2016 Presidential Race

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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govmentchedda
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by govmentchedda »

brian wrote:I think probably 80-90 percent of Bernie supporters agree with Rush, and that's fine. Some of them will vote for Jill Stein, which I think is idiotic given the stakes in this election, but again at least ideologically she's much, much, much more in line with Bernie than Gary Johnson so even if I don't agree with it I get it.

My only beef are the people who -- for whatever reason -- never even bothered to pay any kind of attention to politics, elections, basically the entire American democratic process who somehow ended up in Bernie's camp this winter/spring and spew the most insane nonsense. Elections are less about people (or should be) and more about ideas and who can deliver on those ideas but he managed to build up a cult of personality around himself that attracted some real nut jobs.

What we're seeing with reaction to Bernie, Trump and Hillary is more evidence that living in this reality-TV world where people are more interested in the messenger than the message is fucked up.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Sabo »

brian wrote:My only beef are the people who -- for whatever reason -- never even bothered to pay any kind of attention to politics, elections, basically the entire American democratic process who somehow ended up in Bernie's camp this winter/spring and spew the most insane nonsense.
Replace "Bernie's" with "Trump's" and the same sentiment replies. It's not just a Bernie thing, Brian.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Sabo wrote:
brian wrote:My only beef are the people who -- for whatever reason -- never even bothered to pay any kind of attention to politics, elections, basically the entire American democratic process who somehow ended up in Bernie's camp this winter/spring and spew the most insane nonsense.
Replace "Bernie's" with "Trump's" and the same sentiment replies. It's not just a Bernie thing, Brian.
No, I agree. And even Hillary to a lesser extent, but still.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by brian »

govmentchedda wrote:
brian wrote:I think probably 80-90 percent of Bernie supporters agree with Rush, and that's fine. Some of them will vote for Jill Stein, which I think is idiotic given the stakes in this election, but again at least ideologically she's much, much, much more in line with Bernie than Gary Johnson so even if I don't agree with it I get it.

My only beef are the people who -- for whatever reason -- never even bothered to pay any kind of attention to politics, elections, basically the entire American democratic process who somehow ended up in Bernie's camp this winter/spring and spew the most insane nonsense. Elections are less about people (or should be) and more about ideas and who can deliver on those ideas but he managed to build up a cult of personality around himself that attracted some real nut jobs.

What we're seeing with reaction to Bernie, Trump and Hillary is more evidence that living in this reality-TV world where people are more interested in the messenger than the message is fucked up.
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Oh I did months ago.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by degenerasian »

how key is the supreme court to voters? This president will get to choose THREE!
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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degenerasian wrote:how key is the supreme court to voters? This president will get to choose THREE!
Very to incredibly. Yet another reason to not throw your vote away on a third-party candidate. Even if Trump was a run of the mill, garden variety regressive Republican this should be all of the reason most any sane person would need.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Shirley wrote:My wife's pretty determined to vote for Jill Stein. She really dislikes Hillary and nothing Hillary has done since winning the nomination has helped that.

I'm fairly confident my wife is neither a bro nor stupid.

(That said, I'm willing to hold my nose and vote for Hillary. Don't like her or what she stands for though.)
Your wife is obviously not stupid. And I assume she isn't a bro. (That would be a hell of a confession.)

On the other hand, she lives in a swing state and a Hillary loss means that the next president is Trump. He would be the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. and he would appoint all Supreme Court justices and all other federal judges, the NLRB board, the EPA chief, the Attorney General, etc. If the Republican Congress passes laws to repeal Obamacare, cut taxes on the rich, limit or prevent immigration from certain areas, etc., he would be the only one who could veto that. And given your wife's background, she obviously knows this.

I guess I would describe anyone who cares about progressive issues but uses her vote to make a Trump win marginally more likely would be acting very selfishly and/or recklessly.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Joe K »

brian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:how key is the supreme court to voters? This president will get to choose THREE!
Very to incredibly. Yet another reason to not throw your vote away on a third-party candidate. Even if Trump was a run of the mill, garden variety regressive Republican this should be all of the reason most any sane person would need.
Yeah, I don't think most voters realize just how important it is that the President gets to appoint federal judges (including, most importantly, Supreme Court Justices). That reason alone makes it easy for me to vote for Hillary this fall, despite all my reservations about her. Maybe if I lived in a deep blue or deep red state I would vote for Stein, but not in Missouri.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Shirley »

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Shirley wrote:My wife's pretty determined to vote for Jill Stein. She really dislikes Hillary and nothing Hillary has done since winning the nomination has helped that.

