The Swamp

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:32 pm

brian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:23 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm I think History agrees there was a Jesus in much the way History agrees there was a Julius Caesar, no?

Not exactly, though it's possible. The historical data is unclear as might be expected considering if Jesus of Nazareth was an actual person, there were very few to almost none contemporaneous historical accounts of him from the time he lived, especially compared to an emperor like Julius Caesar (accounted for by the fact that exceedingly few people at the time were literate).

I got you. Not a perfect analog.That seems fair that an emperor would have better media coverage.

That word of mouth, about the nice guy who helped a guy up after he got knocked down, and cleaned up a bunch of dirt from his eyes and face that had temporarily blinded him, gets extrapolated as providing sight to a blind man...And the collective nice-guy acts of a bunch of people are word-of-mouth forwarded: from fantastic stories of human kindness into other-worldly acts.

Jesii was simply a collection of some really decent dudes.

I don't think people are inherently good or evil and can't be persuaded in another direction. I think they're all a product of their DNA and how their brain interprets their experiences and observations about reality. If someone joins a soup kitchen because they think Jesus magic'd a bunch of fish one time, that's helpful but they're still promoting ideas that are demonstrably false which is immoral and dangerous and exactly why we are where we are.

Jesus told people not to trust their instincts and surrender their critical faculties and that belief in him is the only path towards blissful immortality. This is wicked.

If J-Lo responds I'm guessing it will be some selected verses that don't sound too hot to the modern mind, but I'm closer to the mister d/brian camp.

One thing we do to make religious people feel comfortable is take all of the shitty things from the bible and blame it on misinterpretation or the corruption of man. How come we never do that with shit like "Do unto others" though? The book is either the divinely-authored word of god or it isn't. Yeah, I could totally cherry-pick things that Jesus said to make him look like Trump...but then I'm doing the same thing everyone else does to make him look like Gandhi. Maybe we need to recognize that this is all bullshit, stop trying to summon ancient wisdom to solve current-day problems, and just really grow the fuck up.

If I write a story about J-Lo of New England and have you a huge Patriots fan, that doesn't make you a huge Patriots fan, right? I think there's fair reason to separate "the person/parable" and "the bible as a whole".

And the very reason that we're able to determine which things Jesus said that sound antiquated and immoral is because we don't get our morality from Jesus or the bible. In order to dissect and cherry pick the things we don't like, we're using a source of morality that has to be separate from them. If we can use that to filter out the bad things, we don't need it to recognize the good things. By giving away your moral impulses like that, we're helping to create an environment where people can use it to corrupt. We're offering protection for the charlatans that you think have perverted religion. If instead we chose to skeptically interrogate our own beliefs, the religious right would never even have a seat at the grown-ups table.

Nothing we're saying is different. Lets say someone was indoctrinated at a young age, even got married in the church before realizing it was super fucked up. Can they not carry on the positives while abandoning the negatives?

"I'm super ambitious because Hitler, but everything else was fucked up."

That's definitely a good analogy.

Big Jesus guy too, that Hitler.

You'd think a guy who admittedly practices cognitive dissonance for little more than entertainment wouldn't be so absolutist here. Organized religion is bad. The bible is bad. The intent of those writing the bible was bad. The underlying principles towards others Jesus displayed or was given aren't bad. (And saying "well they could come from anywhere" doesn't change that they don't in millions of cases.)

I'm sorry, but I just can't be as cynical as you when it comes to things like human empathy. I already explained that people use a moral compass outside of the bible to cherry pick the bible. That means they not only already recognize what is morally objectionable but also what is morally sufficient. The only reason after that to allow religion to take credit for your morality is the promise of reward or fear of punishment, which perverts it and creates an environment where there's something morally virtuous about believing lies. If you want to derive anything good from that, it's your prerogative, but you're part of the problem.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:08 pm I'm sorry, but I just can't be as cynical as you when it comes to things like human empathy. I already explained that people use a moral compass outside of the bible to cherry pick the bible. That means they not only already recognize what is morally objectionable but also what is morally sufficient. The only reason after that to allow religion to take credit for your morality is the promise of reward or fear of punishment, which perverts it and creates an environment where there's something morally virtuous about believing lies. If you want to derive anything good from that, it's your prerogative, but you're part of the problem.

