Copa America

cerrano · Post by **cerrano** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:22 pm

wait, jurgen puts up a sign that says "this is the biggest week of your career" in the us locker room, and then starts wondo? WONDO.

talk about your gemischte nachrichten.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:27 pm

cerrano wrote: talk about your gemischte nachrichten.

I know, oy gevalt, vhat meshugas

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:28 pm

So far we could have put George Costanza up front and it wouldn't have mattered.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:31 pm

Hoping we get Chile in the third place game because after we lose we can at least mock El Tri fans that it wasn't 7-0. (Probably.)

cerrano · Post by **cerrano** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:33 pm

Rex wrote:So far we could have put George Costanza up front and it wouldn't have mattered.

not today, but costanza coulda/woulda scored against belgium.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:37 pm

Ashlyn Harris apparently got that yellow according to Fox.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:38 pm

And I'm done. Someone text me if we somehow score but I'm not holding my breath.

cerrano · Post by **cerrano** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:40 pm

if you listen closely, you can hear landon's smile during this broadcast.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:40 pm

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:57 pm

We're pretty clearly the better team here, give it time.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:04 pm

Does Ashlyn Harris' yellow carry over to the Olympics?

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:10 pm

did Croatians invade the pitch?

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:14 pm

I find myself rooting for the Argentine keeper to turn rogue and kick the ball in his own net.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:56 pm

wlu_lax6 wrote:Did the rules on kickoffs change? The U.S. just kicked the ball backwards. I thought the rule was it had to take one revolution forward (which is hwy you have two people up there)

Yes it just changed a few months ago!

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:02 am

So glad we got Wondo and Beckerman and Zusi valuable run in the game last night. Sets us up well for the old dudes world cup, I would imagine. There is an old dudes world cup, right?

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:33 am

another thing about starting Wondo (aside from the fact you're starting Wondo) is that it removes your only bench striker if/when you want to drop a striker in

granted, there are/were better options than Wondo to come off the bench for attacking purposes, but it's still one of the dumb side effects of it

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:44 am

This was the first game I watched from the start (I didn't finish it....turned it off at about 75'. We did not look good. The technical gap is still pretty wide.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:56 am

A_B wrote:This was the first game I watched from the start (I didn't finish it....turned it off at about 75'. We did not look good. The technical gap is still pretty wide.

and strategic. Argentina's off ball movement, runs, and build up were very impressive. Even the way the went back to the goalie, spread the fullbacks to work the ball up were really interesting to watch (just exhausted the U.S. when they did want to press). Also the forwards runs to stay onside (slight moves east-west before accelerating north-south).

The U.S. was not comfortable all night. The backs just were booting the ball to ease the pressure from the first whistle.

Guzan got caught in no man's land on that first goal (and probably should have picked up a card for popping lamezzi). I know Landon praised Wondo's foul on the 2nd, but that was just ugly.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:19 am

Wondo is a perfectly fine MLS striker. He has proven time after time after time that he doesn't belong at the elite international level.

I just want to highlight, in case anyone missed the sequence. Ball is played from the back up to Wondo somewhere around the center circle. This is a a ball you need your striker to control and drop back to Bradley or maybe out wide to an advancing flanker. Instead, he hammer boots the ball about 30 yards back towards his own goal. While not his intention, the mistake is compounded by the fact that the ball drops to Messi's feet. In a typical US "oh shit, I need to fix this!" maneuver, Wondo tries to make up for his mistake and bundles through Messi 25 yards out. This is, pretty much, the worst spot no the field to foul an ARG player. Messi ties his shoelaces and does what he does. 2-0, game over.

He was a complete waste of a roster spot, and that performance should, I sincerely hope, cement the fact that he shouldn't be on this team.

I'm proud of the team for getting to this game. I'm extremely disappointed (again) by Klinsmann's roster and starting lineup decisions. He had carte blanche to put an attacking side out there. No one. NO ONE would've berated him for putting Nagbe and Pulisic in this lineup. Instead he put old, slow dudes out there and we came out with a very predictable result.

