The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:21 pm

mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:15 am
Not all cops are bad, I'm not at that extreme, but fuck if almost all cops don't seem to cover for the bad rather than side with good citizens.
God, this. A few months ago I got into it with a prosecutor friend who texted a photo of himself wearing a thin blue line mask - about a week before George Floyd was murdered. He said "I gotta support cops." But of course that's not supporting cops, it's simply opposing people who are opposing bad cops and bad shootings.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:27 pm

One cop charged with three counts of wanton endangerment. That's it.

Of course, I have no idea if additional charges would be appropriate - but now that we are this far in, shit's going to happen anyway.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:35 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:27 pm
One cop charged with three counts of wanton endangerment. That's it.

Of course, I have no idea if additional charges would be appropriate - but now that we are this far in, shit's going to happen anyway.
It’s going to get bad.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by BSF21 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:41 pm

Yep. Plays perfectly as a political stunt.

We're all so fucked.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:47 pm

Holy shit. The counts are related to the shots that went into neighbors apartments. Not Taylor’s.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:55 pm

I'm not trying to devil's advocate here but the individual cops actions don't seem like the biggest problem to me. Granted, we know atleast one is a complete piece of shit, I'm referring only to that night. In a bubble, they were shot at and they shot back. Most every major situation involving cops and the black community right now are one-sided incidents of violence. No-knock warrants or announced entries or whatever they're called are bigger problems. Policing drugs like this in the first place is a much bigger problem. Putting the focus on the officer's shots and not the situation that led to it is intentional obfuscation and I'm sure working.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:57 pm

(That is not, I hope obviously, claiming the boyfriend did anything wrong protecting his house. Situations like this are intended to create bad results.)
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by BSF21 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:58 pm

mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:55 pm
I'm not trying to devil's advocate here but the individual cops actions don't seem like the biggest problem to me. Granted, we know atleast one is a complete piece of shit, I'm referring only to that night. In a bubble, they were shot at and they shot back. Most every major situation involving cops and the black community right now are one-sided incidents of violence. No-knock warrants or announced entries or whatever they're called are bigger problems. Policing drugs like this in the first place is a much bigger problem. Putting the focus on the officer's shots and not the situation that led to it is intentional obfuscation and I'm sure working.
You aren't wrong, but the distillation of this is you have the right to defend yourself in your own home UNLESS you're a black man. It's a rigged game.

I'm sorry I'm just so mad right now it's hard to channel my thoughts. Not even so much at this singular incident but the pain and ripple effect it's going to have for so many.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:03 pm

Absolutely. If the cops were personally absolved but the tactics behind the incident were banned, it would be a far greater loss for the department and union than if these three cops had been indicted and convicted. Their power is that they can create or escalate a situation and still be right.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:20 pm

I think you're right, D. What happened with Taylor is an inherent risk of no-knock warrants, and I am pretty sure this has happened several times before.

There needs to be a law making it a crime to unreasonably create a situation where lethal self-defense will become necessary.

The Tamir Rice shooting falls into that category - the cops drove right up to the kid and then "had to" shoot him in reasonable self defense when he didn't drop his toy in four seconds. I think the Trayvon Martin situation fits it also - Zimmerman started a fight and then "had to" shoot Martin in reasonable self-defense after the fight went bad for him.

In this situation, it was reasonable for the guy in the apartment to shoot at whoever was breaking down their door. But it was also reasonable for the cops to shoot back after they were being fired at. The problem is the raid in the first place.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:27 pm

I don't at all think this is comparable to Tamir or Trayvon, for the record.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:34 pm

Oh, the press conference went according to script. And if you take them at their word then this is justice.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:37 pm

Did anyone ask how future situations like this could be avoided or is that too controversial?
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:39 pm

And what's the perfect inverse of a black person not being allowed to defend themselves with a gun?
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:41 pm

mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:37 pm
Did anyone ask how future situations like this could be avoided or is that too controversial?
They did and it was a routine response that everything is assessed to see how to act accordingly, I believe.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by L-Jam3 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:50 pm

mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:37 pm
Did anyone ask how future situations like this could be avoided or is that too controversial?
It's sadly obvious that no-knock warrants are permitted because of fears of destruction of evidence, and it's plainly clear that drug convictions are more important than the lives of black suspects.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:58 pm

