Godless III - Completing The Trinity

[A_B]

Eh. Some pastors have spent a pretty good amount of time/schooling to study the bible, so it's possible that they may have insights that aren't as easy to get as the layman.

[Jerloma]

Well sure but I don't care if you're Thomas Aquinas...until you can demonstrate that something is true, being a scholar of it doesn't make your insight valuable any more than being a scholar of say...Greek mythology. (When applied to the real world of course. It's valuable in a literary education sense.)

[A_B]

Well sure but I don't care if you're Thomas Aquinas...until you can demonstrate that something is true, being a scholar of it doesn't make your insight valuable any more than being a scholar of say...Greek mythology. (When applied to the real world of course. It's valuable in a literary education sense.)

Well, I agree with that, but just like if you were wanting to go listen to NDT talk about some of his theories, you accept that he knows more than you and that his insights are therefore more valuable. People going to church put that same trust in their pastor.

[The Sybian]

But as an adult, I have to agree with J-Lo. The Abraham circumcision story really makes no sense, and I was really thinking about it this morning, and sealed the deal that I'm not teaching my kids religion until they are old enough to question what they are told.

My kids actually go to church with my wife when she feels inclined to actually go. I don't mind at all but I tell them three things...

1. That person standing in front of a room is just a person like you and me sharing their opinion. They have no deeper insights into things we can't observe than anyone else.

2. That book they're reading is just a book like Harry Potter or Junie B Jones is a book. There's nothing magical about it...whatsoever.

3. There's no such thing as hell. Anyone who tries to threaten you with pain and torture for not thinking the same thing that they think is a bad person and should not be trusted.

This tends to make the indoctrination process challenging. If they do embrace these ideas...so be it. But it will be because they find them plausible; not because they find them tenacious.

Also, when my kids ask me questions about the world, I tend not to make things up. If you expose them to the wonders of science at an early age...those miracles in the bible just come off looking cheap and tawdry.

And if they ask me what happens after we die, I don't tell them we're just worm food either. I just tell them that nobody really knows but the unknown shouldn't scare you. Then I ask them what they think happens after we die.

Okay, that's all you get. No charge for that, fellas.

Hodor

[Jerloma]

This is what I said...

They have no deeper insights into things we can't observe than anyone else.

NDT isn't saying that you should believe something because he has great knowledge of it. He's saying it's true because it can be observed and/or predicted based on laws of the universe that have been empirically tested so many times that we can reasonably deem them to be consistent. I understand that parishioners view their pastors as insightful but that's because they've already assumed that what they're talking about is true without him or her having to demonstrate it. NDT would be insulted if you believed what he said just because he's a famous astrophysicist. This is what makes science so awesome.

[The Sybian]

This is what I said...

They have no deeper insights into things we can't observe than anyone else.

NDT isn't saying that you should believe something because he has great knowledge of it. He's saying it's true because it can be observed and/or predicted based on laws of the universe that have been empirically tested so many times that we can reasonably deem them to be consistent. I understand that parishioners view their pastors as insightful but that's because they've already assumed that what they're talking about is true without him or her having to demonstrate it. NDT would be insulted if you believed what he said just because he's a famous astrophysicist. This is what makes science so awesome.

Actually, I'm pretty sure in one of his books on Quantum Physics, NDT said that if the reader questioned his theories, than NDT would banish him to an eternity in a wormhole.

[Shirley]

I wonder how many OB/GYN's practice circumcisions. I trust the experts.

I'm gonna guess all of them. I would guess that most perform an average of one or more per day.

I watched my kids get circumcised. They were both less than 1 day old and it only took a few seconds. A small amount of blood, a bandage for a couple of days and that's it.

Honestly, it was MUCH less traumatic to them than the various shots they have to get in their first six months.

[A_B]

I wonder how many OB/GYN's practice circumcisions. I trust the experts.

I'm gonna guess all of them. I would guess that most perform an average of one or more per day.

