Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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EnochRoot
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by EnochRoot » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:57 pm

A_B wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:32 pm
brian wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:23 pm
A_B wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm
I think History agrees there was a Jesus in much the way History agrees there was a Julius Caesar, no?
Not exactly, though it's possible. The historical data is unclear as might be expected considering if Jesus of Nazareth was an actual person, there were very few to almost none contemporaneous historical accounts of him from the time he lived, especially compared to an emperor like Julius Caesar (accounted for by the fact that exceedingly few people at the time were literate).
I got you. Not a perfect analog.That seems fair that an emperor would have better media coverage.
That word of mouth, about the nice guy who helped a guy up after he got knocked down, and cleaned up a bunch of dirt from his eyes and face that had temporarily blinded him, gets extrapolated as providing sight to a blind man...And the collective nice-guy acts of a bunch of people are word-of-mouth forwarded: from fantastic stories of human kindness into other-worldly acts.

Jesii was simply a collection of some really decent dudes.
Last edited by EnochRoot on Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:57 pm

I don't think people are inherently good or evil and can't be persuaded in another direction. I think they're all a product of their DNA and how their brain interprets their experiences and observations about reality. If someone joins a soup kitchen because they think Jesus magic'd a bunch of fish one time, that's helpful but they're still promoting ideas that are demonstrably false which is immoral and dangerous and exactly why we are where we are.

Jesus told people not to trust their instincts and surrender their critical faculties and that belief in him is the only path towards blissful immortality. This is wicked.
If J-Lo responds I'm guessing it will be some selected verses that don't sound too hot to the modern mind, but I'm closer to the mister d/brian camp.
One thing we do to make religious people feel comfortable is take all of the shitty things from the bible and blame it on misinterpretation or the corruption of man. How come we never do that with shit like "Do unto others" though? The book is either the divinely-authored word of god or it isn't. Yeah, I could totally cherry-pick things that Jesus said to make him look like Trump...but then I'm doing the same thing everyone else does to make him look like Gandhi. Maybe we need to recognize that this is all bullshit, stop trying to summon ancient wisdom to solve current-day problems, and just really grow the fuck up.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by mister d » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:17 pm

If I write a story about J-Lo of New England and have you a huge Patriots fan, that doesn't make you a huge Patriots fan, right? I think there's fair reason to separate "the person/parable" and "the bible as a whole".
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:22 pm

And the very reason that we're able to determine which things Jesus said that sound antiquated and immoral is because we don't get our morality from Jesus or the bible. In order to dissect and cherry pick the things we don't like, we're using a source of morality that has to be separate from them. If we can use that to filter out the bad things, we don't need it to recognize the good things. By giving away your moral impulses like that, we're helping to create an environment where people can use it to corrupt. We're offering protection for the charlatans that you think have perverted religion. If instead we chose to skeptically interrogate our own beliefs, the religious right would never even have a seat at the grown-ups table.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by mister d » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:34 pm

Nothing we're saying is different. Lets say someone was indoctrinated at a young age, even got married in the church before realizing it was super fucked up. Can they not carry on the positives while abandoning the negatives?
Steve of phpBB wrote:What are they going to do, though. Storm Congress? The Department of Justice building?

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:45 pm

"I'm super ambitious because Hitler, but everything else was fucked up."
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by mister d » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:46 pm

That's definitely a good analogy.
Steve of phpBB wrote:What are they going to do, though. Storm Congress? The Department of Justice building?

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:55 pm

Big Jesus guy too, that Hitler.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by mister d » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:59 pm

You'd think a guy who admittedly practices cognitive dissonance for little more than entertainment wouldn't be so absolutist here. Organized religion is bad. The bible is bad. The intent of those writing the bible was bad. The underlying principles towards others Jesus displayed or was given aren't bad. (And saying "well they could come from anywhere" doesn't change that they don't in millions of cases.)
Steve of phpBB wrote:What are they going to do, though. Storm Congress? The Department of Justice building?

