NBA Basketball 2017/18

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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DSafetyGuy
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by DSafetyGuy »

Joe K wrote:
duff wrote:The Pacers should have gotten more for George, but I am very pleased with the play of Olidipo and Sabonis so far. Hope they can keep it up and play even better when Turner comes back from concussion protocol.

On a related note, something looks seriously wrong with the Cavs. Their defense has been shamefully bad, and you gotta wonder how much job security Ty Lue has at this point. I know it sounds crazy to say that after back-to-back finals appearances, but given LeBron's pending free agency, the stakes are high for this season.


Did Lue ask them to roster every guard who can't defend? I get that he's an easy scapegoat, but Rose, Wade, and Calderon got added to a roster that already counted on Love and Korver. I get that Thompson got hurt the other night, but he was on pace for a career low in minutes before that and he's their best defensive big man. Apparently, the only way for an organization to find out how much Jeff Green sucks is to acquire him.

Every transaction should be aimed at getting guys who can shoot threes, defend, and have solid basketball IQ because the aim is to beat Golden State. Instead, they have the NBA's worst defense at 113.6 points per 100 possessions.

It's like they tried to build a roster to scare off LeBron after the season (aside from bringing his pal Wade in).
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by wlu_lax6 »

How do the Wiz lose to the Suns? Suns on a back-2-back and down by 22 in the first half but win. Every coach the Wiz has had over the last few years has talked about playing defense. Just noise with this squad.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Joe K »

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Joe K wrote:
duff wrote:The Pacers should have gotten more for George, but I am very pleased with the play of Olidipo and Sabonis so far. Hope they can keep it up and play even better when Turner comes back from concussion protocol.

On a related note, something looks seriously wrong with the Cavs. Their defense has been shamefully bad, and you gotta wonder how much job security Ty Lue has at this point. I know it sounds crazy to say that after back-to-back finals appearances, but given LeBron's pending free agency, the stakes are high for this season.


Did Lue ask them to roster every guard who can't defend? I get that he's an easy scapegoat, but Rose, Wade, and Calderon got added to a roster that already counted on Love and Korver. I get that Thompson got hurt the other night, but he was on pace for a career low in minutes before that and he's their best defensive big man. Apparently, the only way for an organization to find out how much Jeff Green sucks is to acquire him.

Every transaction should be aimed at getting guys who can shoot threes, defend, and have solid basketball IQ because the aim is to beat Golden State. Instead, they have the NBA's worst defense at 113.6 points per 100 possessions.

It's like they tried to build a roster to scare off LeBron after the season (aside from bringing his pal Wade in).

I get that they made some questionable signings, but they also swapped Kyrie (a poor defender) for Crowder, a good defender. And personnel aside, the effort on defense has been nonexistent. On the season, they're allowing their opponents to make 14 3s per game, at a 42% success rate. Opponent 3PT % can be somewhat random but there seems to be a pattern of the Cavs not even trying to defend shooters.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by DSafetyGuy »

Joe K wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:
Joe K wrote:[On a related note, something looks seriously wrong with the Cavs. Their defense has been shamefully bad, and you gotta wonder how much job security Ty Lue has at this point. I know it sounds crazy to say that after back-to-back finals appearances, but given LeBron's pending free agency, the stakes are high for this season.


Did Lue ask them to roster every guard who can't defend? I get that he's an easy scapegoat, but Rose, Wade, and Calderon got added to a roster that already counted on Love and Korver. I get that Thompson got hurt the other night, but he was on pace for a career low in minutes before that and he's their best defensive big man. Apparently, the only way for an organization to find out how much Jeff Green sucks is to acquire him.

Every transaction should be aimed at getting guys who can shoot threes, defend, and have solid basketball IQ because the aim is to beat Golden State. Instead, they have the NBA's worst defense at 113.6 points per 100 possessions.

It's like they tried to build a roster to scare off LeBron after the season (aside from bringing his pal Wade in).

I get that they made some questionable signings, but they also swapped Kyrie (a poor defender) for Crowder, a good defender. And personnel aside, the effort on defense has been nonexistent. On the season, they're allowing their opponents to make 14 3s per game, at a 42% success rate. Opponent 3PT % can be somewhat random but there seems to be a pattern of the Cavs not even trying to defend shooters.


I think expecting this Cavs roster to defend guards is a fool's errand due to the roster management and how the players are deployed - Crowder at 25.6 minutes per game, Rose at 28.5 per game.

Back to the roster, when you absolutely need shooting threes and defense (to beat Golden State), couldn't they possibly be better off with random 3-and-D young players who have a chance to improve over the course of a season (and want to prove themselves instead of being worn-down, injury-prone vets)?