I watched my kids get circumcised. They were both less than 1 day old and it only took a few seconds. A small amount of blood, a bandage for a couple of days and that's it.

Honestly, it was MUCH less traumatic to them than the various shots they have to get in their first six months.

I hear horror stories from people who get circumcised and can't walk for a year.

[The Sybian]

I wonder how many OB/GYN's practice circumcisions. I trust the experts.

I'm gonna guess all of them. I would guess that most perform an average of one or more per day.

I watched my kids get circumcised. They were both less than 1 day old and it only took a few seconds. A small amount of blood, a bandage for a couple of days and that's it.

Honestly, it was MUCH less traumatic to them than the various shots they have to get in their first six months.

I hear horror stories from people who get circumcised and can't walk for a year.

Well played, skin test. And BFJ, like Shirley said, I would venture a guess that my wife's OB/GYN has performed over 3,000 circumcisions. He has been delivering babies for about 40 years, on average 200 a year. And that isn't taking multiples into account. The procedure took less than 2 minutes, healed in a couple of days. Doesn't seem very complicated. I trusted the guy to perform surgery to cut my wife's abdomen open, remove her internal organs, cut her uterus open and remove our babies on 2 occasions, so I think I can trust him to pull a loose flap of skin off. The guy is a licensed surgeon FFS.

[ZMan]

I have no idea if you're fucking with me or not so I'm just gonna go to sleep.

Not fucking.

I had never even heard of Minchin until you posted a couple of his vids here, and those are all I've seen. I assumed that was the way he was. Is that just an on stage persona?

[Jerloma]

I have no idea if you're fucking with me or not so I'm just gonna go to sleep.

Not fucking.

I had never even heard of Minchin until you posted a couple of his vids here, and those are all I've seen. I assumed that was the way he was. Is that just an on stage persona?

Yeah, the guy is a total nerd. Everything he does is dripping in irony. He actually married the girl he lost his virginity to.

[ZMan]

Any clips of the real him? It kind of bothers me when a performer is always in char and never comes out. Especially in an interview. If I want to see your act, I'll buy a ticket. You're being interviewed now...be yourself, that's what we want to see.

[Scottie]

Any clips of the real him? It kind of bothers me when a performer is always in char and never comes out. Especially in an interview. If I want to see your act, I'll buy a ticket. You're being interviewed now...be yourself, that's what we want to see.

[Johnny Hotcakes]

So, are we talking circumcisions now? Interestingly enough, in Canada circumcisions are no longer done at hospitals (I believe it has something to do with insurance issues). Very few doctors actually do it for that reason, and you have to go to a private clinic to have it done. You really have to go out of your way. Here in Vancouver, Dr. Pollock has the market cornered on circumcisions. He literally personally performs 2/3s of all circumcisions in the lower mainland. In fact, his entire practice is dedicated to two procedures: circumcisions and vasectomies. Essentially, the man is an expert when it comes to maiming cocks n balls.

Just thought that was interesting.

[howard]

And he gets to keep the tips, right?

[Johnny Hotcakes]

HEL-LO!

[Jerloma]

Any clips of the real him? It kind of bothers me when a performer is always in char and never comes out. Especially in an interview. If I want to see your act, I'll buy a ticket. You're being interviewed now...be yourself, that's what we want to see.

Yeah man...all kinds of shit like that where he comes off as a completely genuine normal guy...good 3 part interview starts here...

While I'm here though, this is an absolutely amazing cover of Tim and Gerry Quinn covering Leonard Cohen at some wine bar in Switzerland...



That's more him just being himself.

[bfj]

I honestly don't know how many did the procedure, that's why I wrote "I wonder" in my post. I would imagine mohels do a fair amount also. Multiple procedures/day every day. I would consider both of them experts. As long as they aren't mouthing my kid's D.

I thought when you said the procedure was barbaric, you were taking the "mutilating the genitals" route. You just don't like the religious aspect of it. I get that. I don't consider that barbaric. I put it in the "weird religious nonsense" category. Considering Jews were the only people who practiced the ritual for a looooong time, the ritual was performed at your home/synagogue.