L-Jam3 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:50 pm
mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:37 pm
Did anyone ask how future situations like this could be avoided or is that too controversial?
It's sadly obvious that no-knock warrants are permitted because of fears of destruction of evidence, and it's plainly clear that drug convictions are more important than the lives of black suspects.
They reiterated several times that they knocked and announced their presence.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:05 pm

Which, whether they did or didn't, in the middle of the night means shit.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:11 pm

mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:05 pm
Which, whether they did or didn't, in the middle of the night means shit.
Agreed. It was so disheartening to just see it painted as "cops doing their job"
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:16 pm

Consenting human shields.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by HaulCitgo » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:44 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:20 pm
I think you're right, D. What happened with Taylor is an inherent risk of no-knock warrants, and I am pretty sure this has happened several times before.

There needs to be a law making it a crime to unreasonably create a situation where lethal self-defense will become necessary.

The Tamir Rice shooting falls into that category - the cops drove right up to the kid and then "had to" shoot him in reasonable self defense when he didn't drop his toy in four seconds. I think the Trayvon Martin situation fits it also - Zimmerman started a fight and then "had to" shoot Martin in reasonable self-defense after the fight went bad for him.

In this situation, it was reasonable for the guy in the apartment to shoot at whoever was breaking down their door. But it was also reasonable for the cops to shoot back after they were being fired at. The problem is the raid in the first place.
Pretty much ended the red dogs around here.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:04 pm

A_B wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:58 pm
L-Jam3 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:50 pm
mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:37 pm
Did anyone ask how future situations like this could be avoided or is that too controversial?
It's sadly obvious that no-knock warrants are permitted because of fears of destruction of evidence, and it's plainly clear that drug convictions are more important than the lives of black suspects.
They reiterated several times that they knocked and announced their presence.
They say they did. Don’t other witnesses dispute it?

I actually managed to avoid reading much about the whole thing until this came across my feed. It’s a good explanation of what happened.

https://amp.courier-journal.com/amp/532 ... ssion=true
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:11 pm

It’s been corroborated by one person apparently.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by DSafetyGuy » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:20 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:20 pm
The Tamir Rice shooting falls into that category - the cops drove right up to the kid and then "had to" shoot him in reasonable self defense when he didn't drop his toy in four seconds.
Police car stops at 8:38, Rice is on the ground by 8:40. That is in no way self defense.

There are reports on twitter that, while three charges were filed, four different walls/ceilings were shot, and the upstairs neighbor, who is Black, was not cited by initials in the charges.

Defund the police.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by DaveInSeattle » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:24 pm

A_B wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:47 pm
Holy shit. The counts are related to the shots that went into neighbors apartments. Not Taylor’s.
After the Michael Brown grand jury, I commented that yes, an AG can indict a ham sandwich, but an AG can also NOT indict a ham sandwich.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:39 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:20 pm
Police car stops at 8:38, Rice is on the ground by 8:40
That’s my point - the cops created a situation where any kind of flinch by Tamir, who was holding what looked like a gun, would lead them to use lethal force in self-defense. And self-defense was found to be a justification, because for that defense, all that matters is the seconds preceding the shooting.

Tamir Rice shooting was 'justified' - experts http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34499044
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:46 pm

I still don't like equating cops (inaccurately) returning fire with cops initiating fire on a little kid.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Johnnie » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:50 pm

"Burn Louisville" is trending. It's most certainly gotta be Russian misinformation. If only they could figure out how and control it!
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:54 pm

WDRB has an app on roku and fire stick where you can watch their coverage.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Rex » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:59 pm

I also had not read much about the actual event. They sent 3 officers and a battering ram to collect evidence from a minor suspect and admitted “soft” target? If that’s the case, I think a lot of the other facts are noise.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:01 pm

Rex wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:59 pm
I also had not read much about the actual event. They sent 3 officers and a battering ram to collect evidence from a minor suspect and admitted “soft” target? If that’s the case, I think a lot of the other facts are noise.
Correct. I think the FBI investigation might render much different results.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by mister d » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:47 pm

Absolutely, which might still absolve the officers but condemn those in command.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:38 pm

mister d wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:47 pm
Absolutely, which might still absolve the officers but condemn those in command.
Which I think is one answer to the question I see going around Twitter, why did the City pay a wrongful death settlement when no one is charged with a crime.

The whole thing was fucked up institutionally. But it's hard to say where anyone committed a serious crime beyond a reasonable doubt if they were simply returning fire from Taylor's boyfriend.

