The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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sancarlos
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by sancarlos »

It would appear from this that more people are appalled by looting than are appalled by the calling in of our military to civic duty. So, yeah, I think the riots are helping Trump.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Well, it's illegal for Trump to foist the actual military on States/Cities. They have national guard units for this very reason.

I don't know if enough people being polled understand the distinction.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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I don't think that matters if enough people being polled see the present situation as an over-escalation in response to unchecked police violence.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by brian »

Since Trump is so religious, here's a bit of Scripture that might interest him.

"And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months..." - Revelations 13:1-18

Donald Trump will have been president for 42 months in July.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Nonlinear FC »

see below
Last edited by Nonlinear FC on Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Nonlinear FC »

mister d wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:45 am I don't think that matters if enough people being polled see the present situation as an over-escalation in response to unchecked police violence.
Yeah, probably right.

The problem is that peaceful protesting is being conflated with looting. Nothing freaks out white America quite like a McDonald's getting torched. People that support the cause of justice reform are absolutely going to say enough is enough after a week of rioting.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d »

Yup, and no matter how many videos show the police instigating, they'll fall back on "well, it would all end if the protesters go home so the onus is on them".
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Johnnie »

I've read multiple news articles (Vox, WaPo..etc).

He can absolutely deploy active military to wherever he wants. He can invoke the Insurrection Act of 1807.

But what he cannot do is order military members to commit war crimes which is what would happen if the military fires upon civilians.

Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.

Matt Gaetz's fever dream could actually be a reality if there are blood thirsty, Trump loving miliary members.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by sancarlos »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:49 am
mister d wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:45 am I don't think that matters if enough people being polled see the present situation as an over-escalation in response to unchecked police violence.
Yeah, probably right.

The problem is that peaceful protesting is being conflated with looting. Nothing freaks out white America quite like a McDonald's getting torched. People that support the cause of justice reform are absolutely going to say enough is enough after a week of rioting.
Whether he can or cannot, the simple fact that a majority of people are responding favorably in that poll to his willingness to use overwhelming force shows that he's successfully playing to people's fears.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Joe K »

Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by degenerasian »

The looting is a huge problem, especially with unemployment through the roof. Business have probably been working barebones the last 3 months and now they're torched. Pharmacies and supermarkets that have been operating to give people the essentials now have to close, people cannot get their medicine and workers, who have probably taken paycuts, now can't work at all. People are going to get really fed up if things continue into next weekend.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:03 am
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
Yeah, killing an enemy holed up in a foreign country is not precedent for calling out the military to start shooting Americans in the United States.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d »

Historical precedent or not, isn't this just example number infinity of everyone relying on the rules enforcing themselves until he proves they don't?
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Joe K »

Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:40 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:03 am
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
Yeah, killing an enemy holed up in a foreign country is not precedent for calling out the military to start shooting Americans in the United States.
Why can’t Trump declare “Antifa members” to be enemies? Hasn’t he effectively already done so? And are you that confident in the extraterritoriality distinction as applied to “terrorists”? Al-Awlaki was still a US citizen even though he lived in Yemen. Why should we give “terrorists” more legal protections when they’re already in America and “threatening the homeland”?
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB »

sancarlos wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:27 am It would appear from this that more people are appalled by looting than are appalled by the calling in of our military to civic duty. So, yeah, I think the riots are helping Trump.
I dunno. I don’t know if this is the same Morning Consult poll, but people are generally in favor of the protest and the protestors.

https://assets.morningconsult.com/wp-up ... L_LM-1.pdf

If riots and property destruction continue, though, I think opinion will turn.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB »

Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:46 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:40 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:03 am
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
Yeah, killing an enemy holed up in a foreign country is not precedent for calling out the military to start shooting Americans in the United States.
Why can’t Trump declare “Antifa members” to be enemies? Hasn’t he effectively already done so? And are you that confident in the extraterritoriality distinction as applied to “terrorists”? Al-Awlaki was still a US citizen even though he lived in Yemen. Why should we give “terrorists” more legal protections when they’re already in America and “threatening the homeland”?
Because he can’t.

No he hasn’t.

Yes.

Because it’s not simply about calling someone a “terrorist”.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Joe K »

Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:48 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:46 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:40 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:03 am
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
Yeah, killing an enemy holed up in a foreign country is not precedent for calling out the military to start shooting Americans in the United States.
Why can’t Trump declare “Antifa members” to be enemies? Hasn’t he effectively already done so? And are you that confident in the extraterritoriality distinction as applied to “terrorists”? Al-Awlaki was still a US citizen even though he lived in Yemen. Why should we give “terrorists” more legal protections when they’re already in America and “threatening the homeland”?
Because he can’t.

No he hasn’t.

Yes.

