Mandalay Bay Shooting

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:58 am

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

Thanks, Onion.

Rams Fanny · Post by **Rams Fanny** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:11 pm

I wasn't at show but was in the area an hour and a half before shooting. My two oldest were offered tickets to the show but decided they were too tired. For once I'm not upset they ran themselves ragged over the weekend. Their friends made it out and I'm sure we'll get their stories relayed to us at the dinner table tonight.

I'm perplexed by this use of the term 'modern US history' wrt the murder numbers. Are we counting the Civil war as a series of mass shootings? It of course doesn't matter, I just find it odd.

I think most of you have been here before but in case you are unfamiliar with the area, there are excellent maps and graphics in this article

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:22 pm

Rams Fanny wrote:I wasn't at show but was in the area an hour and a half before shooting. My two oldest were offered tickets to the show but decided they were too tired. For once I'm not upset they ran themselves ragged over the weekend. Their friends made it out and I'm sure we'll get their stories relayed to us at the dinner table tonight.

I'm perplexed by this use of the term 'modern US history' wrt the murder numbers. Are we counting the Civil war as a series of mass shootings? It of course doesn't matter, I just find it odd.

I think most of you have been here before but in case you are unfamiliar with the area, there are excellent maps and graphics in this article

The thing I read online this morning about "modern US history" mentioned mass killings of African Americans about 100 years ago that would outnumber this. Not sure if they multiplied by 3/5 or not.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:42 pm

Charley Pierce Sums It Up

A feeling of anguished helplessness.

We hear serious arguments about all the other parts of the Bill of Rights: that the First Amendment has limits on what T-shirts high-school students (“Bong Hits 4 Jesus!”) can wear; that the Fourth Amendment has limits that allow wiretaps without warrants; that the Fifth Amendment has limits that allow drug-testing without cause; that the Sixth Amendment has limits that allows the states to poison convicts to death. But only with the Second Amendment do we hear the argument that the only tolerable limit on its exercise is that there are no limits. Only with the Second Amendment do we hear that the price of freedom is the occasional Stephen Paddock, locked away in his own madness on the 32nd floor of a luxury hotel and casino, deciding coolly whose brains he will blow out next a few blocks away in the 273rd such unfortunate exercise of Second Amendment rights this year.

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:58 pm

govmentchedda wrote:Not sure if they multiplied by 3/5 or not.

ain't letting that one go unacknowledged.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:06 pm

This tweet thread hits the nail on the head:

https://twitter.com/JamilahLemieux/stat ... 8758766592

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:48 pm

Johnnie wrote:This tweet thread hits the nail on the head:

https://twitter.com/JamilahLemieux/stat ... 8758766592

the entire sequence

teeteebee · Post by **teeteebee** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:30 pm

So I'm in Akron (Fairlawn to be exact) on business. One of my last my business trips (actually my last domestic trip) was to Downers Grove, Illinois. Stayed in a hotel just across the street from a mall. Just like right now. I flew in last night and I am staying at a hotel across from a mall.

That last time, I went to see Ted. It was like the 9:30 show. I had just had a nice steak at the Capital Grille, watching the White Sox play on TV. I was sitting at the bar as this was a solo pursuit.

Watched Ted, fell asleep at least twice as the steak and beers really started to settle in. I laughed frequently, when I was awake.

On the way out, I saw a very odd sight as everyone was dressed up for the big premiere that night. As a matter of fact, every screen was showing the new movie. Starting at midnight, they were staggering start times. The movie? The Dark Knight Rises. Yeah that night.

Post by **brian** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Turns out this guy is a millionaire so definitely a WTF situation trying to get to a motive but I still think it was economic terrorism. I really think this guy was trying to affect tourism or stain/harm Las Vegas somehow. I know that probably sounds insane or I'm probably wrong but I just have that feeling.

Post by **brian** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:50 pm

Watch and see if he didn't have huge casino losses recently.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:51 pm

brian wrote:Turns out this guy is a millionaire so definitely a WTF situation trying to get to a motive but I still think it was economic terrorism. I really think this guy was trying to affect tourism or stain/harm Las Vegas somehow. I know that probably sounds insane or I'm probably wrong but I just have that feeling.

