What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Johnnie wrote:Thanks, Lee Greenwood.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Shirley »

Johnnie wrote:I get what this article is trying to say, I really do, but where would a hypothetical scenario stop? $800 isn't enough, so $1,000?Then more and more if no one bites?

If everyone collectively said no, then the plane isn't flying. And if precedent is set that everyone can band together to disrupt travel, then that would be bad. Because let's be real, everybody is always looking to fuck over someone every time. You give anyone an in like that an someone is going to take it.

Just look at how sue happy America is. Someone is going to be entitled enough to believe that their boarding pass might be a lottery ticket. I don't want to side with a corporation there, but when does it stop?
First of all, basic economic says there's a price they could pay to get those four seats if they wanted them. Keep raising the price and someone will go. Find that it's higher than they wanted to spend. Lesson learned - do it BEFORE people get on the plane next time. People will be a hell of a lot more willing to take another flight if they haven't already plopped down in the seat.

Second, why on earth would the plane not fly if everyone said no? The plane's full of people in the seats they paid for. It can go. There's no rule that you have to get stand-by passengers on the plane.

Third, do you really consider it "entitled" to assume that when you pay for a plane ticket, get assigned a specific seat, check-in to that flight, and then actually board that flight and sit in the seat that you actually get to stay there and take the flight? That's entitlement? No, that's fulfilling a contract.

I get that United really wanted to get a crew to Louisville for a flight the next day (I assume). That is not the problem of anyone on the flight from Chicago to Louisville. United had a lot of other ways to get a crew to Louisville (a later flight, another airline, rent a car, move a crew from another city, etc.). They just didn't want to.

They deserve every bit of bad press and economic hardship that's coming their way for this.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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"American standard of entitlement".

You know, it might be a good time to pare back funding to the NLRB as well as the FTC's efforts to promote consumer protectionism. Because this shit's getting out of hand.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Lee Greenwoods, all of you
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Joe K »

EnochRoot wrote:"American standard of entitlement".

You know, it might be a good time to pare back funding to the NLRB as well as the FTC's efforts to promote consumer protectionism. Because this shit's getting out of hand.
This opinion isn't particular to the United story but it's interesting to me that there's a perception that it's everyday Americans who are growing increasingly "entitled" and "litigious" when so many recent legal shifts have so clearly favored big corporate defendants over individual plaintiffs. The trends towards disfavoring class actions and pushing cases towards arbitration are just two examples of this. The Chamber of Commerce must be doing a good job with its media campaigns if people still think we have an overly litigious and entitled citizenry.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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You can thank a large part of that shift to those lobbying for tort reform and denigrating people like the woman who had life altering injuries from a scalding cup of McD's coffee.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Nonlinear FC wrote:You can thank a large part of that shift to those lobbying for tort reform and denigrating people like the woman who had life altering injuries from a scalding cup of McD's coffee.
That case is actually really interesting to look at because as I understand it, all the woman did was sue for the injuries sustained and then the judge ordered McD's to pay a ton of money in "damages" as "punishment" for negligent actions. So the woman ends up as the one in the story who "Sued McD's for millions because of hot coffee" when that isn't actually what happened.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Nonlinear FC »

BSF21 wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:You can thank a large part of that shift to those lobbying for tort reform and denigrating people like the woman who had life altering injuries from a scalding cup of McD's coffee.
That case is actually really interesting to look at because as I understand it, all the woman did was sue for the injuries sustained and then the judge ordered McD's to pay a ton of money in "damages" as "punishment" for negligent actions. So the woman ends up as the one in the story who "Sued McD's for millions because of hot coffee" when that isn't actually what happened.
Absolutely.

There are a ton of misconceptions about that story, but the biggest trope to come of it is that it was used by many as a prime example of our overly litigious society and frivolous lawsuits were/are getting out of control.

http://www.hotcoffeethemovie.com/Default.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_%28film%29

Great documentary.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Johnnie »

Or you people can take my argument in context with my having lived outside of America for 4 years and realize I'm talking about the "ugly American" stereotype and how Americans, at large, give a shit about themselves first and the greater good for everyone else never. (Which exists at all levels, like I already said.) Plus, my literal day-to-day military job is putting deployers on allocated airlift to get them into theater. And they think because of my rank being too low or theirs being too high that I don't know what I'm doing or they can do their own thing to get there.