Because it’s not simply about calling someone a “terrorist”.
So Presidents can legally assassinate US citizens if they’re Muslim terrorists in Yemen but not if they’re “Antifa terrorists” in Washington DC? Can Presidents assassinate Antifa terrorists overseas? Can they assassinate Muslim citizens “terrorists” within the US? And are you confident in the current iteration of the US Supreme Court recognizing whatever distinctions you’re trying to draw?
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Nonlinear FC »

While Johnnie is correct about the Insurrection Act, it is EXTREMELY rare for a president to send troops into a state without the request/permission of the governor. Examples include sending in the Airborne to Little Rock to force the desegregation of schools, because the Gov and NG refused to execute a federal law/executive order.

If you want to see a real shitshow, start dropping troops in Chicago, where the governor of the state is telling Trump to fuck the fuck off and see what happens. They have a national guard who has been deployed already.

This is all bullshit theater. Trump's not sending troops unless a governor requests it.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:58 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:48 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:46 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:40 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:03 am
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
Yeah, killing an enemy holed up in a foreign country is not precedent for calling out the military to start shooting Americans in the United States.
Why can’t Trump declare “Antifa members” to be enemies? Hasn’t he effectively already done so? And are you that confident in the extraterritoriality distinction as applied to “terrorists”? Al-Awlaki was still a US citizen even though he lived in Yemen. Why should we give “terrorists” more legal protections when they’re already in America and “threatening the homeland”?
Because he can’t.

No he hasn’t.

Yes.

Because it’s not simply about calling someone a “terrorist”.
So Presidents can legally assassinate US citizens if they’re Muslim terrorists in Yemen but not if they’re “Antifa terrorists” in Washington DC? Can Presidents assassinate Antifa terrorists overseas? Can they assassinate Muslim citizens “terrorists” within the US? And are you confident in the current iteration of the US Supreme Court recognizing whatever distinctions you’re trying to draw?
Yes.

No, unless they are actively engaged in activities covered by the AUMF in an area covered by the AUMF.

No.

Yes, mostly.

I think "can a President legally assassinate an American citizen" is the wrong framework for the al-Awlaki killing. It's "does being an American citizen mean that you can not be targeted in a military operation that would otherwise be authorized if you were not an American citizen?" And the answer was "When there are no other reasonable ways to bring the American citizen to justice, then yes."

The al-Awlaki killing took place under an extensive and complicated legal framework. I'm not an expert in that area. But it wasn't simply "I declare him to be a terrorist so bombs away."
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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Someone tried to sell some obviously looted Helly-Hansen foul weather gear on the local sailing group FB page yesterday.

Went about as well for him as you would hope for.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by The Sybian »

Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:46 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:40 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:03 am
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
Yeah, killing an enemy holed up in a foreign country is not precedent for calling out the military to start shooting Americans in the United States.
Why can’t Trump declare “Antifa members” to be enemies? Hasn’t he effectively already done so? And are you that confident in the extraterritoriality distinction as applied to “terrorists”? Al-Awlaki was still a US citizen even though he lived in Yemen. Why should we give “terrorists” more legal protections when they’re already in America and “threatening the homeland”?
I don't have time to research to confirm, but from what I understand, only foreign groups can be labelled as terrorist organizations. The second issue is that AntiFa isn't an organization, but an ideology. There is no leadership or structure. It's like declaring hipsters as a terrorist organization. The main legal purpose of declaring an organization as terrorists is to prevent money from leaving the country to fund the organization.

As for al-Awlaki, I don't remember the specifics, but I remember thinking it was a really dicey legal argument for killing him. That said, there is a vast difference between killing a known Al-Qaeda recruiter and collaborator (assuming he really was) in Yemen and ordering violence against an unorganized bunch of Millennials declaring an ideological label.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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The Sybian wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:14 pm
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:46 am
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:40 am
Joe K wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:03 am
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:56 am Of course, designating "ANTIFA" as a terrorist group means that whoever he deems is "ANTIFA" is worthy of being shot. And if he offers pardons to military members who shoot "ANTIFA," then that's it.
We already have precedent, from the Anwar al-Awkaki case, that they US President can order the assassination of a US citizen in the name of fighting terrorism. (Unironically: Thanks Obama!)
Yeah, killing an enemy holed up in a foreign country is not precedent for calling out the military to start shooting Americans in the United States.
Why can’t Trump declare “Antifa members” to be enemies? Hasn’t he effectively already done so? And are you that confident in the extraterritoriality distinction as applied to “terrorists”? Al-Awlaki was still a US citizen even though he lived in Yemen. Why should we give “terrorists” more legal protections when they’re already in America and “threatening the homeland”?
I don't have time to research to confirm, but from what I understand, only foreign groups can be labelled as terrorist organizations. The second issue is that AntiFa isn't an organization, but an ideology. There is no leadership or structure.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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I agree with this and would probably try to end all big protests for now to prevent feeding into the Trump narrative this is bringing. This type of protest made little change with Obama as president, so what are they achieving by doing it now? Find a new method to replace the marches (boycotts, strikes?). They made their point about being the problem of police brutality; now let's focus on the pandemic and broken economy again.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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On one hand I agree with you, on the other that's just letting the white supremacists and fascists who are doing all of the provoking and looting win. This is what they want.