I'm wondering if some medical issue will come to light.

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:23 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
brian wrote:Turns out this guy is a millionaire so definitely a WTF situation trying to get to a motive but I still think it was economic terrorism. I really think this guy was trying to affect tourism or stain/harm Las Vegas somehow. I know that probably sounds insane or I'm probably wrong but I just have that feeling.

I'm wondering if some medical issue will come to light.

Gotta hope for a brain tumor (a la Charles Whitman, the Texas Tower shooter of 1966) for some logical reason. Or at least on-again off-again taking of ssri antidepressant, as is the case for many recent perpetrators of mass killings like this (but this is kinda my current thing, so I am biased to tend to blame ssri withdrawal/excessive dosing, so grain of salt.)

Rams Fanny · Post by **Rams Fanny** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:07 pm

Was just watching the local FOX channel doing continuous coverage from the Strip and local vigils. At exactly 8:00 the signal cut away to the national feed. FOX's monday 8pm show? Lucifer.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:22 pm

tennbengal wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:we really need to have a conversation about using the words "radical caucasian terrorism"

God help you on twitter today, Nick. Good luck.

today was a really fucking weird twitter day. glad I spent it not at a computer, though I checked more often than I wanted to admit

Post by **brian** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:16 am

Almost all of these victims were tourists. I thought it might be 60-40 but it's way worse.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:12 am

govmentchedda wrote:
Rams Fanny wrote:I wasn't at show but was in the area an hour and a half before shooting. My two oldest were offered tickets to the show but decided they were too tired. For once I'm not upset they ran themselves ragged over the weekend. Their friends made it out and I'm sure we'll get their stories relayed to us at the dinner table tonight.

I'm perplexed by this use of the term 'modern US history' wrt the murder numbers. Are we counting the Civil war as a series of mass shootings? It of course doesn't matter, I just find it odd.

I think most of you have been here before but in case you are unfamiliar with the area, there are excellent maps and graphics in this article

The thing I read online this morning about "modern US history" mentioned mass killings of African Americans about 100 years ago that would outnumber this. Not sure if they multiplied by 3/5 or not.

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/914963280501858304

Thread

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:12 pm

For my deployment I was scheduled for Active Shooter training today. It's the same Active Shooter training I did last year and years prior.

You have three main objectives: escape, barricade, and fight back. Not in any specific order, situation dictates.

You know what you aren't to do? Go on a fucking mission to seek out the perp and put him down yourself. You've added another gun to the fight and now first responders, in their adrenaline-induced, tunnel visioned, and auditory exclusionary state are going to put you down.

I asked the dude after class if this can be upchanneled to get the point across to the NRA that they aren't helping. He said he'd check, but it's eye opening to see the actual ROE is in stark contrast to these John Wayne types given a big dick by psychopaths in lobbyist positions.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:53 pm

Johnnie wrote:You know what you aren't to do? Go on a fucking missing to seek out the perp and put him down yourself.

Last thing I'm doing with cops on the scene is pull a piece. The reasons you state, plus there's my own adrenaline induced tunnel vision and confusion. And abject lack of training. Oh the melanin thing too.

I don't remember a recent incident of cops shooting a good-guy vigilante in a mass shooting but I bet it has happened.

A citizen with a gun might help in the minutes before the cops arrive, but after that, drop the gun, (take the cannolis).

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:23 pm

Thats interesting. One lesson ive seemed to learn is that someone has to take these guys out. All this hiding and barricading just lets these things go on for 10-15 minutes and lets guys kill dozens instead of handfuls. At VT the kids hid in the classroom and pretty much got dead. Pulse had reports of everyone hiding and running and the shooter just seems to walk around and shoot them dead while they tried to hide. And this. Not saying that youre going to run at a guy with a machine gun or that the people in the crowd had access to the shooter but I got to believe that some people were in nearby rooms. Maybe less than id think since its Vegas in the early evening but still. Reports I saw had him shooting for a long while. The most successful civilian revolt has to be the PA 9/11 plane crash and guess its easier to do if you feel youre in a certain death type of situation but id guess some of those situations (Pulse in particular) are a lot closer to 100% death than 0% death and the crowd acted irrationally in hiding.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:32 pm

Haul, c'mon. I mean, C'MON.