=-=-=-=-=

Fucking Guzan. C'mon man. It was a decent ball in, but you either go or you stay home. Classic keeper blunder there.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:20 am

Think the style combined with the skill level can make the gap look bigger than it really is (not to say there isnt a large gap in depth and quality) but it was the relative lack of quickness to the ball that struck me. They won about 10% of 50/50 balls. Just slow to react all night. And then of course you need to do something with it when you get it which almost never happened. Altidore would have helped in this type of game. Zardes just couldnt hold or make any type of quick and accurate pass when he came back to show for the ball. And the rest of the squad lacked the skill to string together any number of passes to start an attack. Bradley tried but failed miserably. Zusi kinda sucks. Still cant develop the midfielders they need. Bradley and Reyna are pretty much all I recall in team history and neither is/was quite good enough. Not to mention that they probably need 3 at once. Forwards look like a big step forward from past years. Some quality and pretty decent depth. Same for the back. But not sure where we find a midfield. Coaches better get to fucking. Guzan needs to see the bench. Id say no US team will win at this level without excellent goalie play and he really should have stopped the first two. A bit much to ask but it just plain has to happen. There are enough undersized swingmen that the powers that be need to develop the best goalie in the world at all times. All in all a good showing. Probably better than they deserved but is promising and for better or worse should be some continuity though 2018.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:29 am

HaulCitgo wrote:Think the style combined with the skill level can make the gap look bigger than it really is (not to say there isnt a large gap in depth and quality) but it was the relative lack of quickness to the ball that struck me. They won about 10% of 50/50 balls. Just slow to react all night. And then of course you need to do something with it when you get it which almost never happened. Altidore would have helped in this type of game. Zardes just couldnt hold or make any type of quick and accurate pass when he came back to show for the ball. And the rest of the squad lacked the skill to string together any number of passes to start an attack. Bradley tried but failed miserably. Zusi kinda sucks. Still cant develop the midfielders they need. Bradley and Reyna are pretty much all I recall in team history and neither is/was quite good enough. Not to mention that they probably need 3 at once. Forwards look like a big step forward from past years. Some quality and pretty decent depth. Same for the back. But not sure where we find a midfield. Coaches better get to fucking. Guzan needs to see the bench. Id say no US team will win at this level without excellent goalie play and he really should have stopped the first two. A bit much to ask but it just plain has to happen. There are enough undersized swingmen that the powers that be need to develop the best goalie in the world at all times. All in all a good showing. Probably better than they deserved but is promising and for better or worse should be some continuity though 2018.

I'll give you the first one to bad positioning, but the second was world-class shit from Messi.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:30 am

brian wrote:Hoping we get Chile in the third place game because after we lose we can at least mock El Tri fans that it wasn't 7-0. (Probably.)

Not so fast, my friend.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:33 am

Kinda hard for me to get worked up over this loss. ARG are miles ahead of us, talent wise.

That being said, I don't disagree with the complaints about the selections.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:43 am

A_B wrote:
HaulCitgo wrote:Think the style combined with the skill level can make the gap look bigger than it really is (not to say there isnt a large gap in depth and quality) but it was the relative lack of quickness to the ball that struck me. They won about 10% of 50/50 balls. Just slow to react all night. And then of course you need to do something with it when you get it which almost never happened. Altidore would have helped in this type of game. Zardes just couldnt hold or make any type of quick and accurate pass when he came back to show for the ball. And the rest of the squad lacked the skill to string together any number of passes to start an attack. Bradley tried but failed miserably. Zusi kinda sucks. Still cant develop the midfielders they need. Bradley and Reyna are pretty much all I recall in team history and neither is/was quite good enough. Not to mention that they probably need 3 at once. Forwards look like a big step forward from past years. Some quality and pretty decent depth. Same for the back. But not sure where we find a midfield. Coaches better get to fucking. Guzan needs to see the bench. Id say no US team will win at this level without excellent goalie play and he really should have stopped the first two. A bit much to ask but it just plain has to happen. There are enough undersized swingmen that the powers that be need to develop the best goalie in the world at all times. All in all a good showing. Probably better than they deserved but is promising and for better or worse should be some continuity though 2018.
I'll give you the first one to bad positioning, but the second was world-class shit from Messi.

It was world-class but I agree with HaulCitgo. A keeper should never be beaten on his side of the wall. It's happening in the Euros too. I don't know why keepers are cheating over to the wall-side, sometimes they themselves are behind the wall. There are few free kick specialists these days who can bend the ball up and over the wall or around the outside of the wall. Maybe it's because the ball is lighter these days and tend to sky over the bar.

Keeper should cover his side. If the guy gets it up and down over the wall then that's just unstoppable.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:45 am

I will get off my soapbox after this:

The lineup tells the team, long before the game starts, that the manager doesn't believe you can play a possession, attacking style. Beckerman and Wondolowski, in particular, is a huge flare going up to the entire squad. You preach that this is the biggest game, the biggest stage, you can make history... And then you throw out a slow, club footed lineup. I guarantee you this had an effect on the mentality of the team last night.