Part of my annoyance comes from listening to yesterday's Lowe Post with Windhorst. While both agreed "it's early" as to why they shouldn't make too big a deal about the crappy defense, they mentioned how Cleveland was not able to turn it on last year on defense. They also spent an inordinate time discussing something the Cavs do care about, unlike their defense - their team Halloween party. Multiple players spending hours to have makeup professionally done, Korver flying in friends from LA to go as Oompa Loompas as part of his group themed costumes, and so on. It's their free time, they can do what they want, but that may not be the best look for a team struggling like this.

I think trying to blame Lue is ridiculous, especially if he is not going to be given time to figure out this roster and its terrible, non-useful redundancies.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Rex »

Let's discuss how Porzingis is the only player in the league right now.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Rex »

The funny thing is I started typing that post before he did this:

https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/926626134459944960
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by A_B »

Lebron says fuck you jobu.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Rex »

Name rings a bell, but I'm not placing him at the moment.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Joe K »

Porzingis is the perfect modern center and it owns that lots of people wanted the Knicks to take Justise Winslow instead.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by tennbengal »

Rex wrote:The funny thing is I started typing that post before he did this:

https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/926626134459944960



Good lord.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Pruitt »

tennbengal wrote:
Rex wrote:The funny thing is I started typing that post before he did this:

https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/926626134459944960



Good lord.


Holy shit!
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Joe K »

The Celtics and Kyrie are well on their way to murdering Real Plus-Minus as a respected metric.

For those who aren't NBA stat nerds like me, a whole bunch of stats types were adamant that Kyrie was super overrated -- and not very valuable -- based on his on/off plus-minus stats with Cleveland. But Boston's performance without Hayward sure seems to be validating the "Kyrie is a superstar" camp.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Giff »

Too bad it wasn't a triple-double...

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/statu ... 9087801344
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Pruitt »

So that means that Chamberlain got two assists on his big night?
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Shirley »

I read that stat as meaning Harden got scored on for 91 points, nearly matching his record. Sounded about right.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Giff »

Shirley wrote:I read that stat as meaning Harden got scored on for 91 points, nearly matching his record. Sounded about right.


[insert roll eye emoji]
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Joe K »

Giff wrote:
Shirley wrote:I read that stat as meaning Harden got scored on for 91 points, nearly matching his record. Sounded about right.


[insert roll eye emoji]

I'm with Giff on this one. James Harden is such an insanely valuable offensive player that any criticisms of his defense at this point are pretty tired.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by sancarlos »

Joe K wrote:
Giff wrote:
Shirley wrote:I read that stat as meaning Harden got scored on for 91 points, nearly matching his record. Sounded about right.


[insert roll eye emoji]

I'm with Giff on this one. James Harden is such an insanely valuable offensive player that any criticisms of his defense at this point are pretty tired.

So, what percentage of being good at defense is effort-related?

I think people harp on players who aren't good at defense because few people have elite skill, but anybody could give top effort.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Joe K »

sancarlos wrote:
Joe K wrote:
Giff wrote:
Shirley wrote:I read that stat as meaning Harden got scored on for 91 points, nearly matching his record. Sounded about right.


[insert roll eye emoji]

I'm with Giff on this one. James Harden is such an insanely valuable offensive player that any criticisms of his defense at this point are pretty tired.

So, what percentage of being good at defense is effort-related?

I think people harp on players who aren't good at defense because few people have elite skill, but anybody could give top effort.

How many people could give top defensive effort while bearing the offensive burden that Harden does? Maybe LeBron, but he certainly doesn't give his best effort on defense in the regular season. The calculus might be different for big men, but at least for guards, you'd much rather have a ++ offensive player who isn't a good defender than vice versa. Harden is way more valuable than someone like Tony Allen or Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Giff »

Joe K wrote:
sancarlos wrote:
Joe K wrote:
Giff wrote:
Shirley wrote:I read that stat as meaning Harden got scored on for 91 points, nearly matching his record. Sounded about right.


[insert roll eye emoji]

I'm with Giff on this one. James Harden is such an insanely valuable offensive player that any criticisms of his defense at this point are pretty tired.

So, what percentage of being good at defense is effort-related?

I think people harp on players who aren't good at defense because few people have elite skill, but anybody could give top effort.

How many people could give top defensive effort while bearing the offensive burden that Harden does? Maybe LeBron, but he certainly doesn't give his best effort on defense in the regular season. The calculus might be different for big men, but at least for guards, you'd much rather have a ++ offensive player who isn't a good defender than vice versa. Harden is way more valuable than someone like Tony Allen or Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.


