Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:03 pm
What's also fucked up is imagining what charges (and surgeries) a bystander who saved Floyd's life would be facing right now.
It's the sixth version of The Swamp. What could possibly go wrong?
http://www.sportsfrog.net/phpbb/
I agree. My only hesitation of getting a certain conviction, which is different than your scenario, is the power dynamic on the the job. These guys are on duty, three civilians are not.tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:52 pmThey stood and watched. If this were not a gang of police and instead the same thing happened with civilians, and three others stood around and watched someone choke someone to death, they would face the same charges - rightfully.degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:51 pm Sounds like this afternoon Chauvin's charge will be upgraded to 2nd degree murder and the other three officers will be with aiding and abetting second-degree murder.
For Chauvin absolutely, for the three officers, i think that's going to be tough to prove.
Going to have to move any trial on these charges to the moon for an unbiased jury, in any case. There's no fucking way anyone hasn't seen the footage and subsequently not be biased one way or the other.degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:08 pmI agree. My only hesitation of getting a certain conviction, which is different than your scenario, is the power dynamic on the the job. These guys are on duty, three civilians are not.tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:52 pmThey stood and watched. If this were not a gang of police and instead the same thing happened with civilians, and three others stood around and watched someone choke someone to death, they would face the same charges - rightfully.degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:51 pm Sounds like this afternoon Chauvin's charge will be upgraded to 2nd degree murder and the other three officers will be with aiding and abetting second-degree murder.
For Chauvin absolutely, for the three officers, i think that's going to be tough to prove.
Police are trained not kill some guy on the ground, you would think. So if I were a police officer, there's no way I would think my senior (if he was the senior) would keep his knee on the guys neck to kill him. Any second now, he's going to get up, any second now. He's trained as a police officer not to do that. That would be my defense.
DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:15 pmGoing to have to move any trial on these charges to the moon for an unbiased jury, in any case. There's no fucking way anyone hasn't seen the footage and subsequently not be biased one way or the other.degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:08 pmI agree. My only hesitation of getting a certain conviction, which is different than your scenario, is the power dynamic on the the job. These guys are on duty, three civilians are not.tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:52 pmThey stood and watched. If this were not a gang of police and instead the same thing happened with civilians, and three others stood around and watched someone choke someone to death, they would face the same charges - rightfully.degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:51 pm Sounds like this afternoon Chauvin's charge will be upgraded to 2nd degree murder and the other three officers will be with aiding and abetting second-degree murder.
For Chauvin absolutely, for the three officers, i think that's going to be tough to prove.
Police are trained not kill some guy on the ground, you would think. So if I were a police officer, there's no way I would think my senior (if he was the senior) would keep his knee on the guys neck to kill him. Any second now, he's going to get up, any second now. He's trained as a police officer not to do that. That would be my defense.
I think it'd be a solid defense. Here's the Minnesota aiding and abetting statute.degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:08 pmPolice are trained not kill some guy on the ground, you would think. So if I were a police officer, there's no way I would think my senior (if he was the senior) would keep his knee on the guys neck to kill him. Any second now, he's going to get up, any second now. He's trained as a police officer not to do that. That would be my defense.
Especially with the upgrade to second degree murder, I don't see how the state could prove that these other cops intentionally aided in the intentional killing of George Floyd.Subdivision 1. Aiding, abetting; liability. A person is criminally liable for a crime committed by another if the person intentionally aids, advises, hires, counsels, or conspires with or otherwise procures the other to commit the crime.
There is one major issue with that story: VICE has confirmed the video was taken on a street corner in Gravesend, a part of South Brooklyn where no protests, looting or rioting actually occurred. Interviews with both workers in the area and location data from both Snapchat and Instagram show there were no protests anywhere near that corner.
Though several business owners in the area had seen or heard about the blue bins, all confirmed their street has been quiet; it’s worth pointing out, too, that Gravesend is extremely far from either Manhattan or Downtown Brooklyn, where many of the protest actions have taken place.
the person who originally posted it was Yaakov “Jack” Kaplan, whose bio says he lives in the Midwood area. Kaplan tweeted, in part, “Bricks have been placed strategically around Brooklyn in anticipation of protests. ANTIFA is way more organized than politicians pretend.” The video has been viewed more than a million times on Twitter.
Kaplan did not provide any evidence that the bricks were placed by Antifa. With the help of both Commissioner Shea and alt-right activist and conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec, who reposted the video, it has now been viewed more than one million times.