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:08 pm

I'm sorry, but I just can't be as cynical as you when it comes to things like human empathy. I already explained that people use a moral compass outside of the bible to cherry pick the bible. That means they not only already recognize what is morally objectionable but also what is morally sufficient. The only reason after that to allow religion to take credit for your morality is the promise of reward or fear of punishment, which perverts it and creates an environment where there's something morally virtuous about believing lies. If you want to derive anything good from that, it's your prerogative, but you're part of the problem.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by The Sybian » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:18 pm

Jerloma wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:08 pm
I'm sorry, but I just can't be as cynical as you when it comes to things like human empathy. I already explained that people use a moral compass outside of the bible to cherry pick the bible. That means they not only already recognize what is morally objectionable but also what is morally sufficient. The only reason after that to allow religion to take credit for your morality is the promise of reward or fear of punishment, which perverts it and creates an environment where there's something morally virtuous about believing lies. If you want to derive anything good from that, it's your prerogative, but you're part of the problem.
I love this argument so much.
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by sancarlos » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:26 pm

A bit off the subject, but Reza Aslan's Zealot is an interesting, albeit imperfect, biography of Jesus, the man, (as opposed to Jesus the deity).
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by mister d » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:48 pm

Jerloma wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:08 pm
I already explained that people use a moral compass outside of the bible to cherry pick the bible. That means they not only already recognize what is morally objectionable but also what is morally sufficient.
Someone raised religious who grows to discard or reject certain aspects doesn't already recognize anything, it was all foundational. Don't we all pretty much agree storybook Jesus would hate modern catholicism? Its the same path; if you isolate the moral good, you're almost forced to reject most of the rest.
Steve of phpBB wrote:What are they going to do, though. Storm Congress? The Department of Justice building?

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by P.D.X. » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:58 pm

A_B wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm
I think History agrees there was a Jesus in much the way History agrees there was a Julius Caesar, no?
?

We literally have Caesar's memoirs.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by A_B » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:37 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:58 pm
A_B wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm
I think History agrees there was a Jesus in much the way History agrees there was a Julius Caesar, no?
?

We literally have Caesar's memoirs.

Or do we!?!?!!!
Yeah it was a bad comparison.
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Johnnie » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:41 am

mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Joe K » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:59 am



Rezendes is the reporter who initially broke open the Church abuse coverup scandal and almost 20 years later he’s still exposing the scope of the Church’s complicity.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by brian » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:06 am

If you're looking for the saddest, most depressing quotes from that story you can start at the final paragraph.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Johnnie » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:07 am

mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Joe K » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:52 am

If that’s really what the schism is about it makes me like Rodgers even more. Doesn’t sound like he’s even necessarily an atheist, as much as a guy trying to apply his own faith and spirituality outside of organized churches.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Giff » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:10 am

Joe K wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:52 am
If that’s really what the schism is about it makes me like Rodgers even more. Doesn’t sound like he’s even necessarily an atheist, as much as a guy trying to apply his own faith and spirituality outside of organized churches.
Yeah, fuck his family. I'm very much in that same boat as far as religion goes. I *had* to go to church. I rarely felt anything out of it that I was supposed to even if I do admit a fondness for some of the hymns we sang. I'm pretty much an atheist now, but my family are big believers. What Aaron Rodgers said seems to be very respectful (I didn't watch the interview) and I've said much worse things about religion that I know the believers in my family have seen, but still have not changed how they embrace me as part of the family (my past differences with my brother and sister aside).
Muh.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:09 pm

Joe K wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:52 am
If that’s really what the schism is about it makes me like Rodgers even more. Doesn’t sound like he’s even necessarily an atheist, as much as a guy trying to apply his own faith and spirituality outside of organized churches.
He's anti-religion so he definitely doesn't have faith. Faith is about submission...it's inherently religious. Spirituality has been become a meaningless word. A ton of atheists identify as spiritual. I think it's a way to make yourself sound deep or something...just a buzz word, but people seem to like it. Sometimes I'll say something mildly profound and people will be like, "See, you are spiritual! (mostly my therapist)" Like, you can call me that if you'd like but please know that I don't believe in magic.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:07 pm

Free forgiveness for corona virus victims!
The Catholic Church has today granted forgiveness - under certain conditions - for the sins of the faithful struck by coronavirus.

A decree published by the Vatican on Friday also covers healthcare workers and those who pray for their wellbeing.

Relatives who care for their sick family members may also be forgiven.

The conditions include the sick saying a certain number of prayers or following important celebrations from a distance.

Those who pray for the caregivers' wellbeing must also read the Bible 'for at least half an hour'.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by The Sybian » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:47 pm

Jerloma wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:07 pm
Free forgiveness for corona virus victims!
The Catholic Church has today granted forgiveness - under certain conditions - for the sins of the faithful struck by coronavirus.