I'm fairly confident my wife is neither a bro nor stupid.

(That said, I'm willing to hold my nose and vote for Hillary. Don't like her or what she stands for though.)
Your wife is obviously not stupid. And I assume she isn't a bro. (That would be a hell of a confession.)

On the other hand, she lives in a swing state and a Hillary loss means that the next president is Trump. He would be the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. and he would appoint all Supreme Court justices and all other federal judges, the NLRB board, the EPA chief, the Attorney General, etc. If the Republican Congress passes laws to repeal Obamacare, cut taxes on the rich, limit or prevent immigration from certain areas, etc., he would be the only one who could veto that. And given your wife's background, she obviously knows this.

I guess I would describe anyone who cares about progressive issues but uses her vote to make a Trump win marginally more likely would be acting very selfishly and/or recklessly.
I agree completely. I'm a Hillary disliker (hate is probably too strong a word, but it's close) from way back, but I can't afford to make a statement vote this time, not in my state. I'm hoping my wife comes around on that. But she's pretty damn stubborn and she definitely hates Hillary and the way the DNC has handled this whole election.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by degenerasian »

Shirley wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Shirley wrote:My wife's pretty determined to vote for Jill Stein. She really dislikes Hillary and nothing Hillary has done since winning the nomination has helped that.

I'm fairly confident my wife is neither a bro nor stupid.

(That said, I'm willing to hold my nose and vote for Hillary. Don't like her or what she stands for though.)
Your wife is obviously not stupid. And I assume she isn't a bro. (That would be a hell of a confession.)

On the other hand, she lives in a swing state and a Hillary loss means that the next president is Trump. He would be the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. and he would appoint all Supreme Court justices and all other federal judges, the NLRB board, the EPA chief, the Attorney General, etc. If the Republican Congress passes laws to repeal Obamacare, cut taxes on the rich, limit or prevent immigration from certain areas, etc., he would be the only one who could veto that. And given your wife's background, she obviously knows this.

I guess I would describe anyone who cares about progressive issues but uses her vote to make a Trump win marginally more likely would be acting very selfishly and/or recklessly.
I agree completely. I'm a Hillary disliker (hate is probably too strong a word, but it's close) from way back, but I can't afford to make a statement vote this time, not in my state. I'm hoping my wife comes around on that. But she's pretty damn stubborn and she definitely hates Hillary and the way the DNC has handled this whole election.

I think that is the key to this Democratic Convention. They have to turn Mrs. Shirley around.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by howard »

People are losing their damn minds over this election, and it ain't even August yet. This is gonna be more fun than even cynical me ever imagined. Oh, and Goodwin's Law.
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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howard wrote:People are losing their damn minds over this election, and it ain't even August yet. This is gonna be more fun than even cynical me ever imagined. Oh, and Goodwin's Law.
Just looked it up - Goodwin's law's a great one, and has been in effect in this election for quite a few months.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by howard »

Like I said, losing they damn minds.

Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Ryan »

Fuck that asshole for not going with with "...SHELLFISH BITCH"
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

holy fuckbAllZ, what a ducking nightmare. Holy shot. Just, fuck. The
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by howard »

he was tired of being a prawn in Hillary's game.
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Johnnie »

"Hillary will fight to hold big banks accountable."

Bullshit.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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brothers and sisters? he might as well say comrades
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by brian »



Boom.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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do you guys really believe this? free education, free healthcare, free dental!
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Life's too short to watch a second festival of bullshit in one week, but reading the news this morning, a thought occurred to me...

Do Sarah Silverman's political opinions carry more weight than Scott Baio's simply because she's actually still a celebrity? Based on the news sources I read, the answer is a clear "yes."
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Shirley »

brian wrote:

Boom.
You can call my wife a bro. You can call her stupid. But call her a Duke fan? She'll cut you.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Just looking for news clips on yesterday's events - saw a clip from MSNBC of Wasserman-Schultz being booed continually as she tried to address a meeting of Florida delegates.

Nasty (and fun) stuff.

But MSNBC leaned forward a bit too far...

Image
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Pruitt wrote:Life's too short to watch a second festival of bullshit in one week, but reading the news this morning, a thought occurred to me...

Do Sarah Silverman's political opinions carry more weight than Scott Baio's simply because she's actually still a celebrity? Based on the news sources I read, the answer is a clear "yes."
She's also been publicly politically involved throughout this campaign. She made a video that went viral in Bernie's support. I thought she was a good choice to try talking sense into the Bernie or Bust crowd in the hall.