I love this argument so much.

A bit off the subject, but Reza Aslan's Zealot is an interesting, albeit imperfect, biography of Jesus, the man, (as opposed to Jesus the deity).

Jerloma wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:08 pmI already explained that people use a moral compass outside of the bible to cherry pick the bible. That means they not only already recognize what is morally objectionable but also what is morally sufficient.

Someone raised religious who grows to discard or reject certain aspects doesn't already recognize anything, it was all foundational. Don't we all pretty much agree storybook Jesus would hate modern catholicism? Its the same path; if you isolate the moral good, you're almost forced to reject most of the rest.

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm I think History agrees there was a Jesus in much the way History agrees there was a Julius Caesar, no?

?

We literally have Caesar's memoirs.

P.D.X. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:58 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:19 pm I think History agrees there was a Jesus in much the way History agrees there was a Julius Caesar, no?

?

We literally have Caesar's memoirs.

Or do we!?!?!!!
Yeah it was a bad comparison.

Rezendes is the reporter who initially broke open the Church abuse coverup scandal and almost 20 years later he’s still exposing the scope of the Church’s complicity.

If you're looking for the saddest, most depressing quotes from that story you can start at the final paragraph.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:07 am Aaron Rodgers family is pearl clutching because he's probably an atheist.

If that’s really what the schism is about it makes me like Rodgers even more. Doesn’t sound like he’s even necessarily an atheist, as much as a guy trying to apply his own faith and spirituality outside of organized churches.

Joe K wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:52 am

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:07 am Aaron Rodgers family is pearl clutching because he's probably an atheist.

If that’s really what the schism is about it makes me like Rodgers even more. Doesn’t sound like he’s even necessarily an atheist, as much as a guy trying to apply his own faith and spirituality outside of organized churches.

Yeah, fuck his family. I'm very much in that same boat as far as religion goes. I *had* to go to church. I rarely felt anything out of it that I was supposed to even if I do admit a fondness for some of the hymns we sang. I'm pretty much an atheist now, but my family are big believers. What Aaron Rodgers said seems to be very respectful (I didn't watch the interview) and I've said much worse things about religion that I know the believers in my family have seen, but still have not changed how they embrace me as part of the family (my past differences with my brother and sister aside).

Joe K wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:52 am

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:07 am Aaron Rodgers family is pearl clutching because he's probably an atheist.

If that’s really what the schism is about it makes me like Rodgers even more. Doesn’t sound like he’s even necessarily an atheist, as much as a guy trying to apply his own faith and spirituality outside of organized churches.

He's anti-religion so he definitely doesn't have faith. Faith is about submission...it's inherently religious. Spirituality has been become a meaningless word. A ton of atheists identify as spiritual. I think it's a way to make yourself sound deep or something...just a buzz word, but people seem to like it. Sometimes I'll say something mildly profound and people will be like, "See, you are spiritual! (mostly my therapist)" Like, you can call me that if you'd like but please know that I don't believe in magic.

Free forgiveness for corona virus victims!

The Catholic Church has today granted forgiveness - under certain conditions - for the sins of the faithful struck by coronavirus.

A decree published by the Vatican on Friday also covers healthcare workers and those who pray for their wellbeing.

Relatives who care for their sick family members may also be forgiven.

The conditions include the sick saying a certain number of prayers or following important celebrations from a distance.

Those who pray for the caregivers' wellbeing must also read the Bible 'for at least half an hour'.

Jerloma wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:07 pm Free forgiveness for corona virus victims!

