towns in the league) just chose to keep their current teams together and moved them up, it wouldn't matter. A lot of the other towns still have multiple travel teams per age level at this point (we only have one), so the rosters are probably more fluid season to season anyway. This may not be as big an emotional hurdle under those circumstances.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by tennbengal »

Quinn's team has 19 on its State Cup roster for MD - 8 2001s and 11 2002s. The ruling from the national types apparently is that the rankings etc. go with the older of the ages in this situation, so theoretically the rankings/points etc. with this team will go with the 2001s going forward. My son is a 2001. They are the second team at U14 in the Club. Our top U14 in my son's Club team is ranked #1 in state, #3 in region and #3 nationally. MD is ridiculously stacked at U14 boys, with 4 teams in the top 12 nationally including the defending national champs from last year (Baltimore Darby). My son's team had a very successful fall season, winning their level of EDP (7-0-1 record) and getting promoted for the spring to 2nd division EDP play (south division). They drew the #4 team in the state/#12 team in the country (Olney) for first round of State Cup last weekend, and pulled off what was by all accounts a massive upset - pretty much controlled the game, were down 1-0 at half and ended up winning 4-2. Will be in quarters in a few weeks and if they win that, likely will play the top team from our Club (all the kids know each other and the parents are friends) in State Cup semi-finals.

All of which is to say, it has been a wildly successful year so far for Quinn's team, with tons of good development, and it will likely be ripped apart come tryouts in June when the Club splits the team along age lines. It's really going to make me sad, as this team has built for years to this point, and just gonna be gone in an eye-blink over nothing. Just stupid. Will enjoy the ride until then and will have to see what comes next, but hate that it is even at this point. When you have a team having as much success as this one currently is, you want to see them play together for awhile, but, thanks for nothing, US Soccer.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by Nonlinear FC »

rass wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:While it's a tough call, I personally think that's an unfortunate decision. If the vast majority of clubs/teams just said "screw it, we're keeping our team in tact" a lot of this drama would just go away. As you know, this isn't really about the kids playing in down the ladder youth leagues, it's about aligning our national development academies with the national team age structure. F that noise.

=-=-=-=-=

ETA - We are not breaking up our WAGS team for the Fall. First off, we'll sit out anyways. But at our age group U16/U17, it's just not that big of a deal to play up at that point. It's not like we have a bunch of U15's playing up or something. Juniors playing other Juniors/Seniors is pretty much what they're doing in High School anyways. No need to go through the headache of recruiting and more importantly breaking up a team that's been together for 5+ years.
Do you think it does make a difference when you're talking about a bunch of 11 year old kids against 12 year old kids?

Though I guess that brings up an interesting point, that if everyone (in our case, all other towns in the league) just chose to keep their current teams together and moved them up, it wouldn't matter. A lot of the other towns still have multiple travel teams per age level at this point (we only have one), so the rosters are probably more fluid season to season anyway. This may not be as big an emotional hurdle under those circumstances.

TBH, it's been so long that I coached those ages that I'm not sure. There is definitely a point with both boys and girls where there is a wide gap even within a birth year in terms of size/athleticism. I think with girls that's probably in the 12/13 and 13/14 ages, and probably slide that scale up a year for boys (13/14 and 15/16).

But, yeah, there are definitely some leagues/regions I've heard of where they are basically saying that unless you are competing at the very highest level, the priority should be on keeping your teams in tact. But, as you know, the honor amongst thieves rules supreme... Once one coach figures he can game it to his advantage...
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

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tennbengal wrote:Quinn's team has 19 on its State Cup roster for MD - 8 2001s and 11 2002s. The ruling from the national types apparently is that the rankings etc. go with the older of the ages in this situation, so theoretically the rankings/points etc. with this team will go with the 2001s going forward. My son is a 2001. They are the second team at U14 in the Club. Our top U14 in my son's Club team is ranked #1 in state, #3 in region and #3 nationally. MD is ridiculously stacked at U14 boys, with 4 teams in the top 12 nationally including the defending national champs from last year (Baltimore Darby). My son's team had a very successful fall season, winning their level of EDP and getting promoted for the spring to 2nd division EDP play. They drew the #4 team in the state/#12 team in the country (Olney) for first round of State Cup last weekend, and pulled off what was by all accounts a massive upset - pretty much controlled the game, were down 1-0 at half and ended up winning 4-2. Will be in quarters in a few weeks and if they win that, likely will play the top team from our Club (all the kids know each other and the parents are friends) in State Cup semi-finals.