Scott Baio seemed transported directly from complete obscurity to the stage at the RNC. I know his Twitter feed contained some political commentary, but a hundred thousand followers doesn't compare to Sarah's 8.5 million.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Johnnie »

The only celebrity who would hold weight on either side of this Politi-kake is Killer Mike. And he's not exactly a household name. Sarah Silverman may be smart and funny, but her opinion is completely useless.

Or maybe as mentioned, The Rock:

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Moreta wrote:
Pruitt wrote:Life's too short to watch a second festival of bullshit in one week, but reading the news this morning, a thought occurred to me...

Do Sarah Silverman's political opinions carry more weight than Scott Baio's simply because she's actually still a celebrity? Based on the news sources I read, the answer is a clear "yes."
She's also been publicly politically involved throughout this campaign. She made a video that went viral in Bernie's support. I thought she was a good choice to try talking sense into the Bernie or Bust crowd in the hall.

Scott Baio seemed transported directly from complete obscurity to the stage at the RNC. I know his Twitter feed contained some political commentary, but a hundred thousand followers doesn't compare to Sarah's 8.5 million.
Yeah, but for me, I don't give a rat's ass as to what a comedian, singer or actor thinks is best for a country.

(Obviously, I am in the minority).
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Moreta »

Pruitt wrote: Yeah, but for me, I don't give a rat's ass as to what a comedian, singer or actor thinks is best for a country.

(Obviously, I am in the minority).
I'm with you. Celebrity endorsements do seem to perfectly mesh with the level of public discourse in the country as a whole though.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Moreta wrote:
Pruitt wrote: Yeah, but for me, I don't give a rat's ass as to what a comedian, singer or actor thinks is best for a country.

(Obviously, I am in the minority).
I'm with you. Celebrity endorsements do seem to perfectly mesh with the level of public discourse in the country as a whole though.
But for that matter, none of your guys opinions matter all that much to me. You just aren't celebrities. I'll still make up my own mind. Doesn't mean you don't get to say your opinions, your outlet is just a little blue box, not at the convention.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Shirley »

Eh, there are only so many interesting speakers you can have for an entire week. Taking advantage of a few people whose job it is to perform to large crowds seems like a reasonable idea to me.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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degenerasian wrote:do you guys really believe this? free education, free healthcare, free dental!
Most rational Americans certainly believe those things should be considerably more affordable -- especially the healthcare.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Brontoburglar wrote:
degenerasian wrote:do you guys really believe this? free education, free healthcare, free dental!
Most rational Americans certainly believe those things should be considerably more affordable -- especially the healthcare.
sure there are ways to have those more affordable. But free college for kids families making under $125000 would be crazy.
That doesn't even qualify you for a student loan here.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Brontoburglar »

degenerasian wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:
degenerasian wrote:do you guys really believe this? free education, free healthcare, free dental!
Most rational Americans certainly believe those things should be considerably more affordable -- especially the healthcare.
sure there are ways to have those more affordable. But free college for kids families making under $125000 would be crazy.
That doesn't even qualify you for a student loan here.
what doesn't even qualify you for a student loan here
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Johnnie »

America has a 17 trillion dollar GDP. We have the money to do lots of things. We have the power to do far more. But we're hellbent on concentrating wealth for a very small group of people.

Unfortunately never ending war, unlimited government contracts for future weapons systems, and things of that nature trump education and shit that matters. (And how many billions go to actually putting on the shitshows?)

The math says yes. The attitude of entitlement in America says no.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by degenerasian »

Brontoburglar wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:
degenerasian wrote:do you guys really believe this? free education, free healthcare, free dental!
Most rational Americans certainly believe those things should be considerably more affordable -- especially the healthcare.
sure there are ways to have those more affordable. But free college for kids families making under $125000 would be crazy.
That doesn't even qualify you for a student loan here.
what doesn't even qualify you for a student loan here
if both your parents combined make $120,000 you don't qualify for a student loan at the University of Calgary.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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Johnnie wrote:America has a 17 trillion dollar GDP. We have the money to do lots of things. We have the power to do far more. But we're hellbent on concentrating wealth for a very small group of people.

Unfortunately never ending war, unlimited government contracts for future weapons systems, and things of that nature trump education and shit that matters. (And how many billions go to actually putting on the shitshows?)