I'm not siding with United on the way they handled this. But I am siding with if you have to get bumped for whatever reason because that's the risk you take when you fly, I'm not going to adamantly refuse to leave so that it escalates to being violently removed from my seat. I've been bumped before and I've been at risk to be bumped numerous times thereafter. Each time sucks, but I know not to cause a scene in an airport because it's federal property.

Sure it's easy to say "keep upping voucher credit until I feel I've been compensated" when no one is biting, but at what point does it take to see that one man's staunch refusal to leave puts that plane plus a plane in the disembarking city at risk of being cancelled? This one guy, in that sense specifically, is being extremely entitled.

To the greater scenario in an ideal sense, United shouldn't pack the cattle car to the gills. An amount of seats should be there "in case shit happens" - like a last second crew needing to board to facilitate travel for others. And if more than that amount is needed, it should be outlined conspicuously everywhere that your seat may be taken from you at just compensation. Whatever that threshold is, hopefully it's figured out by a governing entity and instituted and agreed to by all airlines.

But nah. I've written a bunch of words discussing this. Take a single line out of context and respond to that.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Giff »

I have no idea if this is true, but interesting post from another message board I visit:
Lawyer here. This myth that passengers don't have rights needs to go away, ASAP. You are dead wrong when saying that United legally kicked him off the plane.

First of all, it's airline spin to call this an overbooking. The statutory provision granting them the ability to deny boarding is about "OVERSALES", specifically defines as booking more reserved confirmed seats than there are available. This is not what happened. They did not overbook the flight; they had a fully booked flight, and not only did everyone already have a reserved confirmed seat, they were all sitting in them. The law allowing them to denying boarding in the event of an oversale does not apply.

Even if it did apply, the law is unambiguously clear that airlines have to give preference to everyone with reserved confirmed seats when choosing to involuntarily deny boarding. They have to always choose the solution that will affect the least amount of reserved confirmed seats. This rule is straightforward, and United makes very clear in their own contract of carriage that employees of their own or of other carriers may be denied boarding without compensation because they do not have reserved confirmed seats. On its face, it's clear that what they did was illegal-- they gave preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, in violation of 14 CFR 250.2a.

Furthermore, even if you try and twist this into a legal application of 250.2a and say that United had the right to deny him boarding in the event of an overbooking; they did NOT have the right to kick him off the plane. Their contract of carriage highlights there is a complete difference in rights after you've boarded and sat on the plane, and Rule 21 goes over the specific scenarios where you could get kicked off. NONE of them apply here. He did absolutely nothing wrong and shouldn't have been targeted. He's going to leave with a hefty settlement after this fiasco.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Johnnie »

Nonlinear FC wrote:
BSF21 wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:You can thank a large part of that shift to those lobbying for tort reform and denigrating people like the woman who had life altering injuries from a scalding cup of McD's coffee.
That case is actually really interesting to look at because as I understand it, all the woman did was sue for the injuries sustained and then the judge ordered McD's to pay a ton of money in "damages" as "punishment" for negligent actions. So the woman ends up as the one in the story who "Sued McD's for millions because of hot coffee" when that isn't actually what happened.
Absolutely.

There are a ton of misconceptions about that story, but the biggest trope to come of it is that it was used by many as a prime example of our overly litigious society and frivolous lawsuits were/are getting out of control.

http://www.hotcoffeethemovie.com/Default.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_%28film%29

Great documentary.
Funny that's mentioned. During Ragnar Las Vegas way back in 2010, Steve and I were discussing lawyer type things and he appropriately informed me that what I knew about that case was bullshit. Frivolous lawsuits happen, but that wasn't one of them.

This is good too:

https://youtu.be/KNWh6Kw3ejQ

Edit, here's the documentary in full (It takes place in Albuquerque, oddly enough):

https://youtu.be/LI-OLa8iNOk
Last edited by Johnnie on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by BSF21 »

Silly question here, but I keep seeing references to "denial of boarding". Motherfuckers were already on the plane. Boarded as it were. As someone mentioned upthread, people are far more likely to take that $$$ when they aren't on the plane. So at a basic level, any of the arguments about "denial of boarding" are null, because everyone had already boarded the goddamn flight.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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The good doctor is a WSOP regular.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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I know better than to play armchair lawyer when there is a heavily regulated business involved, but the one thing that rings true to me is that the situation is different when you have let someone through the gate and on to the plane. Even if there isn't a regulatory violation there, it makes no business sense to grab a person off a plane for any reason other than a legitimate emergency/law enforcement situation.