Now that I think about it. It is more barbaric to do because "I want my kid's D to look like everyone else's". At least Jews put some reason, no matter how ridiculous that reason seems, into the ceremony.

Of course, I don't really care what your kid's D looks like and to each his own.

[rass]

A Story of God and All of Us: A Novel Based on the Epic TV Miniseries "The Bible"

[Brontoburglar]

this is like the seven degrees of Kevin Bacon replaced with Jesus game at this point

[Jerloma]

A Story of God and All of Us: A Novel Based on the Epic TV Miniseries "The Bible"

Okay...that's absolutely fantastic. I've been waiting for the novel Jaws to come out but not the actual novel...the novel based on the movie that's based on the novel. These people are the fucking best.

[Jerloma]

Some of you guys might have heard of Dr. Ken Miller? He's a renowned evolutionary biologist and probably mostly known for completely dismantling Intelligent Design at the Dover Trial in 05 when they tried to sneak this crap into the science classrooms in PA (Great Nova Documentary here).



Anyway, I took a little dig at him in a blog post about Bobby Jindal and he actually came across it somehow and responded to me. Pretty cool...

“Art Vandalay” wrote: “I know we’re supposed to be bagging on Jindal here but that’s too easy. I don’t get Ken Miller. I mean, he’s obviously an extremely intelligent and competent evolutionary biologist and he did all that great work in Dover, completely dismantling ID. At the end of the day, the guy believes in theistic evolution. He believes that what’s been going on with natural selection over the last 3 billion years or so has been a divinely guided process with homo-sapiens being the intended result of all of it. I simply fail to see how that’s any more scientific than ID.”

No, I don’t believe that natural selection is a “divinely guided process,” and I’ve stated that clearly time and time again. I accept the evidence, which is that evolution is a fully-naturalistis process, and that the outcome of that process is not predetermined or guided by outside forces.
Here’s the difference between my view (which is the mainstream scientific view) and ID: I believe that natural processes were fully sufficient to bring about the world of life we see today. An ID-er believes that they were not. Clear enough?

– Ken Miller

[howard]

There was a trial regarding the teaching of evolution in a classroom in the USA in the 21st century? Are you fucking kidding me?

I am so glad that completely escaped my radar. For fucks sake.

[sancarlos]

So, Ken Miller is this century's Clarence Darrow? Works for me. But, discouraging that this issue isn't settled in our country's classrooms, yet.

[Shirley]

I actually watched that documentary a few weeks back with my wife. She teaches Education Law at a law school with a lot of idiot Christian students who tend to fall on the wrong side of this "debate." (in quotes, because come-fucking-on) She actually has to be a little careful in the way she tells these people they are fucking idiots.

Actually, from a purely legal perspective, it's not that difficult an issue, or at least it shouldn't be. Unfortunately, these people try to claim that ID is NOT religiously based.

[The Sybian]

Whoa, Jindal has a Biology degree from Brown and believes there is no harm in teaching children Creationism in public schools? Hoe is it possible to hold a science degree from an Ivy League school and maintain that level of cognitive dissonance regarding religious beliefs and scientific evidence holding equal weight? Boggles my mind.

As a side note, if a Hindu or any non-Judeo-Christian science teacher in a Louisiana public school felt compelled to teach their religions creation myth story as an equivalent to evolution, I'm sure that'd be fine with Jindal and the rest of the ID'ers, right?

[The Sybian]

I actually watched that documentary a few weeks back with my wife. She teaches Education Law at a law school with a lot of idiot Christian students who tend to fall on the wrong side of this "debate." (in quotes, because come-fucking-on) She actually has to be a little careful in the way she tells these people they are fucking idiots.

Actually, from a purely legal perspective, it's not that difficult an issue, or at least it shouldn't be. Unfortunately, these people try to claim that ID is NOT religiously based.