The Catholic Church has today granted forgiveness - under certain conditions - for the sins of the faithful struck by coronavirus.

A decree published by the Vatican on Friday also covers healthcare workers and those who pray for their wellbeing.

Relatives who care for their sick family members may also be forgiven.

The conditions include the sick saying a certain number of prayers or following important celebrations from a distance.

Those who pray for the caregivers' wellbeing must also read the Bible 'for at least half an hour'.

At least they are only requiring prayers and reading the Bible instead of donations. Progress!

rass wrote: ↑Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:45 pm

I don’t get it. Little help.

Confirming the existence of a deity that you know almost for certain doesn't exist is like asking a 4 year old where there imaginary friend, George is today. Patronizing people who have the critical faculties to discern truth from reality but simply refuse to use them is far worse than just calling them out on their bullshit...





...Brian.

So a friend of a friend's church here in IN received a small-business relief loan through one of the new CARES programs.

Remind me why churches are eligible for taking out of the small business pool? I'm not trying to debate the worthwhile missions vs the megachurch bullshit, but seriously. Is a church a business or a religious organization? If you don't pay taxes or report income, how can you benefit from those public pools?

A lot of the loans can only be used for rent, utilities and paychecks, which all of those places presumably still have. What they don't have is people coming to church, so i'd imagine offerings are down. And the employees pay taxes, right? I don't have a huge issue with it, but I also think that there should be taxes on the larger churches. Small churches don't really have an operating profit so it won't matter.

And the smaller ones that do run a profit would just pay out bonuses to partners at year end to avoid taxes anyway ; )

BSF21 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:47 am So a friend of a friend's church here in IN received a small-business relief loan through one of the new CARES programs.

Remind me why churches are eligible for taking out of the small business pool? I'm not trying to debate the worthwhile missions vs the megachurch bullshit, but seriously. Is a church a business or a religious organization? If you don't pay taxes or report income, how can you benefit from those public pools?

I think churches have to pay income tax on employees other than the minister or religious leader.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:58 am I think churches have to pay income tax on employees other than the minister or religious leader.

I think you mean employment taxes.

sancarlos wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:14 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:58 am I think churches have to pay income tax on employees other than the minister or religious leader.

I think you mean employment taxes.

Yes. Yes I did.

Yeah, I could totally cherry-pick things that Jesus said to make him look like Trump...but then I'm doing the same thing everyone else does to make him look like Gandhi. Maybe we need to recognize that this is all bullshit, stop trying to summon ancient wisdom to solve current-day problems, and just really grow the fuck up.

Alright, I did it.

Let's see Jesus told us to love our enemy. Trump seems to be doing a wonderful job following this example with Putin, Kim, Salman, etc.

How about immigration?

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

Calling foreigners dogs...Trump seems to have grasped those Xian values.

What else is Trump good at? Stealing from the poor?

As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples, saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. If anyone asks you, 'Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.' "

Acting like a petulant child?

On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

Destroying the environment?

The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

Hate?

Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

Lying?

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Threatening people?

"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Yes, this is cherry-picking but so is pulling verses that make him seem like the opposite of Trump. If you're going to allow that instead of accepting the book at face value, you don't get to tell other people they shouldn't do he same.

‘I find it baffling and reprehensible’: Catholic Archbishop of Washington slams Trump’s visit to John Paul II shrine

“Saint Pope John Paul II was an ardent defender of the rights and dignity of human beings. His legacy bears vivid witness to that truth," Gregory said. "He certainly would not condone the use of tear gas and other deterrents to silence, scatter or intimidate them for a photo opportunity in front of a place of worship and peace.”

Pruitt wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:51 pm Giancarlo Granda says his sexual relationship with the Falwells began when he was 20. He says he had sex with Becki Falwell while Jerry Falwell Jr, head of Liberty University and a staunch supporter of President Trump, looked on.

And also with you

I never touched the guy.