The math says yes. The attitude of entitlement in America says no.
Yup that's correct but Sanders is arguing that having free colleges will get the poor kids into school. But that's not true, it would make it worse. Because free school still can only take in so many kids. The entrance criteria would have to increase and who would win the grades war in high school? The rich kids who can afford tutors or can afford to pay off teachers. This is what happens in Asia. Pre-schoolers have tutors.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by brian »

Looks like the cost in tuition per semester at the University of Calgary would be about $3000 (CDN) including fees.

Even at a smaller, public university in the states (I used my own alma mater as an example), it's $6,000

And that's relatively CHEAP. A school like Michigan or Michigan State for in-state tuition would be closer to $10K a semester and that's just for classes, not including room and board, food, etc.

We have a serious crisis in the cost of higher education where today's kids are essentially having to enter indentured servitude just to pay for the education, but you can't get a job without an education. It was expensive even when we went, but nothing like it is now.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

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degenerasian wrote:do you guys really believe this? free education, free healthcare, free dental!
I hate the way they shout Free Everything! It fuels the argument that Liberals are greedy takers who just want free shit. Nothing is free, of course, since it all comes out of our taxes. What they need to say is, yes, your taxes will go towards education and health care, but you won't have to pay medical expense, health insurance premiums, and college tuition. They also don't make it clear that the free education is for public universities, not free college for every school. It's jarring when you see how much more the US pays for healthcare costs than the rest of the world, and how many people go bankrupt due to medical expenses, while the rest of the first world doesn't have this problem. I'm happy to pay higher taxes and not have to worry about medical bills, and ensure other people who don't have access to healthcare can get healthcare. I'd much rather pay higher taxes so everyone can afford preventative healthcare and get early treatment, rather than foot the bill for much higher costs when they wait too long for treatment, and can't afford the much higher cost down the road. Or go to emergency rooms for minor things, because they don't have a doctor, then can't pay for the emergency visits, but the hospital has to treat them. I'd much rather pay for education and than prisons, or have uneducated people voting. I hate the short sighted thinking in America. Pay two dollars tomorrow to save one dollar today; instead of proactively preventing a problem, wait until it is a problem, then react to fix it. People don't want to pay to fix our crumbling infrastructure, so we will wait for bridges to collapse, then rebuild them.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Rush2112 »

degenerasian wrote:
if both your parents combined make $120,000 you don't qualify for a student loan at the University of Calgary.
Financial aid is all specifically tied to the institution? Here we can't get school specific aid due to certain criteria, but there is federal and state available to pretty much everyone.

How are students supposed to afford 15K a semester if middle class families can't get loans to help out?
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by Rush2112 »

The Sybian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:do you guys really believe this? free education, free healthcare, free dental!
I hate the way they shout Free Everything!...
Closing loopholes for corporations, estate transfers, and various aspects of investments will go a long way to providing the cash without raising your taxes.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by degenerasian »

Rush2112 wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
if both your parents combined make $120,000 you don't qualify for a student loan at the University of Calgary.
Financial aid is all specifically tied to the institution? Here we can't get school specific aid due to certain criteria, but there is federal and state available to pretty much everyone.

How are students supposed to afford 15K a semester if middle class families can't get loans to help out?
sorry, it's provincial here. But Alberta only has a handful of public universities. Five I think. And two trade schools.
Is the states going from $15K tuition per semester to free is a big jump isn't it?

I think Brian's line of "but you can't get a job without an education" is a key one. Why can't we get a job without an education? Are there too many college graduates out there?


One problem is that having too many degrees makes them worthless. Most jobs shouldn't need degrees but increasingly do because of the supply of degrees people. 20 years ago a B.Comm in Accounting led to a decent career. Now that gets you nowhere as there are too many of them. Now you need a CPA designation to get the same job a B.Comm got. Soon there will be too many of those and a 3rd step will be needed.

The right type of degrees are needed. For example there are still significant shortages in the STEM fields and as we automate blue-collar jobs those jobs become what is left. Increase those class sizes and reduce sociology classes (sorry sociology majors)

I think a better way than free tutition is just to expand online education and certification. With online webcasts you could take classes
From MIT without being there. You just need a way to accredit people who take a web based education. Cost is almost nothing compared to a university experience and would fit with the majority of post secondary people who aren't conventional 4 yr students at big state colleges.
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Re: 2016 Presidential Race

Post by brian »

Education without interaction is mostly meaningless. I think there's good cases to be made for online/virtual education, but a big part of higher education is learning how to work with other people, navigate other cultures, etc.

Technology has already made us more isolated -- I'd hate to see us reduce the idea of higher education to sitting in front of a computer more.
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