All of which is to say, it has been a wildly successful year so far for Quinn's team, with tons of good development, and it will likely be ripped apart come tryouts in June when the Club splits the team along age lines. It's really going to make me sad, as this team has built for years to this point, and just gonna be gone in an eye-blink over nothing. Just stupid. Will enjoy the ride until then and will have to see what comes next, but hate that it is even at this point. When you have a team having as much success as this one currently is, you want to see them play together for awhile, but, thanks for nothing, US Soccer.


That's awesome... That sucks.

When/where are the quarters? (Edit - NVM, I see it hasn't been scheduled yet.)

Our EDP lost 2-0 to a SAC team last weekend in the Cup. Definitely one of the best teams they've faced.

Your team is pretty much a perfect example of just how stupid this all is. One of the top teams in the state and they're going to be bounced around and torn up for no good reason.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by rass »

That sucks TB.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by tennbengal »

Yeah, it sucks hard, thanks guys.

A small part of me is holding out hope if we make State Cup semi-finals (and have a successful mid-table run in 2nd division EDP) the Club will try and keep enough of them together to hold the State Cup seed for next year. In Maryland, if you make State Cup semi-finals you are guaranteed of a top 4 seed following year as long as at least 60% of your roster returns from the previous year. That would mean at least 12 of our 19. Doubt Club will do that, but it may give them some pause. They are already over the moon that we knocked off Olney, so, maybe they will re-visit. Nothing is set in stone, but all indications are they are going to hew to USSF birth year wishes. This was the Club founded in part by Santino Quaranta (he's a really good guy by the way) and another local kid who played some in Brazil (Sean Rush) before starting this Club, and they have a soft spot for making sure they are are in line with USSF dictates. That said, some kids will be playing up as their abilities and development needs warrant. Question will be do they feel enough of the 2002s on my son's team warrant playing "up" for birth year teams or would they be deveopmentally better off with 2002s.

Again, if USSF hadn't dicated this, it's moot. Drives me nuts.

Nonlinear, quarters will be Sunday April 24, times not set yet, of course. Of the teams that made quarters, we probably have the friendliest draw, although the boys are already noting that we were expected to lose to Olney so they say they won't be looking past Salisbury (ranked 81st in state and not a lot of tournament history to look at).

ETA - also, in praise of the Club (Pipeline), Sant and Sean have from the jump pushed the girls side as hard as they have in developing the boys programs, and have done a great job seeding and developing both girls and boys teams in Baltimore. In Balt, the girls teams opportunities for high level Club play used to be limited, but they are not anymore. It's a good thing that's been started here, have been with them since my son was 9. It's been up and down at times, as all things are, but have been proud to see him learn soccer with this Club, whatever happens next (whether he chooses to keep playing or move on to other interests).
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by tennbengal »

rass wrote:So the birth year decision was dealt with yesterday. The current (new, if you've been keeping up) coach has decided to keep the team at the age appropriate (2006 birth year, currently U-10) level. The girls of course, (informed after practice), are pretty devastated. There are 14 girls on the team right now, with two other practicing with them in preparation to fully join the team in the Fall. Of those 16 girls, 10 are 2006 (including the two part-timers) and 6 are 2005. My kid is 2006, though early in the year. The daughters of the coach and assistant coach are both 2006. They said they struggled with it, but in the end thought it was best for the team not to move it up to the 2005 birth year level when most of the players would be playing a year ahead, even if emotionally it would have been the easier decision.

The 2005 group includes the #1 goalie, one of their best forwards (she would maybe be the best if she wasn't so tiny) and two other very good players. They have a coach (one of the moms, who was an assistant coach the last 1.5 seasons), but will need to fill out the roster. There is no U-11 travel team in town right now, but there are some girls playing (or at least working out) with the U-12 team that can be pursued. The 2006 team would also need to pick up at least 2, probably more like 4, more girls. Someone will be scouting the rec league this Spring.

And...it didn't go over too well. Some parents were pissed the team isn't being kept together no matter what. Some parents expected a team vote. One mother had gone so far as to contact the president of the Mid-NJ league the team belongs to just to make sure kids were allowed to play up a year. The same mom suggested that if "a coach" (not "the coach") had a daughter that was a 2005 kid, then the whole theoretical team would be moving up, all but accusing the coach of just doing what was best for his kid at the expense of the team, though I'm not sure if she really meant it that way. The coaches said everyone is welcome to try out for (and likely make) the 2005 team, but they ask that the 2006 team be informed of such decisions as soon as possible.