I'm not saying we don't lose 4-0 if we put Zardes up top and run Nagbe and Pulisic out there. But, again, I'm positive we don't come out so timid. There are tons of parallels to draw from, and I think as a soccer nation we're still to naive to understand just how fucked up that lineup was last night. Donovan, to his credit, alluded to it a number of times.

The fact that those three idiot homers predicted a US win last night was embarrassing. Pumping up Wondo for his striking prowess was embarrassing. Not one of those morons questioned that lineup and that just shows you how far we are from a country that truly "gets it." Stop being cheerleaders and explain to fans what's going on. You don't have to shit on everything, but you're not doing your jobs.

=-=-=-=-=

In response to the comment about goalkeeping. The first goal was a blunder, but not a completely outlandish one. The second goal... I don't care who is in the goal, that was a ridiculous shot. FUCKING RIDICULOUS. It dipped from about 14 feet in the air and skimmed the bottom of the crossbar, upper 90. At a wicked pace. Virtually unstoppable.

And just in terms of overall history and pedigree, the US has had very good to exceptional goalkeeping for over 20 years. Meola-Keller-Friedel-Howard is a lineage most nations would be pretty happy to post on the wall. Guzan *might* be a step below, but not by a lot. And, we have a slew of young guys coming up. This just isn't a problem area for the US.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:54 am

The dude stepped the wrong direction. Call me crazy but that has little to do with the guy behind the ball or the shot being in the top corner. If he sees it sooner (or doesnt guess) and takes a first step to his left, then he gets there.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:00 am

Having a fun "offline" chat that I thought I'd bring here. I was trying to test myself and guess which US players are "the best" relative to the top countries in the world. Like if we ceased being a country and our players were put into an expansion draft and the top 10 countries had the first 10 picks, ignoring need, who would go. So Guzan would be relative to top goalies, Dempsey relative to top strikers, Wondo relative to top piles of garbage that have been set on fire. Rank the top 3 players through the next world cup and then one guy you'd project post-WC. And don't say Pulicic or Morris because that's no fun for me.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:06 am

No matter where the keeper sets up, Messi is going to have a 2' x 2' window to place the ball at worst. He put it in that window. He's Messi. Of everything that happened in the game, that's the easiest one to move on from.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:20 am

Nonlinear FC wrote:I'm not saying we don't lose 4-0 if we put Zardes up top and run Nagbe and Pulisic out there. But, again, I'm positive we don't come out so timid. There are tons of parallels to draw from, and I think as a soccer nation we're still to naive to understand just how fucked up that lineup was last night. Donovan, to his credit, alluded to it a number of times..

This is what fucking burns me up. I didn't watch the post-game presser, but I'm really hoping someone asked JK what the intent was with that lineup. What strategy was he hoping to employ? Can you bunker and counter (the most basic and obvious approach to this game)? No, because you've got no speed up top and one of your CM's is wearing concrete shoes. Can you press? No, same reason. Can you you out-possess ARGENTINA and play through the midfield? Hahahahahaha.

It was nothing but a white flag.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:35 am

Maybe it was prep for St. Vincent and the Grenadines.

Post by **brian** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:39 am

P.D.X. wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:I'm not saying we don't lose 4-0 if we put Zardes up top and run Nagbe and Pulisic out there. But, again, I'm positive we don't come out so timid. There are tons of parallels to draw from, and I think as a soccer nation we're still to naive to understand just how fucked up that lineup was last night. Donovan, to his credit, alluded to it a number of times..
This is what fucking burns me up. I didn't watch the post-game presser, but I'm really hoping someone asked JK what the intent was with that lineup. What strategy was he hoping to employ? Can you bunker and counter (the most basic and obvious approach to this game)? No, because you've got no speed up top and one of your CM's is wearing concrete shoes. Can you press? No, same reason. Can you you out-possess ARGENTINA and play through the midfield? Hahahahahaha.

It was nothing but a white flag.

I had bet $100 on Argentina to win and after I saw the lineup put another $100 on them. Should have bet everything in my account. There was no way the U.S. was going to win that game in regulation. My only concern (for my bet) was if they somehow forced a 0-0 draw and went to pens. That was pretty much a best case scenario.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:54 am

HaulCitgo wrote:The dude stepped the wrong direction. Call me crazy but that has little to do with the guy behind the ball or the shot being in the top corner. If he sees it sooner (or doesnt guess) and takes a first step to his left, then he gets there.

http://screamer.deadspin.com/lionel-mes ... 1782397602

He doesn't step the wrong way. He saw it, he got beat. It was an incredible kick by the best player on the planet.