That being said, I would love there to be a civil rights prosecution of the people who tried to get Taylor's ex-boyfriend to falsely say that Taylor had been selling drugs.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Rex » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:55 am

It’s a bit like blaming the two privates who carried out the code red, no? Did they do anything wrong? Yes, in a way. But the people with real culpability seem to be the people who put them in that position. And that doesn’t mean “institutions”—real, actual people made these decisions. Someone had to decide it was a good idea to send three officers (one of whom could have died, it appears) and a battering ram to go collect evidence from a young lady that nobody believed to be violent or a major suspect. If the officers failed to follow their instructions, that’s one thing. But from what I read here, the instructions seem to have been 1) knock politely, 2) break into the apartment with force, which means step 1 was an irrelevant formality. The real crime seems to have been the choice to do this in the first place, and the focus should be on who made that choice.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Shirley » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:30 am

Yeah, to be honest, I don't know what to think about this Breonna Taylor issue. There's no doubt to me that she was an innocent victim and didn't deserve to be gunned down in her own home. But ... it's also not clear to me that the cops murdered her.

If you're like I was recently and didn't know the exact facts (other than the false claim that the was shot in her sleep or even in bed), read this - https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 467112001/. It's a great timeline of the sequence of events that led to the tragedy.

Essentially, the cops DID have a no-knock warrant for her apartment. They had it because her ex-boyfriend, the drug dealer, did still visit here and received mail at her apartment. The police did knock before they entered. Her current boyfriend (not the drug dealer) was in the apartment with her and fired his gun when the cops came in, because they thought someone was breaking in. At that point, the cops responded by opening fire, which is reasonable, given the circumstances.

So, was her death unnecessary? Of course. Was it avoidable? Of course. But was it the fault of the cops who, following orders, busted in on her? I don't know. That doesn't seem totally fair to them either. The entire system broke down here, I think.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by BSF21 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:46 am

Let's start here with the initial avoidable sequence of that timeline. What the fuck does it matter if its knock or no knock at 12:40AM? In plainclothes. It's pretty clear the objective is to break in to the home on the warrant.

I used to work dispatch at a PD in a primarily white area. We did warrant services. We never did them in the middle of the night. The idea here is knock and announce or no knock, they're trying to catch a suspect asleep/disoriented.

I think Moreta could weigh in here too if she feels compelled. She's had a lot of close work with law enforcement.

The overwhelming issue I have is regardless of the tangle web of justified or tragic accident or execution or what, police who get into tactical units that I have personally encountered have a very "us or them" mentality. They don't view it as protecting/serving their community. The job is to get bad guys, they've got their mind made up that this is a bad guy and know that they're overwhelmingly protected over any civilian they might hurt or kill, guilty or not. And when it works they get to high five their buddies and feel good about "getting drugs off the street" or whatever when all of that effort and waste and senseless violence could be channeled back into the community. In to social workers being able to respond to non-threatening calls. In to walking the beat of a community that you as an officer are responsible for. Into education of the disadvantaged areas to help lift those people up. But instead we promise these guys cars and guns and limitless protections by their peers and when you grow up watching COPS that's what you get.

Taylor is tragic and senseless and a flashpoint. The real issue is the same as the military industrial complex and an inflated stock market and at your company that has too much middle management. How do you "defund" these things once they get this big? How much of the US economy is wrapped up in Boeing making Milspec? How much of your local tax dollars now go to the police department because of "safety"? How many extra people above you in your position at work right now are truly needed to do the work that needs done? Ripping the bandaid off hurts.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Joe K » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:25 am

Agree with basically everything BSF said. It’s not surprising, given the circumstances, that there were no homicide charges against the police. The more important question is why, with all we know about its terrible secondary effects, the USA is still committed to “War on Drugs” tactics. Even if Taylor’s ex-boyfriend were storing drugs at her apartment, or for that matter living there, is it really justifiable to execute a warrant in the middle of the night in a residential area, and invite the inherent risk of violence that comes with that?

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:32 am

Joe K wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:25 am
Even if Taylor’s ex-boyfriend were storing drugs at her apartment, or for that matter living there, is it really justifiable to execute a warrant in the middle of the night in a residential area, and invite the inherent risk of violence that comes with that?
No. No, it is not.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by Johnnie » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:15 am

I just can't wrap my head around the logic that stray bullets only matter when they could've hit someone instead of actually hitting someone
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart

Post by A_B » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:15 am

Image
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

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