"G-d did it" is not religiously based?

[Jerloma]

As a side note, if a Hindu or any non-Judeo-Christian science teacher in a Louisiana public school felt compelled to teach their religions creation myth story as an equivalent to evolution, I'm sure that'd be fine with Jindal and the rest of the ID'ers, right?

Heh...something like that already happened.

[The Sybian]

As a side note, if a Hindu or any non-Judeo-Christian science teacher in a Louisiana public school felt compelled to teach their religions creation myth story as an equivalent to evolution, I'm sure that'd be fine with Jindal and the rest of the ID'ers, right?

Heh...something like that already happened.

Oh, believe me, I am very much aware of this. If there was any money in it, I'd find a way to devote my career to fighting these loons. I realize I wouldn't make much difference, but if I'm going to be talkin' law for a living, it might as well be a topic I care about it or am interested in. Petty squabbles between small business partners sure as hell ain't it. I might as well be teaching daycare, at least the combatants do cute and funny things in between childish bickering and take naps to give me a respite.

[Shirley]

I actually watched that documentary a few weeks back with my wife. She teaches Education Law at a law school with a lot of idiot Christian students who tend to fall on the wrong side of this "debate." (in quotes, because come-fucking-on) She actually has to be a little careful in the way she tells these people they are fucking idiots.

Actually, from a purely legal perspective, it's not that difficult an issue, or at least it shouldn't be. Unfortunately, these people try to claim that ID is NOT religiously based.

"G-d did it" is not religiously based?

They realized that would be a problem, so they did a Find And Replace on their textbook to change it to "designer". I shit you not. In fact, that's one of the smoking guns that led to them them losing this case. They were so sloppy, that they actually fucked up other words:

In the Kitzmiller case, the disguise was patently obvious. "Intelligent design proponents" there sought to have the book Of Pandas and People, a creationist screed, taught as part of a new "intelligent design" curriculum at the local Dover public high school. ID supporters hoped to prove at trial that the book was legitimate science, and not creationism. However, there was one slight problem - the book was a book about creationism, with the words "creator," "creationism," etc., merely replaced with "designer," "intelligent design," etc. by a basic word-processor "find/replace" function. The ruse was made glaringly obvious by spelling errors like "cdesign proponentsists."[6]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Intelligent_design" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jerloma]

The ruse was made glaringly obvious by spelling errors like "cdesign proponentsists."

That's fantastic. Miller didn't exactly have his hands full, did he.

[rass]

Some filmmakers could use some help making a movie about the life of Jesus.

[The Sybian]

Some filmmakers could use some help making a movie about the life of Jesus.

That looks like the greatest movie ever. It is like Monty Python, Mel Brooks, and Quentin Tarantino rolled into one.

[sancarlos]

And, a hint of Clockwork Orange. (at least in the poster.)

[The Sybian]

And, a hint of Clockwork Orange. (at least in the poster.)

Yeah, just the poster. In college, Clockwork was my favorite movie what with the Poli. Sci and Psych majors. And the warped mentality, love of Ludwug van, the Ultra-violence and the ol' In-out in-out.

[Steve of phpBB]

In college, Clockwork was my favorite movie what with the Poli. Sci and Psych majors. And the warped mentality, love of Ludwug van, the Ultra-violence and the ol' In-out in-out.

Wwe dressed up for Halloween as the Droogies.

It was frightening how aggressive we got.

[The Sybian]

In college, Clockwork was my favorite movie what with the Poli. Sci and Psych majors. And the warped mentality, love of Ludwug van, the Ultra-violence and the ol' In-out in-out.

Wwe dressed up for Halloween as the Droogies.

It was frightening how aggressive we got.

It was all fun and games until you raped some lady with a giant phallic piece of modern art.

[Jerloma]

I hate that I never thought of that for a Halloween costume. Luckily, I still have time.

[howard]

We considered that one year in college. We went with Devo instead.

[rass]

Seems appropriate here.
h/t