Let's say, hypothetically, you were three doors down from the Vegas murderer. You hear the bursts of gunfire, has to be close, but, you are in your room, and some "what the fuck" time has to pass while you try to process just what you are hearing. Because, you know, you are 32 floors up in Vegas and not in a war zone. Next, you need to figure out that what you ARE hearing is indeed automatic weapons fire, and that the person doing it is spraying people on the ground. Next, you need to figure out just what room the noise is coming from ( I would assume that shit echoed LOUD around the hallway). Then, you have to decide, say, I am going to break down a locked door and charge the fucker spraying machine gun fire on a crowd. And you won't be armed, most likely, and even if you are, I am guessing the sound of you breaking down the door or trying to guarantees you are going to be shot. A lot. And you have to make all these decisions and charge the door, in a span of minutes, when you have been lying in your bed contemplating the nice day you had or your bad beat in the poker tournament or wondering why you layid $100 on the Browns plus any number, and you are going to decide in that span to take your own life to try and stop what is happening? When I can't imagine processing what is happening in that same span, much less charging a locked door.

I mean, man, I've seen a lot of movies, but, fuck, that's asking a LOT.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:39 pm

Like I said, situation dictates. The perp is on a path of least resistance. He wants easy targets and mass casualties.

The instructor (a security forces staff sergeant) brought up Newtown. When he entered the school he came upon a hallway with 12 classrooms. Odd numbers to the left, even to the right. The victims were in rooms 10 & 12 - the end of the hallway.

The people trained to "take this guy out" are first responders. Cops, SWAT, etc. They do that as a job and as their livelihood. They have tactics and procedures that allow them to deal with threats. The rest of us don't. We need to flee and run to safety. Unless you're on a plane and don't have the option.

The problem is the mass populace doesn't get to go through this training. They get to watch Hollywood movies glorifying violence and defying physics and listening to the NRA spout bullshit.

It isn't unto you are forced into a situation of impending death that you realize 'how wrong you are'.

“I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd amendment my entire life. Until the events of last night,” Caleb Keeter, a guitarist for the Josh Abbott Band, wrote in a message on Twitter on Monday. “I cannot express how wrong I was. We actually have members of our crew with [concealed handgun licenses], and legal firearms on the bus. They were useless. We couldn’t touch them for fear police might think that we were part of the massacre and shoot us.”

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:44 pm

Are there people saying that folks should have been indiscriminately shooting at the Mandalay Bay Hotel to get this guy?

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:44 pm

There is hiding and there is hiding. In a locked hotel room behind a heavy door is different than hiding under a table in a school lunch room with a murderer walking around doing his thing. One small thing that a lot of schools/colleges changed after VT was routine policy on locking doors.

Running is my default in planning, for most emergencies. I come from a long line of chickens. But that is just in my head; hell if I know what I would do. Depend on how long the pants-shitting took.

Rex wrote:Are there people saying that folks should have been indiscriminately shooting at the Mandalay Bay Hotel to get this guy?

I saw one critique yesterday of police response suggesting they should've returned suppression fire. Upward 300 feet, a couple hundred feet downrange (uprange?). Into an occupied hotel. That was pretty funny. Too many movies I guess, like Bengal sed.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:59 pm

Had the fire alarm not triggered from all the gun smoke there would have been even more casualties.

Post by **Shirley** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:32 pm

Johnnie wrote:Had the fire alarm not triggered from all the gun smoke there would have been even more casualties.

That article claims it was over in 20 minutes. All the other reports I've seen said it took something like 72 minutes. I suspect the longer time frame is more accurate. I also read/heard that they went up, floor-by-floor until officers on 31 could actually hear him shooting from the floor above.

It's crazy to me to think about how much ammunition he must have had to fire that fast for so long.

Post by **brian** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:34 pm

Gunman may have originally planned to attack our downtown music festival (that I had attended the previous three years, but not this year).