ETA... Looking at it five, six times, I'll give it a slight step the wrong way. Very slight. He was still in very good position to make that save and it took amazing precision to place it where he did with the pace he put on the ball.

If he had taken a full step the wrong way, he would've done the deer in the headlights/frozen/statue keeper thing you see when they know there's no chance to recover. (See first goal for a similar pose when he put himself in no man's land.)

Post by **brian** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:56 am

I've never been a GK, but I'm just going to echo that I'm not sure too many -- if any -- keepers would have been able to save that Messi goal. I'm more upset about the build-up that led to the foul. That was sloppy as shit. Guzan gets an absolute pass from me on the goal though.

testuser2 · Post by **testuser2** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:35 am

It's good that ARG never really put the pedal down to the floor for more than a few minutes. We would have needed a mercy rule.

It was a sad game to watch. You could tell early on that the US would tire and not be able to make up for the tactical and technical issues by just being more tenacious. Dempsey was a window into that. I'm not sure he touched the ball in the first half and he was unable to will his way into any chances.

I'd also like to know why JK started that lineup. It looked like a complete bunker that would generate very little offensive threat. The only other option I can think of was the he somehow wanted to protect the young guys from a whipping.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:41 am

brian wrote:Ashlyn Harris apparently got that yellow according to Fox.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. Who the hell is Ashlyn Harris?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:48 am

DaveInSeattle wrote:
brian wrote:Ashlyn Harris apparently got that yellow according to Fox.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. Who the hell is Ashlyn Harris?

USWNT goalkeeper. Some other country's player got misidentified as a women's player as well earlier in the tournament.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:51 am

The one thing that really stood out to me (besides Wondo and Beckerman not belonging on the field) was how awful our first touches were. The Argentine's would make long passes, and the receiver would take the ball and it would stop right at his feet. The US players would get even a short pass, and the first touch would send the ball bounding about 5 feet away from them, to be picked off by Argentina. Very frustrating.

And Messi's free kick was a thing of beauty. No way you can blame Guzan for not stopping that one.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:24 pm

brian wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:I'm not saying we don't lose 4-0 if we put Zardes up top and run Nagbe and Pulisic out there. But, again, I'm positive we don't come out so timid. There are tons of parallels to draw from, and I think as a soccer nation we're still to naive to understand just how fucked up that lineup was last night. Donovan, to his credit, alluded to it a number of times..
This is what fucking burns me up. I didn't watch the post-game presser, but I'm really hoping someone asked JK what the intent was with that lineup. What strategy was he hoping to employ? Can you bunker and counter (the most basic and obvious approach to this game)? No, because you've got no speed up top and one of your CM's is wearing concrete shoes. Can you press? No, same reason. Can you you out-possess ARGENTINA and play through the midfield? Hahahahahaha.

It was nothing but a white flag.
I had bet $100 on Argentina to win and after I saw the lineup put another $100 on them. Should have bet everything in my account. There was no way the U.S. was going to win that game in regulation. My only concern (for my bet) was if they somehow forced a 0-0 draw and went to pens. That was pretty much a best case scenario.

I cleaned up last night. Could not believe Argentina weren't favored by more. Got the exact score right, and -3.5 as well.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:27 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
HaulCitgo wrote:The dude stepped the wrong direction. Call me crazy but that has little to do with the guy behind the ball or the shot being in the top corner. If he sees it sooner (or doesnt guess) and takes a first step to his left, then he gets there.

http://screamer.deadspin.com/lionel-mes ... 1782397602

He doesn't step the wrong way. He saw it, he got beat. It was an incredible kick by the best player on the planet.

ETA... Looking at it five, six times, I'll give it a slight step the wrong way. Very slight. He was still in very good position to make that save and it took amazing precision to place it where he did with the pace he put on the ball.

If he had taken a full step the wrong way, he would've done the deer in the headlights/frozen/statue keeper thing you see when they know there's no chance to recover. (See first goal for a similar pose when he put himself in no man's land.)

If you cant see that, I cant help you. Full two footed jump to the right before he starts going back left. 0:17-0:18.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:33 pm

The goal is 24 feet wide and 8 feet hight. 192 square feet. How on earth can any goalie position himself to cover the absolute corner of the goal without leaving the other half of the goal uncovered, wall or not?

The free kick was hit hard and fast and curving and landed right in the corner. No one stops that.

Edit: That "jump to the right" just looked to me like he was positioning himself before or as the ball was kicked. I don't think he moved right after the kick.