A decree published by the Vatican on Friday also covers healthcare workers and those who pray for their wellbeing.

Relatives who care for their sick family members may also be forgiven.

The conditions include the sick saying a certain number of prayers or following important celebrations from a distance.

Those who pray for the caregivers' wellbeing must also read the Bible 'for at least half an hour'.
At least they are only requiring prayers and reading the Bible instead of donations. Progress!
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by sancarlos » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:36 pm

"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian

I never shoulda punched that horse. - AB

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by rass » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:45 pm

I felt aswirl with warm secretions.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Pruitt » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:50 pm

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by bfj » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:52 pm

rass wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:45 pm
I don’t get it. Little help.
Enjoy every sandwich.

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:33 am

Confirming the existence of a deity that you know almost for certain doesn't exist is like asking a 4 year old where there imaginary friend, George is today. Patronizing people who have the critical faculties to discern truth from reality but simply refuse to use them is far worse than just calling them out on their bullshit...





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And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by BSF21 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:47 am

So a friend of a friend's church here in IN received a small-business relief loan through one of the new CARES programs.

Remind me why churches are eligible for taking out of the small business pool? I'm not trying to debate the worthwhile missions vs the megachurch bullshit, but seriously. Is a church a business or a religious organization? If you don't pay taxes or report income, how can you benefit from those public pools?
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by A_B » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:51 am

A lot of the loans can only be used for rent, utilities and paychecks, which all of those places presumably still have. What they don't have is people coming to church, so i'd imagine offerings are down. And the employees pay taxes, right? I don't have a huge issue with it, but I also think that there should be taxes on the larger churches. Small churches don't really have an operating profit so it won't matter.
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by mister d » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:41 am

And the smaller ones that do run a profit would just pay out bonuses to partners at year end to avoid taxes anyway ; )
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by The Sybian » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:58 am

BSF21 wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:47 am
So a friend of a friend's church here in IN received a small-business relief loan through one of the new CARES programs.

Remind me why churches are eligible for taking out of the small business pool? I'm not trying to debate the worthwhile missions vs the megachurch bullshit, but seriously. Is a church a business or a religious organization? If you don't pay taxes or report income, how can you benefit from those public pools?
I think churches have to pay income tax on employees other than the minister or religious leader.
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by sancarlos » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:14 am

The Sybian wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:58 am
I think churches have to pay income tax on employees other than the minister or religious leader.
I think you mean employment taxes.
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by The Sybian » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:31 pm

sancarlos wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:14 am
The Sybian wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:58 am
I think churches have to pay income tax on employees other than the minister or religious leader.
I think you mean employment taxes.
Yes. Yes I did.
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Jerloma » Wed May 13, 2020 11:13 am

Yeah, I could totally cherry-pick things that Jesus said to make him look like Trump...but then I'm doing the same thing everyone else does to make him look like Gandhi. Maybe we need to recognize that this is all bullshit, stop trying to summon ancient wisdom to solve current-day problems, and just really grow the fuck up.
Alright, I did it.

Let's see Jesus told us to love our enemy. Trump seems to be doing a wonderful job following this example with Putin, Kim, Salman, etc.

How about immigration?
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Calling foreigners dogs...Trump seems to have grasped those Xian values.

What else is Trump good at? Stealing from the poor?
As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples, saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. If anyone asks you, 'Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.' "
Acting like a petulant child?
On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.
Destroying the environment?
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
Hate?
Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.
Lying?
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Threatening people?
"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Yes, this is cherry-picking but so is pulling verses that make him seem like the opposite of Trump. If you're going to allow that instead of accepting the book at face value, you don't get to tell other people they shouldn't do he same.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God

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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Pruitt » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:03 pm

‘I find it baffling and reprehensible’: Catholic Archbishop of Washington slams Trump’s visit to John Paul II shrine
“Saint Pope John Paul II was an ardent defender of the rights and dignity of human beings. His legacy bears vivid witness to that truth," Gregory said. "He certainly would not condone the use of tear gas and other deterrents to silence, scatter or intimidate them for a photo opportunity in front of a place of worship and peace.”
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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Pruitt » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:51 pm

"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."


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Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity

Post by Pruitt » Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:01 pm

I never touched the guy.
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