I think I'm OK with it. I'm a little worried about the goalie situation on the remainder of the 2006 team (we walked back to our cars with the #2 goalie and her mom, and the daughter admitted she isn't sure she wants to continue playing at that position), but would rather have my kid play at the age appropriate level. I guess we need to be prepared to pivot on that if for whatever reason too many of the parents decide to send the kids up to the 2005 team. Frankly, if my kid and the head coach's kid don't go, none of the rest of them (maybe one excepted) have any business going either.

And just to wrap up my last post in the thread, the old coach apparently came up with enough receipts to get close enough to closing the gap between what he said the gear he bought cost on the statements he provided and what the retailer said they cost that the club felt it was good enough.


ETA: shots fired via email over disappointment on how the meeting was run and the decision was made...remind me to never be a volunteer youth sports coach...
It's just no fucking win at that age, whatever they decide. I would have advocated keeping them together, but I get splitting it up too.

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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by wlu_lax6 »

So what happens when you are not paying attention....
just realized that thes Cindi and John Harkes are/were (John is now coaching a USL team) coaches in my kids soccer club.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by sancarlos »

wlu_lax6 wrote:So what happens when you are not paying attention....
just realized that thes Cindi and John Harkes are/were (John is now coaching a USL team) coaches in my kids soccer club.
Was John Harkes married to this woman when he was messing around with Eric Wynalda's wife?
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by Nonlinear FC »

wlu_lax6 wrote:So what happens when you are not paying attention....
just realized that thes Cindi and John Harkes are/were (John is now coaching a USL team) coaches in my kids soccer club.

That club has been VERY active the last 2 or 3 years. There's a team from that club in our age bracket that we play fairly regularly that when we first played them, they had kind of a goofy old guy and we worked them. Last two times they had a newer, more professional coach and the games have been much better.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer T

Post by Nonlinear FC »

sancarlos wrote:
wlu_lax6 wrote:So what happens when you are not paying attention....
just realized that thes Cindi and John Harkes are/were (John is now coaching a USL team) coaches in my kids soccer club.
Was John Harkes married to this woman when he was messing around with Eric Wynalda's wife?

Pretty sure, yeah.

Harkes probably should be coaching an MLS team at this point, except for what he did to his reputation in 98 and the years after. He vehemently denied the rumors for years, going so far as to write about it in his obnoxiously named "Captain for Life" book. That was an asshole title and Sampson was a damn saint for not going public with his knowledge of the situation sooner.

I'm pretty sure Sampson held his tongue all the way up until Wynalda wrote HIS book more than 10 years later. Once Wynalda put it out there, I guess Sampson felt like it was OK to confirm it and shed some light on his decision-making process.

But it was the worst kept secret in American soccer circles, so Harkes being out there repeating the lie made him look like a real scumbag to a lot of folks "in the know." Probably cost him 10 years in the dog house. Deservedly. (And I'm a DCU guy that LOVED him on the US team. But that shit was unforgivable.)
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by The Sybian »

I fell far behind in this thread, and after reading through it, I am no longer excited to coach my daughter's travel team. I sure as fuck am not signing on to handle the money. She is a 2009, and our town doesn't start 2009 until next year. She wants to try out for the 2008 team, understanding she will play with kids older than her. She was intimidated at first, and scared of the tryout aspect. She is self conscious and shuts down if she thinks she is being judged, but given a day to think about it, she is gungho to try out. I'm a bit worried that if she doesn't make it she will be crushed, and lose confidence and interest in playing.

She has been going to a soccer training program for the past 6 months, and absolutely loves it. The kids are 6-9 yo, she was 6 when it started and is now 7, so she is younger than most. She has no fear of going after bigger/older kids, and has a ton of passion for the game. All she ever wants to do is play soccer, so if she loses confidence or interest, that is a major problem. Plus, I don't want to lose my Arsenal buddy. She is eager to learn everything about the team, but man is it hard to explain the different competitions, why it's important to be in the top 4 for Champions League, even though 4th place isn't the League champion. But that's for another thread.

Sorry for the ramble, I needed to go to sleep an hour ago... BTW, I'm not considering coaching this year, since my daughter will be playing on the younger team next year.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Well, Syb, for one thing, you really won't have to deal with the issue of your daughter's team being blown up due to the age issue. And if you are the one doing the coaching, you don't have to deal with some of the bullshit around the management of the team... I don't know how it is everywhere, but in my experience it's pretty rare for the head coach to also be the treasurer. I know with our club, it's not allowed.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by The Sybian »