It also doesn't help that a lot of the old YouTube videos you'd see were totally cherry-picked. For example, I remember one that was even posted here of Harden letting a man go right past him in the 2nd quarter of a random game, but no one bothered to post the great defensive play by Harden that sealed the game.

I'm just at a loss how those numbers aren't astounding to basketball fans. He has two of the top three games of all-time and in the other, the dude scored 100 points on his own.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Shirley »

I just posted that to tweak Giff a bit (and that is how I read the chart at first). I forgot I'd done it until I clicked here again. Fun surprise!
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Giff »

Shirley wrote:I just posted that to tweak Giff a bit (and that is how I read the chart at first). I forgot I'd done it until I clicked here again. Fun surprise!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhLbA-B-bE
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by L-Jam3 »

I think a totally fair assessment of Harden's game is that he's a truly sublime offensive player who is less-than entertaining to watch. The old ugly-but-effective method, like the MoneyBall Athletics offense of the early 2000, the NJ Devils Neutral Zone Trap, the Ravens their entire existence, and Bernard Hopkins.

I say that as someone who watched Allen Iverson for 10 years.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by A_B »

Bucks getting Bledsoe makes the east a lot more interesting. Lebron gotta do some work to get Cavs to another finals with Celts, Bucks and Wiz all very much capable of taking a series from them. (I'm reserving judgement on the Pistons and Magic.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by rass »

Like you're reserving that closing parenthesis.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by A_B »

rass wrote:Like you're reserving that closing parenthesis.



I might have more thoughts. Seems unlikely though.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Joe K »

Cavs need to start actually trying in games against crappy teams. They have wins over Boston, @ Milwaukee (a beatdown), and @ Washington. But their effort against non-contender opponents has been embarrassing. I know there are roster issues -- most notably Thompson's injury and Rose being Rose -- but there's no excuse for getting blown off the court for three quarters in a home game against the Hawks.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by A_B »

Cavs are weird. I only got to watch a half or so total but just such a weird team.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by TT2.0 »

L-Jam3 wrote:I think a totally fair assessment of Harden's game is that he's a truly sublime offensive player who is less-than entertaining to watch. The old ugly-but-effective method, like the MoneyBall Athletics offense of the early 2000, the NJ Devils Neutral Zone Trap, the Ravens their entire existence, and Bernard Hopkins.

I say that as someone who watched Allen Iverson for 10 years.


im confused...are you somehow implying that allen iverson of all people wasnt entertaining to watch?
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by L-Jam3 »

I totally fucked that comparison up. Of course Iverson was entertaining as fuck. Damn. Maybe I was confusing efficiency, but that doesn't hold up either. Harden can be knocked about a lot of things, but efficiency isn't one of them.

Sorry, I just went brain dead for a moment. Carry on.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by mister d »

If you're trying to say he's an incredible scorer who isn't nearly as exciting to watch as his more athletic sueprstar peers, why not just call him a black Larry Bird?
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by TT2.0 »

L-Jam3 wrote:I totally fucked that comparison up. Of course Iverson was entertaining as fuck. Damn. Maybe I was confusing efficiency, but that doesn't hold up either. Harden can be knocked about a lot of things, but efficiency isn't one of them.

Sorry, I just went brain dead for a moment. Carry on.


all good. i had worked all night and was terrified i was missing something obvious and was about to look more stupid then i usually do
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Sabo »

Nice profile on the business side of Giannis Antetokounmpo. Seems like this kid has a good head on his shoulders.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by DSafetyGuy »

https://twitter.com/Bucks/status/928116 ... them-video

Watch the first 90 seconds or so, then jump to 3:40. Seems like a pretty good guy.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Rex »

The most amazing thing about this Knicks season, which seems destined to end in them getting the 13th pick, is that all of the personnel makes sense for the first time in ages. Obviously they need to upgrade in several places to actually contend, but everybody actually makes sense on this team at this time, even Hardaway though that’s a close call.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Rex »

Come on Bron, Kanter has stared down the Turkish government, you ain't nothing
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Rex »

Man, shit is happening in the Garden in the last 10 minutes that hasn't happened in decades.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Joe K »

Rex wrote:Man, shit is happening in the Garden in the last 10 minutes that hasn't happened in decades.

...
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Rex »

eh, I don't think the result is that important right now. And also, of all the reasons the Knicks have lost games over the last 20 years, tonight's reason (inexperience) is way down the list.
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Re: NBA Basketball 2017/18

Post by Pruitt »

This James kid... he's pretty good.
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