Is there possibly a different standard for this for sworn peace officers than an average citizen?The upgrade in Floyd's charge and the aiding-and-abetting charge against the other three are a political move designed to placate the protestors. Which is fine by me for now. But I would really be surprised if those charges went all the way to trial.
It'd certainly be a stretch, but could an argument be made (or have been made already) that if a policeman has an affirmative duty to protect life if there is no danger to themselves (again, if there is that duty on the books), by not pulling Chauvin off they were aiding in Floyd's killing?Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:23 pmI think it'd be a solid defense. Here's the Minnesota aiding and abetting statute.degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:08 pmPolice are trained not kill some guy on the ground, you would think. So if I were a police officer, there's no way I would think my senior (if he was the senior) would keep his knee on the guys neck to kill him. Any second now, he's going to get up, any second now. He's trained as a police officer not to do that. That would be my defense.
Especially with the upgrade to second degree murder, I don't see how the state could prove that these other cops intentionally aided in the intentional killing of George Floyd.Subdivision 1. Aiding, abetting; liability. A person is criminally liable for a crime committed by another if the person intentionally aids, advises, hires, counsels, or conspires with or otherwise procures the other to commit the crime.
The upgrade in Floyd's charge and the aiding-and-abetting charge against the other three are a political move designed to placate the protestors. Which is fine by me for now. But I would really be surprised if those charges went all the way to trial.
Generally for the average citizen there is no duty to aid, despite what the Seinfeld finale would have you think, but that certainly doesn't apply across the board with peace officers.brian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:30 pmIs there possibly a different standard for this for sworn peace officers than an average citizen?The upgrade in Floyd's charge and the aiding-and-abetting charge against the other three are a political move designed to placate the protestors. Which is fine by me for now. But I would really be surprised if those charges went all the way to trial.
I don't think so. Cops have some extra defenses, given that part of their job does involve physically subduing people. Which will make a charge even harder to prove.brian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:30 pmIs there possibly a different standard for this for sworn peace officers than an average citizen?The upgrade in Floyd's charge and the aiding-and-abetting charge against the other three are a political move designed to placate the protestors. Which is fine by me for now. But I would really be surprised if those charges went all the way to trial.
I haven't seen anything substantiated, but all the leftist social media I've been privy to has urged everyone to stay away from the brick piles as they've been planted by anti-antifa instigators.DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:29 pm NYPD Claims ‘Looters’ Put Bricks at a Brooklyn Corner Miles From Any Protest
There is one major issue with that story: VICE has confirmed the video was taken on a street corner in Gravesend, a part of South Brooklyn where no protests, looting or rioting actually occurred. Interviews with both workers in the area and location data from both Snapchat and Instagram show there were no protests anywhere near that corner.Though several business owners in the area had seen or heard about the blue bins, all confirmed their street has been quiet; it’s worth pointing out, too, that Gravesend is extremely far from either Manhattan or Downtown Brooklyn, where many of the protest actions have taken place.the person who originally posted it was Yaakov “Jack” Kaplan, whose bio says he lives in the Midwood area. Kaplan tweeted, in part, “Bricks have been placed strategically around Brooklyn in anticipation of protests. ANTIFA is way more organized than politicians pretend.” The video has been viewed more than a million times on Twitter.
Kaplan did not provide any evidence that the bricks were placed by Antifa. With the help of both Commissioner Shea and alt-right activist and conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec, who reposted the video, it has now been viewed more than one million times.
They won't be happy until we get a Kent State 2.0One thing above all else will restore order to our streets: an overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers. But local law enforcement in some cities desperately needs backup, while delusional politicians in other cities refuse to do what’s necessary to uphold the rule of law.
I think their name tapes are on their uniforms but under the IOTV (Improved Outer Tactical Vest). As to the question, I don't think I have to identify myself at all. In fact, my name tapes and rank are velcro'd on in the event I get captured I can tear off everything.
The Cafe insider with Preet and Anne Milgram from Tuesday covers this in detail. One key item is that cops now are trained to NOT restrain people in the manner they did Floyd as there is high risk of asphyxiation. Given that they are trained not to do that, and they still stood and watched, they felt aiding and abetting for the others has some legs. Add in that at one point one cop checked for a pulse, couldn’t find one, and they still didn’t move for two minutes...Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:38 pmI don't think so. Cops have some extra defenses, given that part of their job does involve physically subduing people. Which will make a charge even harder to prove.brian wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:30 pmIs there possibly a different standard for this for sworn peace officers than an average citizen?The upgrade in Floyd's charge and the aiding-and-abetting charge against the other three are a political move designed to placate the protestors. Which is fine by me for now. But I would really be surprised if those charges went all the way to trial.