Nonlinear FC wrote:Well, Syb, for one thing, you really won't have to deal with the issue of your daughter's team being blown up due to the age issue. And if you are the one doing the coaching, you don't have to deal with some of the bullshit around the management of the team... I don't know how it is everywhere, but in my experience it's pretty rare for the head coach to also be the treasurer. I know with our club, it's not allowed.
Yeah, timing is perfect for the age rule being instituted. If she plays this year, she will play on a different team next year. I guess she could stay up if she wanted to, but that's a long way off. I know the guy who runs the travel program governing the individual teams, and I have a lot of faith in him. He has been doing it forever. His kids are grown, but he stuck with the program. He runs the PAL league, which serves as the rec league. In the offseason, he runs what they call a Soccer Development Academy, where they hire professionals to do skills based programs. For PAL, he pushes the coaches to treat it as a developmental league, to introduce kids to the game, and try to develop their interest. The league is a lot of fun, I coached 2 years for my son and 1 year for my daughter, and every coach was super chill, and worked with each other to make the league great. I never heard a parent yell, criticize a coach or a ref, and I've never heard of any incidents from different age groups. For travel in the younger age groups, e-mails say that if you are looking for a team focused on winning first, this isn't the program for you. They stress learning skills and developing an understanding of the game over just winning. Coaches are told they can't lean on bombing the long ball to the fast/big kid as a game plan.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by elflaco »

Tryouts for the 16-17 season start this week and go on for the next two weeks... as i oversee training and coaching.. i'm running tryouts for 16 teams. at least i'm not traveling for work the next three weeks.. the club went thru the summer/fall/winter back and forth on the age issue. in the end, we decided to keep as many teams together as we could. Its nearly 50/50 split -- my own team will be playing up -- so i'll be coaching the 2005s next season--tryouts will be hard -- i've 13 on my team and expecting another 16 at tryouts -- definitely will need another team.
in the end, one team is folding but their kids will play either 04 or 05

no such shenanigans (yet) as i've read on this thread .. but the possibilities are there.... for the past ten years, club was run by three individuals, one of whom left the state, two are still in town coaching their teams but no longer on the board. board is fairly new -- so its been amusing to read the emails and texts (forwarded and/or shown) to me about the conspiracy, the clique and the politics behind the age decision... thankfully i was never named in those emails... tainted by the last 10 years i suppose...
now for the scary part.. there are 10s of 1,000s in the bank. All checks are signed by two people (i'm not one of them) - the club address is someone's home address (heck, my 10 unit hoa has a p.o. box, files taxes), no filings in forever.. no control on gear as to where it comes from or any inventory of what we have available. our website sucks and no one can update it except the guy who is in charge of it but never updates anything on it or come sto meetings.. oh well, at least all teams have managers and managers handle the money not the coaches.

all in all -- fairly disorganized...hmm. my bad. no sordid tales except the mock offenses of some people in a small nj town. bottom line, we're a step above rec. our kids who excel go to Jersey Knights, Copa, Red Bull or maps/ndp teams... some double card. it is amusing to see people you've known a long time do a 180 from 'my kids will always play in town' to 'this club is too small, my kids need to play flight1'.. other than that.. minor drama - one coach found out thru a mass email that he was out next fall (not my call, president forgot to tell him).. which caused days worth of emails with parents and the board.. those emails are epic -i should post them here.

guess only the shock when we set up tryouts by age group and by team, required coaches to write up team summary before the season to share with trainers, and just now required coaches to provide assessments of all players on their teams.. and we told the coaches that all trainer assessments from tryouts (1st is age group w trainers, 2nd is team w coach running it) will go to the board 1st and the board will recommend where players should fit in...

so Syb.. yeah. get involved. lots of fun. its why i quit running the men's club i was involved with for 15 yrs.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by Nonlinear FC »

In news that will likely only mildly interest tb... WAGS (wash area girls soccer) announced today that it is merging with NCSL (nat'l capital soccer league - for boys.)

I bring it up because we've talked a bit about what's going on structurally with youth soccer.. in many areas, the boys are ahead of the girls in terms of playing what is called "regional" soccer... Which really amounts to taking your highest level players and putting them on academy teams and playing other like teams in the region.

The girls don't have the academy system yet, but there are couple of leagues that function that way with the major clubs fielding teams... ECNL is the big one in this area.

Anyways, a league like WAGS, which covers most of the clubs in NoVa and MoCo used to be able to boast the best girls teams. But EDP, NPL and ECNL having been bleeding the top 2 divisions for years now. WAGS is a dying league as currently arranged. While it's not totally clear what the plan is going forward, I assume part of this merger is aimed at trying to tie into the Region 1 champions league/tournament in a more formal way. Not sure how they do that, but they need do to something to make their D1/D2 better. Right now, the age brackets starting in U14 have 5 team D1s, and then skip down to D3... Not all of them, but an alarming number.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by testuser2 »

Outdoor season is starting up north. The club is focused mainly on being a training academy. We do some travel tournaments, but still no leagues. Our big partner in the area has been http://www.paclassics.org/. This is Pulisic's old club. We do some player loans with them and they have a bunch of well run events. I'm curious to see if much changes with them after he's made it to the big time.
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by rass »

^^^^hey man, how have you been?