The technology is there to sort out the booking issue in real time before everyone is on board. So why not inform the unlucky people at the gate as soon as you know that there is a problem? If you do that, say, 45 minutes before boarding, there is still a chance that the problem will go away. And it is a lot less likely that anyone will put up a fuss, and if they do, you are in a better position to deal with it quietly.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Look at Lee Greenwood ranting for 5 paragraphs in here.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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A_B wrote:The good doctor is a WSOP regular.
The Louisville Courier-Journal noted in one of its articles that he lost his medical license from 2005-2015 due to felony convictions for writing fraudulent prescriptions for controlled substances. He also got convicted for trading money and prescriptions for sex from a patient. So maybe the poker was more than just recreation for him if he couldn't get work elsewhere.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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So we're officially "dig into the victim to see why its kinda his fault" stage?
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Joe K wrote:
EnochRoot wrote:"American standard of entitlement".

You know, it might be a good time to pare back funding to the NLRB as well as the FTC's efforts to promote consumer protectionism. Because this shit's getting out of hand.
This opinion isn't particular to the United story but it's interesting to me that there's a perception that it's everyday Americans who are growing increasingly "entitled" and "litigious" when so many recent legal shifts have so clearly favored big corporate defendants over individual plaintiffs. The trends towards disfavoring class actions and pushing cases towards arbitration are just two examples of this. The Chamber of Commerce must be doing a good job with its media campaigns if people still think we have an overly litigious and entitled citizenry.
The Right has done an amazing job of pushing a pro-business/pro-wealthy mindset over the last 40 years. Half of Americans and a majority of the working class who are most hurt by the policies, have bought into the idea that worker and consumer protections are evils that kill businesses and prevent job creation. The fact that the US is one of two countries in the entire world, along with Papua New Guinea, that does not require employers to provide paid maternity leave is insane. That should be a basic human right. How have the working class been duped into fighting against paid vacation time, medical leave, paid sick leave... The argument is usually, "my brother-in-law owns a business and regulations are killing him!" Never any specifics. Not to mention, most businesses fail or barely scrape by. We can't all be successful business owners. Maybe the reason your business failed and your competitor succeeded was some factor other than intrusive government regulations. I'm all for eliminating regulations that don't make sense or cause more of a burden than they are worth, but FFS, if the entire world can manage paid maternity leave, I think the US economy should be able to overcome. China and North Korea require paid maternity leave FFS!

And to get back on point, the same goes for corporate lawsuits. The media sensationalizes the woman who won a judgment for several million against McDonalds for burning her leg with spilled coffee, and people go nuts, angry that some woman won the lottery because she was dumb enough to spill coffee on herself. I do think part of it is jealousy at someone else getting rich, yet our culture praises people merely for being rich. How many people thought or still think Trump would be a good President because he is rich? Maybe it is the perception of earning wealth versus undeservedly acquiring wealth through a lawsuit. Whatever. Not many people are aware of the hundreds of lawsuits McDonalds lost because their coffee was sold at dangerously high temperatures, and there were numerous court orders requiring McD's to serve coffee at a lower temperature, but they refused to obey, as it was cheaper to keep their current equipment/procedures. Corporations will do what is financially best. Without punitive damages in courts, there is no incentive for corporations to avoid harmful actions if it is cheaper to create harm than pay the penalty.


ETA: Damn, I take an 90 minute break mid-post to do some work, and an entire McD's coffee discussion came and went.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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mister d wrote:So we're officially "dig into the victim to see why its kinda his fault" stage?
While I agree with your sentiment, in this case, I have a feeling there is more to the story, and United can't say much due to the high likelihood of a legal claim. From the brief video clips, there doesn't seem any acceptable explanation for the actions, but the real story rarely gets portrayed in these sensational media stories.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Change a few words around and this is like every black dude killed by cops justification, right?
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Rex »

Well it seems pretty obvious that the passenger involved in an altercation like this is not likely to be June Cleaver. Even if she does speak jive.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by degenerasian »

Johnnie wrote:
To the greater scenario in an ideal sense, United shouldn't pack the cattle car to the gills. An amount of seats should be there "in case shit happens" - like a last second crew needing to board to facilitate travel for others. And if more than that amount is needed, it should be outlined conspicuously everywhere that your seat may be taken from you at just compensation. Whatever that threshold is, hopefully it's figured out by a governing entity and instituted and agreed to by all airlines.