If four of us tackled a guy and sat on him until he died, there would be no doubt that we all committed a crime. We aren't supposed to be getting physical with anyone. But cops are required by law to arrest people, which means physically restraining them and subduing them if the arrestee resists.
Failing to aid someone in distress might be a separate crime, but if there is such a thing, I don't think it'd be a serious felony.
I think it's a solid case against Chauvin for third-degree murder. But I don't know about the other charges.
I heard the same, BoP riot guys. Not sure they are authorized to work crowd control on free civilians protesting, and quite sure they aren't trained for it. It's very scary, as they are trained to use maximum force to squash a prison riot as quickly and effectively as possible without concern for the safety of the prisoners. Not the guys you want on the streets at protests. I've also seen Border Patrol and Customs and Border Protection officers patrolling the streets. Again, I'm not sure if they are legally authorized to be there, but they quite certainly aren't trained for this. I know first hand that CBP and Border Patrol don't do a great job in screening out officers who aren't psychologically cut out for law enforcement, and I know it's gotten much worse since I left. Both are filled with wannabe cops and military guys who couldn't hack it the military or get into a police force. Lots of subpar intellects itching for a fight and drunk off the power of wearing a uniform, badge and service issued firearms.Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:20 pm Pretty sure they're with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, which is up under DoJ. I read where these guys are the prison riot guys.
There were fucking DEA agents out there yesterday. Like, the whackadoo gyrations Barr is making to justify these guys being put in the streets is insane... but wholly expected, of course.The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:42 amI heard the same, BoP riot guys. Not sure they are authorized to work crowd control on free civilians protesting, and quite sure they aren't trained for it. It's very scary, as they are trained to use maximum force to squash a prison riot as quickly and effectively as possible without concern for the safety of the prisoners. Not the guys you want on the streets at protests. I've also seen Border Patrol and Customs and Border Protection officers patrolling the streets. Again, I'm not sure if they are legally authorized to be there, but they quite certainly aren't trained for this. I know first hand that CBP and Border Patrol don't do a great job in screening out officers who aren't psychologically cut out for law enforcement, and I know it's gotten much worse since I left. Both are filled with wannabe cops and military guys who couldn't hack it the military or get into a police force. Lots of subpar intellects itching for a fight and drunk off the power of wearing a uniform, badge and service issued firearms.Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:20 pm Pretty sure they're with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, which is up under DoJ. I read where these guys are the prison riot guys.
Yeah, this is not a promising development.The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:42 amI heard the same, BoP riot guys. Not sure they are authorized to work crowd control on free civilians protesting, and quite sure they aren't trained for it. It's very scary, as they are trained to use maximum force to squash a prison riot as quickly and effectively as possible without concern for the safety of the prisoners. Not the guys you want on the streets at protests. I've also seen Border Patrol and Customs and Border Protection officers patrolling the streets. Again, I'm not sure if they are legally authorized to be there, but they quite certainly aren't trained for this. I know first hand that CBP and Border Patrol don't do a great job in screening out officers who aren't psychologically cut out for law enforcement, and I know it's gotten much worse since I left. Both are filled with wannabe cops and military guys who couldn't hack it the military or get into a police force. Lots of subpar intellects itching for a fight and drunk off the power of wearing a uniform, badge and service issued firearms.Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:20 pm Pretty sure they're with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, which is up under DoJ. I read where these guys are the prison riot guys.
The other owner (the liberal) just called me and we had a good one hour conversation where he said he was really glad to see a white person in the company go off about the importance of trying to effect change as a company. I think this is going to be a lot of fun. I don't know what we're going to do, but there's a lot we can do like setting up a mentorship, job shadowing and internship program with a STEM high school in St. Louis to internal education for our cracker-ass employees from small towns.
Hope that all works out but I imagine you'll be up against a lot of red tape, this is a dumb idea people, and lazy people. How close are the two owners? Is this something that could split them? The no change guy usually win against the change guy.brian wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:17 pmThe other owner (the liberal) just called me and we had a good one hour conversation where he said he was really glad to see a white person in the company go off about the importance of trying to effect change as a company. I think this is going to be a lot of fun. I don't know what we're going to do, but there's a lot we can do like setting up a mentorship, job shadowing and internship program with a STEM high school in St. Louis to internal education for our cracker-ass employees from small towns.