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:37 pm

try this

https://twitter.com/ebenet/status/91507 ... gr%5Etweet

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:40 pm

That's how Governor St. Ronald Reagan pushed gun control through California. Because the Black Panthers rolled up into the State House armed and scared the frightened white people that worked there.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:40 pm

tennbengal wrote:
I mean, man, I've seen a lot of movies, but, fuck, that's asking a LOT.

And it's a fucking hypothetical that is used to ensure that no meaningful gun control laws will get passed. Say there's someone with a gun and proper training and he manages to shoot the bad guy without being killed by a first responder.

How often could that conceivably happen? How many of the 275 mass shootings this year would have been less severe? What a load of horseshit. similar to the post-Sandy Hook argument that the best way to curtail school shootings would be to arm teachers or have armed guards roaming the halls of the schools. Why treat the cause when you can create a way to sell even more guns?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 pm

Where does that 275 number come from? Not necessarily disputing it, but that seems...high.

I guess I'm saying what qualifies as "mass" shooting. A kid's mom and stepdad got shot in lexington earlier this year at their home by the ex husband, who then shot himself, is that a mass shooting?

Post by **brian** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:44 pm

A_B wrote:Where does that 275 number come from? Not necessarily disputing it, but that seems...high.

It's any shooting committed by one person that left two or more people dead other than the shooter. So not that high (unfortunately).

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:46 pm

brian wrote:
A_B wrote:Where does that 275 number come from? Not necessarily disputing it, but that seems...high.

It's any shooting committed by one person that left two or more people dead other than the shooter. So not that high (unfortunately).

Got you. But (and i edited while you were responding) a bunch of those are not in the same vein as what happened at the casino with assault rifles. Not condoning of course, but it's not really apples and apples. Because no matter what, even if by some miracle assault weapons were banned, those "mass shootings" by handguns will still happen. And no chance handguns/hunting rifles ever get outlawed.

(arguing semantics, of course.)

Post by **brian** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:53 pm

Yeah, that's fair but very few people are advocating banning handguns. The objective should be to make it hard to kill dozens of people at once. Any loss of life is unacceptable, but throwing your hands (the royal you) up in the air and saying murder will still happen, even if true, means there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people that could be saved by more responsible and restrictive gun laws. People die in traffic accidents -- hundreds a day -- but if there's an opportunity to make cars safer people demand that technology and the carmakers are almost always forced to add it to their cars. You never see people saying "well, people are going to die in car accidents anyway so no reason to make these vehicles safer."

Post by **Shirley** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:55 pm

Assault rifle kills get our attention, but it's cheap handguns that are the culprit in the vast majority of gun deaths. I think a lot of people would like to eliminate those.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:56 pm

Yeah, totally agree (with what Brian said). Just so we're clear, this is not an issue where I side with traditional conservatives in the least.

Post by **brian** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:58 pm

Wynn installs metal detectors for guests entering the casino.

My wife told me about this because they actually took the metal detectors they use for the employee entrances and just moved them to the public entrances so now the employees are getting wanded and in some cases hand-searched as they arrive to work.

This is a bad idea in the long-term I think.

GoodKarma · Post by **GoodKarma** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:15 pm

All of the hotels and nicer malls/shopping centers I went into in Istanbul had metal detectors at the guest entry point. That will be the only visible result of this.

Post by **brian** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:17 pm

GoodKarma wrote:All of the hotels and nicer malls/shopping centers I went into in Istanbul had metal detectors at the guest entry point. That will be the only visible result of this.

Unless they're going through people's luggage as well it wouldn't even have prevented this massacre. I really think it's a temporary thing Wynn is doing since its guests are...more demanding, to put it kindly.

GoodKarma · Post by **GoodKarma** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:18 pm

I should clarify...the hotels had bag scanners as well.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:31 pm

What if they gave everyone mandatory training on how to attack and overwhelm with numbers? We probably would get in the way of the guys that actually know what theyre doing but plenty of situations where I dont have time to wait on the cops. Just saying that the instantaneous calculation has changed in my mind if im feeling like im going to get shot. Very fact specific. I probably run from the movies, hide in the club, bum rush the classroom and crash the plane.