But nah. I've written a bunch of words discussing this. Take a single line out of context and respond to that.
ok!

in your scenario a plane can only sell 195 out of 200 in case shit happens. Then on average there are 2 or 3 no shows per flight (i made that up). So in the end the airline will have to increase ticket prices to compensate for the lost seats. People get United Airline flights for cheap, they won't like it when costs go up as this story gets forgotten by Friday.

And i think it already is outlined conspicuously that your seat may be taken at just compensation ($800). The manager just can't make it up and offer more. There were no volunteers on this flight (out of thousands of flights) so they had to randomize.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Not to be "that guy," but I was blaming the victim before this thread thought it was cool!

Seriously, the reason this shit doesn't happen very often is that the vast majority of people just take the shit sandwich and post about it on Twitter or Facebook. They don't get to the point where the police are called. And when the police are called, they stand up and make some fight the man comments (knowing they are going to go viral) and GTFO the plane.

Not excusing United. They deserve the shitty press, mainly for what a number of you have pointed out: Once you SEAT PEOPLE, you (United) get to eat the shit sandwich and move on.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Look, they're a goddamn airline, they can offer more than $800 if needed.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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I wasn't blaming, I was just bringing a "sports" angle to the discussion.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/video- ... ed-flight/

Officer involved put on leave.

That's the other piece of this. Police obviously bear some responsibility here.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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CNBC reporting United stock taking a nosedive, particularly after CEO opens his mouth..
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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Degen, if you went to a hotel or a restaurant and got told the reservation you booked two months ago had been cancelled because they had less no-shows than usual, would you just take it because "hey, they want to ensure a full house"? Most people would be pretty f'ing pissed, and that ignores (1) you haven't even paid yet and (2) its far easier to just get another hotel room and dinner than flight. Its really weird to see both the practice and the event itself get excused on any level because its become common and you would have allowed yourself to get fucked.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

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P.D.X. wrote:Look, they're a goddamn airline, they can offer more than $800 if needed.
Right, and its not even really $800 unless its used for an $800 seat on an otherwise sold out flight. I'm sure the real "cost" to United averages out to a fraction of that.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Johnnie »

degenerasian wrote:
Johnnie wrote:
To the greater scenario in an ideal sense, United shouldn't pack the cattle car to the gills. An amount of seats should be there "in case shit happens" - like a last second crew needing to board to facilitate travel for others. And if more than that amount is needed, it should be outlined conspicuously everywhere that your seat may be taken from you at just compensation. Whatever that threshold is, hopefully it's figured out by a governing entity and instituted and agreed to by all airlines.

But nah. I've written a bunch of words discussing this. Take a single line out of context and respond to that.
ok!

in your scenario a plane can only sell 195 out of 200 in case shit happens. Then on average there are 2 or 3 no shows per flight (i made that up). So in the end the airline will have to increase ticket prices to compensate for the lost seats. People get United Airline flights for cheap, they won't like it when costs go up as this story gets forgotten by Friday.

And i think it already is outlined conspicuously that your seat may be taken at just compensation ($800). The manager just can't make it up and offer more. There were no volunteers on this flight (out of thousands of flights) so they had to randomize.
Which speaks to the crux of all of this:

Consumers want perfect service for the lowest possible prices and never be inconvenienced for any reason ever. In no form or fashion should they ever find a dip in their standards if the situation arises where the service provider needs to inconvenience them for any reason, large or small.

So, it's either a cold system which randomizes which people are inconvenienced when the best interests of the airlines exceeds the best interests of the customers or a bump in airline charge to pre-mitigate any potential change so that a situation is less likely to happen again.

Is there a surefire way to fix this? I'm talking a way where both sides agree that in the event of something bad happening and a person needs to be inconvenienced that person is given just compensation. That's where we're at with this.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by degenerasian »

mister d wrote:Degen, if you went to a hotel or a restaurant and got told the reservation you booked two months ago had been cancelled because they had less no-shows than usual, would you just take it because "hey, they want to ensure a full house"? Most people would be pretty f'ing pissed, and that ignores (1) you haven't even paid yet and (2) its far easier to just get another hotel room and dinner than flight. Its really weird to see both the practice and the event itself get excused on any level because its become common and you would have allowed yourself to get fucked.
Sure I'd be upset but I'd have to move on. On the restaurant and hotel side they have many more no-shows then airlines to (due to lesser prices and having not paid yet). I've worked in the restaurant industry and the number of people who make a reservation and don't show up without a phone call is astounding. Even worse when the weather suddenly turns bad. Whenever someone did call to cancel we were very grateful "Thanks so much for calling to cancel, most people don't!"

