The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Okay . . . let's try this again.

Moderators: Shirley, brian, ZMan, Sabo

Post Reply
tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:13 am

It was the last post on the other thread, but that thread is huge, and perhaps we start fresh with the initial indicments, prelude, I am sure, to Trump firing Mueller, pardoning Manafort and Gates, and Ryan and McConnell doing nothing.

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 13658
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by mister d » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:17 am

Yup. I bet he’s already asked if a “pre-pardon” is a thing.
bfj wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 am
My people call that Kishka.

ETA - we don't call weird dicks Kishka.

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:19 am

Under what circumstances would Manafort NOT flip? If he knows he's being pardoned. That's it. Otherwise, he should be pre-singing. I know JoeK has always taken exception with my using the word treason, but I still think it applies to this situation. All of them, they who collaborated, they committed treason. Thing is, they are now running the show, so, I guess it's not?

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:23 am

That said, this makes me happy:


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:24 am

Also, this remains relevant. Still wondering who was paid what at the NY Times last October...


User avatar
L-Jam3
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:43 am

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by L-Jam3 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:29 am

That's why Mueller included the NY AG. Presidents can only pardon Federal crimes.
My avatar corresponds on my place in the Swamp posting list with the all-time Home Run list. Starting backwards from 100, #98 (actually in a three-way tie at 97) is Dave "The Cobra" Parker with 339.

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:35 am

L-Jam3 wrote:That's why Mueller included the NY AG. Presidents can only pardon Federal crimes.


Yeah. I keep forgetting that. I wonder if anyone has told Trump that...

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:40 am


User avatar
L-Jam3
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:43 am

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by L-Jam3 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:41 am

tennbengal wrote:
L-Jam3 wrote:That's why Mueller included the NY AG. Presidents can only pardon Federal crimes.


Yeah. I keep forgetting that. I wonder if anyone has told Trump that...


Like he'd listen. Or understand that.
My avatar corresponds on my place in the Swamp posting list with the all-time Home Run list. Starting backwards from 100, #98 (actually in a three-way tie at 97) is Dave "The Cobra" Parker with 339.

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:08 am

The charges:


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:11 am


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:26 am

So, more like "Make America not really first".

User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 13664
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: T-Mobile Arena

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 am

Could just be the tip of the iceberg for charges against Manafort as well. There were some statute of limitations issues with some of the financial crimes. Since I can't imagine a rich 68-year-old man wants to spend the rest of his life in federal prison, now the fun starts.
Vegas Golden Knights retired numbers:
#58 (To honor victims of 1 October shooting)

User avatar
Pruitt
The Dude
Posts: 11561
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:02 am
Location: North Shore of Lake Ontario

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:45 am

"Conspiracy Against The United States"

Doesn't the death penalty apply for extreme cases?
"Maybe he shit out his memory." - Mr. D

User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 13664
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: T-Mobile Arena

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:48 am

Pruitt wrote:"Conspiracy Against The United States"

Doesn't the death penalty apply for extreme cases?


Technically for treason, yes. Though that's not what he was charged with. All jokes aside, TB's Arrested Development vid is pretty accurate. Conspiracy against the United States could be considered "light treason" or as manslaughter as opposed to murder.

That said, I have literally no idea what the possible range of sentences is for that, but I'm guessing it can't be good. The financial crimes alone enough should be enough to ensure he dies in prison if he's convinced.

ETA: And doesn't flip and get leniency, of course.
Vegas Golden Knights retired numbers:
#58 (To honor victims of 1 October shooting)

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 13658
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by mister d » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:53 am

tennbengal wrote:So, more like "Make America not really first".


Maintain (Certain) Americans First Always.
bfj wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 am
My people call that Kishka.

ETA - we don't call weird dicks Kishka.

User avatar
Rex
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 3903
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Rex » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:54 am

hey Ham Sandwich, you're back in the news!

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:20 am


User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 5606
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by govmentchedda » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:27 am

tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/samstein/status/925003784555847680

In a reply to that original tweet, "I'm hoping they don't charge ma'am too".

So good.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.

User avatar
Joe K
Donny
Posts: 2865
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Joe K » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:30 am

brian wrote:
Pruitt wrote:"Conspiracy Against The United States"

Doesn't the death penalty apply for extreme cases?


Technically for treason, yes. Though that's not what he was charged with. All jokes aside, TB's Arrested Development vid is pretty accurate. Conspiracy against the United States could be considered "light treason" or as manslaughter as opposed to murder.

That said, I have literally no idea what the possible range of sentences is for that, but I'm guessing it can't be good. The financial crimes alone enough should be enough to ensure he dies in prison if he's convinced.

ETA: And doesn't flip and get leniency, of course.

I haven't read the indictment yet but Conspiracy Against the United States is a pretty standard charge in any case involving tax fraud, as that statute could be applied to mean "conspiracy to defraud the US Treasury by not paying your taxes." Although there is work on behalf of foreign entities here, people or companies get charged with Conspiracy Against the United States all the time in cases that are more garden variety financial crimes.

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:36 am


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:37 am


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:38 am


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:48 am


User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 7279
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by degenerasian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:52 am

I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:53 am


User avatar
Pruitt
The Dude
Posts: 11561
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:02 am
Location: North Shore of Lake Ontario

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:54 am

"Maybe he shit out his memory." - Mr. D

User avatar
Pruitt
The Dude
Posts: 11561
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:02 am
Location: North Shore of Lake Ontario

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:01 am

"Maybe he shit out his memory." - Mr. D

User avatar
Nonlinear FC
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 3522
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Nonlinear FC » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:02 am

tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/status/925010981067132930



That guy was an intern when I worked at New America Foundation. Sharp as a tack. Cool to see him and Ezra and M. Iglesias all stepping out. There are a few more that were either with NAF or coming to events and hanging around (in a good way) about 10 years back that pretty regularly pop up on national news/feeds these days.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:08 am

I do like Beutler, he's good.