I guess I'll bitch about this here...

The kid's team has a tournament in Hershey, PA over Memorial Day weekend. The coaches and manager missed that the tourney required that lodging be booked through one specific travel agency (under threat of team expulsion from the event, is this common???), so we all independently booked rooms at a hotel in Harrisburg. A month or so ago, someone with the tournament contacted the coach and asked where were staying, and then upon learning what we did requested that we give all of our reservation #s to the travel agent. We were assured that nothing would happen to reservations, he just needed the info for his records.

Yesterday we learned via the TA that the original hotel was apparently "overbooked", and that we needed to book rooms at a new place (and at about $30 more per night at this point). I called the original hotel to ask what happened, and they said that they had cancelled my reservation as per a request by the TA. Not sure if I'm more pissed at the hotel, the tourney or the TA (not true, I'm pissed at the TA).
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by tennbengal »

rass wrote:^^^^hey man, how have you been?


I guess I'll bitch about this here...

The kid's team has a tournament in Hershey, PA over Memorial Day weekend. The coaches and manager missed that the tourney required that lodging be booked through one specific travel agency (under threat of team expulsion from the event, is this common???), so we all independently booked rooms at a hotel in Harrisburg. A month or so ago, someone with the tournament contacted the coach and asked where were staying, and then upon learning what we did requested that we give all of our reservation #s to the travel agent. We were assured that nothing would happen to reservations, he just needed the info for his records.

Yesterday we learned via the TA that the original hotel was apparently "overbooked", and that we needed to book rooms at a new place (and at about $30 more per night at this point). I called the original hotel to ask what happened, and they said that they had cancelled my reservation as per a request by the TA. Not sure if I'm more pissed at the hotel, the tourney or the TA (not true, I'm pissed at the TA).
Ah yeah, the travel agent for tourney dealie.

It's a thing, and some tournaments take it REAL serious. Every out of state tournament we go to has that requirement. Only way I have ever been able to get out of it is to complain if the hotels offered are not remotely convenient for us (in the fall we were at Ft. Dix for EDP Fall Cup and they best they could offer through the travel agent was a hotel north of there up near NYC). I explained no way were we driving past the fields to stay in a hotel as a team out of Baltimore and got them to agree we could make our own arrangements.

Otherwise, yeah, screwed if they enforce it.

On an up note, if you win the Hershey tournament, your team gets a HUGE hersheys bar along with a trophy...
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Re: More Backroom Deals Than Tammany Hall - A Youth Soccer Tale

Post by tennbengal »

rass wrote:^^^^hey man, how have you been?


I guess I'll bitch about this here...

The kid's team has a tournament in Hershey, PA over Memorial Day weekend. The coaches and manager missed that the tourney required that lodging be booked through one specific travel agency (under threat of team expulsion from the event, is this common???), so we all independently booked rooms at a hotel in Harrisburg. A month or so ago, someone with the tournament contacted the coach and asked where were staying, and then upon learning what we did requested that we give all of our reservation #s to the travel agent. We were assured that nothing would happen to reservations, he just needed the info for his records.

Yesterday we learned via the TA that the original hotel was apparently "overbooked", and that we needed to book rooms at a new place (and at about $30 more per night at this point). I called the original hotel to ask what happened, and they said that they had cancelled my reservation as per a request by the TA. Not sure if I'm more pissed at the hotel, the tourney or the TA (not true, I'm pissed at the TA).
Ah yeah, the travel agent for tourney dealie.

It's a thing, and some tournaments take it REAL serious. Every out of state tournament we go to has that requirement. Only way I have ever been able to get out of it is to complain if the hotels offered are not remotely convenient for us (in the fall we were at Ft. Dix for EDP Fall Cup and the best they could offer through the travel agent was a hotel north of there up near NYC). I explained no way were we driving one hour north of the fields to stay in a hotel as a team out of Baltimore and got them to agree we could make our own arrangements.

Your other option is to tell the tournament you all are driving back and forth each day, but may not be believeable if you are more than two hours away...(and definitely won't work in this specific instance).

Otherwise, yeah, screwed if they enforce it.

On an up note, if you win the Hershey tournament, your team gets a HUGE hersheys bar along with a trophy...
Last edited by tennbengal on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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