It's shitty but the world is not 100% perfect. It's run by people who are not 100% perfect. And it's usually not the fault of the person delivering the message to you. Their hands are tied too. Capitalism is a give and take system. Sometimes it works to your advantage, sometimes it does not. One guy decided to get mad and it goes viral trumping the other 40000 people who got bumped during the year.

The airline writes in the contract you may get bumped. Have to accept it.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by DaveInSeattle »

mister d wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:Look, they're a goddamn airline, they can offer more than $800 if needed.
Right, and its not even really $800 unless its used for an $800 seat on an otherwise sold out flight. I'm sure the real "cost" to United averages out to a fraction of that.
I've never gotten bumped, or got one of those vouchers, but I have to assume that they are heavily laden with restrictions as to when you can use them, destinations that they can be used with, etc.

Has anyone ever got one of those vouchers? Am I correct, or just making things up again?
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Rex »

The airline should be experts at how to convey bad news to people, part of which is drawing lines that prevent your rank and file employees from being put in that situation.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Shirley »

degenerasian wrote:There were no volunteers on this flight (out of thousands of flights) so they had to randomize.
They didn't HAVE to do shit. The company made a deliberate decision to remove a paying customer from his seat so they could move their employees around. HAD had nothing to do with it.
Totally Kafkaesque
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degenerasian
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by degenerasian »

DaveInSeattle wrote:
mister d wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:Look, they're a goddamn airline, they can offer more than $800 if needed.
Right, and its not even really $800 unless its used for an $800 seat on an otherwise sold out flight. I'm sure the real "cost" to United averages out to a fraction of that.
I've never gotten bumped, or got one of those vouchers, but I have to assume that they are heavily laden with restrictions as to when you can use them, destinations that they can be used with, etc.

Has anyone ever got one of those vouchers? Am I correct, or just making things up again?

i once was bumped coming home from montreal and got elevated to first class 4 hours later plus a $150 voucher that had to be used within 1 year and only in Canada.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Nonlinear FC »

DaveInSeattle wrote:
mister d wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:Look, they're a goddamn airline, they can offer more than $800 if needed.
Right, and its not even really $800 unless its used for an $800 seat on an otherwise sold out flight. I'm sure the real "cost" to United averages out to a fraction of that.
I've never gotten bumped, or got one of those vouchers, but I have to assume that they are heavily laden with restrictions as to when you can use them, destinations that they can be used with, etc.

Has anyone ever got one of those vouchers? Am I correct, or just making things up again?

I think it varies. Sometimes you can get straight cash, sometimes it's unrestricted, sometimes there are blackout dates.

It's definitely not 100 percent a screw job, because too many savvy travelers know the "bump" game and ask the right questions before agreeing to volunteer.

But I would be really curious what, exactly, they were offering here. Because if it was all restricted and bullshitty...
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Giff »

Could you imagine being in your hotel room when the hotel decided they needed your room for someone else?
What about in the middle of an appetizer and the restaurant says they need your table for someone else?
What about in the middle of a happy ending and the masseuse tells you someone with a bigger dick is there?

Unacceptable in nearly every other business.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by Sabo »

Giff wrote:Could you imagine being in your hotel room when the hotel decided they needed your room for someone else?
Marriott already does this for its Platinum members. If you're a platinum member and need a room at a full hotel, you can ask the hotel to kick someone out so you can get a room. They only permit you to do this once, though. I know someone who had to exercise this option for someone he was interviewing for a job.

As you might expect, Marriott doesn't advertise this "feature" very much.
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Re: What the fuck is wrong with people (thread)

Post by P.D.X. »

Giff wrote:Could you imagine being in your hotel room when the hotel decided they needed your room for someone else?
What about in the middle of an appetizer and the restaurant says they need your table for someone else?
What about in the middle of a happy ending and the masseuse tells you someone with a bigger dick is there?
Totally cool as long as you could lose your entitled consumer attitude and handle a little inconvenience.
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