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:15 am


User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 13658
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by mister d » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:21 am

Just in case you're feeling too positive and were wondering what would happen when Trump fires Mueller today ...

bfj wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 am
My people call that Kishka.

ETA - we don't call weird dicks Kishka.

User avatar
Joe K
Donny
Posts: 2865
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Joe K » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:25 am

tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/Zathras3/status/925016563979300866

This is probably right. I read the Manafort indictment and while his level of sheer greed is astounding, there isn't anything in there about campaign-related activities.

User avatar
The Sybian
The Dude
Posts: 9502
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by The Sybian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:29 am

degenerasian wrote:I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.


Really? The entire point of going after Manafort is to get him to provide evidence against Trump in exchange for a lighter sentence. If Trump pardon's Manafort, he doesn't need to give any evidence against Trump. Trump isn't going to pardon Manafort to help a friend, he is going to want to pardon Manafort to save his own ass! There are dozens of targets who have info that could sink Trump. Trump needs them all to believe that they don't need to give dirt on Trump to save their own asses. Of course he would pardon everyone if he could.

Trump pardoning his conspirators is the only thing saving his own ass, This is why Mueller brought in State AGs to bring state charges, so Trump can't pardon those charges. Everything hinges on a mechanism to prevent Trump from pardoning everyone, and Congress won't do their fucking job and keep the wannabe despot in check.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:29 am

Joe K wrote:
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/Zathras3/status/925016563979300866

This is probably right. I read the Manafort indictment and while his level of sheer greed is astounding, there isn't anything in there about campaign-related activities.


The heat is in the Papadoulous guilty plea. Smoke and fire there. And Mueller kept it under wraps for months. No leaks from Mueller. I bet he has others already wrapped up that no one knows about yet.


tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:33 am


User avatar
Joe K
Donny
Posts: 2865
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Joe K » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:40 am

tennbengal wrote:
Joe K wrote:
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/Zathras3/status/925016563979300866

This is probably right. I read the Manafort indictment and while his level of sheer greed is astounding, there isn't anything in there about campaign-related activities.


The heat is in the Papadoulous guilty plea. Smoke and fire there. And Mueller kept it under wraps for months. No leaks from Mueller. I bet he has others already wrapped up that no one knows about yet.


Yeah, I read the Papdapolous document and it's definitely the most significant evidence of collusion yet. It's interesting that there appear to be numerous references to Manafort there. Perhaps the idea is to charge Manafort with the tax fraud, which he appears to be dead to rights on, and then see what he's willing to say about campaign-related activities.

tennbengal
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4481
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by tennbengal » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:43 am

Could be. Someone on the twitters pointed out the Manafort stuff has everything in full detail until he joins team Trump in 2016. Then it goes silent. It seems highly likely to me that Mueller is holding back from the charge the post-Trump campaign manager time period for leverage at this point.

User avatar
Steve of phpBB
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 3132
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:44 am

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Steve of phpBB » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:53 am

tennbengal wrote:Could be. Someone on the twitters pointed out the Manafort stuff has everything in full detail until he joins team Trump in 2016. Then it goes silent. It seems highly likely to me that Mueller is holding back from the charge the post-Trump campaign manager time period for leverage at this point.


I agree. We also need to remember that even if the Trump campaign explicitly colluded with Russia - promised pro-Russia policies in exchange for campaign assistance - it's not even clear that that is an actual crime under the US Code.

I also don't think it's accurate to say it's treason. The US isn't at war with Russia.

What it does show, at a minimum, is breach of Trump's fiduciary duty as President to put the interests of the United States ahead of his own. Which should be grounds for impeachment, but won't be unless Trump himself does something to make impeachment unavoidable.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 7279
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by degenerasian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:58 am

The Sybian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.


Really? The entire point of going after Manafort is to get him to provide evidence against Trump in exchange for a lighter sentence. If Trump pardon's Manafort, he doesn't need to give any evidence against Trump. Trump isn't going to pardon Manafort to help a friend, he is going to want to pardon Manafort to save his own ass! There are dozens of targets who have info that could sink Trump. Trump needs them all to believe that they don't need to give dirt on Trump to save their own asses. Of course he would pardon everyone if he could.

Trump pardoning his conspirators is the only thing saving his own ass, This is why Mueller brought in State AGs to bring state charges, so Trump can't pardon those charges. Everything hinges on a mechanism to prevent Trump from pardoning everyone, and Congress won't do their fucking job and keep the wannabe despot in check.


You forgot how arrogant Trump is. He always thinks he can save his own ass. And why not, it's gotten him through business and all the way to the Presidency. He thinks he's bullet-proof. Trump will distance and minimize his relationship with Manafort. It will smash a million holes in all his pardon bluster from before and will make anyone who might potentially be facing charges realize that unless your name is Trump, you're going to be left swinging in the wind. Trump and Manafort did not part amicably. Since Manafort voluntarily surrendered to the FBI, and he has no support from Trump, I'm guessing Muellers going to flip him pretty fast. When Manafort flips, Trump will have a different strategy. FAKE NEWS!
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..

Post Reply