(Still on the other hand, continuing to foment racial violence is also what they want so it's kind of a no-win situation.)
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by EdRomero »

Yeah, I didn't feel 100% right writing this idea because of what you said and the idea that people should not protest something that is majorly wrong with our country is so un-American, but these aren't normal times.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Johnnie »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:12 pmThis is all bullshit theater. Trump's not sending troops unless a governor requests it.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:13 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:12 pmThis is all bullshit theater. Trump's not sending troops unless a governor requests it.
Image
His entire presidency is full of him saying shit to get the base riled up and then not following up, or half-assing a follow up (The Wall is a great example.)

Happy to place a wager on it.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Johnnie »

brian wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:04 pm On one hand I agree with you, on the other that's just letting the white supremacists and fascists who are doing all of the provoking and looting win. This is what they want.

(Still on the other hand, continuing to foment racial violence is also what they want so it's kind of a no-win situation.)
Or on the other other hand, you stress cops out to their absolute max and they quit and start demanding change from the inside out.

And maybe Congress gets together and ends qualified immunity, ends public forfeiture, forces every police officer to be retrained in actual 'protect and serve' police tactics, and stops giving the police hand-me-down miliary weapons.

Maybe we can start there. Tear the fucking system down and rebuild it. But what it looks like on TV is that cops are crying foul more because their feelings are hurt than anything.

The rioting I won't defend. But when cops are basically counter protesters? They've escalated. It's bullshit.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by brian »

You guys are both right. Trump is famous for empty threats though by the same token, you can't completely dismiss the possibility. Still sending troops to a US state without the invitation of the governor would be unprecedented in American history and possibly in violation of the Constitution from what I understand.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Johnnie »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:16 pm
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:13 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:12 pmThis is all bullshit theater. Trump's not sending troops unless a governor requests it.
Image
His entire presidency is full of him saying shit to get the base riled up and then not following up, or half-assing a follow up (The Wall is a great example.)

Happy to place a wager on it.
I will Venmo you $5 if no active duty troops get called up and deployed to supplement the cops/National Guard.

I'll do what I can to follow the news with my limited wifi capability.

::social distance approved elbow bump::
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Nonlinear FC »

brian wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:23 pm You guys are both right. Trump is famous for empty threats though by the same token, you can't completely dismiss the possibility. Still sending troops to a US state without the invitation of the governor would be unprecedented in American history and possibly in violation of the Constitution from what I understand.
I'm not completely discounting it, especially if rioting really escalates.

But the scenario I painted before, where Trump tries to jam troops into a city (Chicago) without the permission of the Governor and Mayor? When NG troops are already deployed? There's simply no justification for that AND I truly wonder if the military would even deploy in that situation. What, they're gonna roam the streets as a separate entity to the NG?

I guess there's a mechanism to tell the NG to stand down, but holy shit that is just a bonkers situation to contemplate.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:25 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:16 pm
Johnnie wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:13 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:12 pmThis is all bullshit theater. Trump's not sending troops unless a governor requests it.
Image
His entire presidency is full of him saying shit to get the base riled up and then not following up, or half-assing a follow up (The Wall is a great example.)

Happy to place a wager on it.
I will Venmo you $5 if no active duty troops get called up and deployed to supplement the cops/National Guard.

I'll do what I can to follow the news with my limited wifi capability.

::social distance approved elbow bump::
Cool. Likewise.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Pruitt »

Oy vey.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Joe K »

EdRomero wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:57 pm

I agree with this and would probably try to end all big protests for now to prevent feeding into the Trump narrative this is bringing. This type of protest made little change with Obama as president, so what are they achieving by doing it now? Find a new method to replace the marches (boycotts, strikes?). They made their point about being the problem of police brutality; now let's focus on the pandemic and broken economy again.
I do not agree with the premise that past protests have had little impact. Some *very* progressive big-city prosecutors have gotten elected in the last few years and I doubt that happens without the BLM/police reform protest movements. Chesa Boudin is a great example of this. He’s the son of two Weather Underground parents, both of whom are convicted murderers, was raised by Bill Ayers and Bernadette Dohrn (two other WU members), and is now the top prosecutor in one of the biggest cities in America (SF). That’s pretty incredible! Larry Krasner is Philly is another good example.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I mean, fuckin' A guys.. The Civil Rights Act was enacted in no small part because of the reaction to the 1967 and 1968 riots and protests.

I hate to see what's going on, but it's pretty tough to tell black people (and their allies in the streets) that nothing good comes from rioting.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by brian »

I can promise you for a fact that Trump would be shitting himself, possibly literally, if tens of thousands of people keep showing up outside of the White House for the next few weeks every day.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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From Admiral Mike Mullen:

I Cannot Remain Silent
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EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

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This is America...

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by DaveInSeattle »

A letter to Defense Secretary Mark Esper
Dear Secretary Esper,

I resign from the Defense Science Board, effective immediately.

When I joined the Board in early 2014, after leaving government service as Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, I again swore an oath of office, one familiar to you, that includes the commitment to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States . . . and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same.”
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