The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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[ ] Are they polite and aware of the benefits of good public decorum
[ ] Have you ever seen them smile
[ ] Do they have a family (bonus points for a daughter)
[ ] Can they speak without creeping you the fuck out out
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Pardon me good sir, but are you pure evil or merely anxious, in an economic sense?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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This Devin Nunes thing is ridiculous. It's unreal how brazen he can be.

Remember when shit like that was a huge scandal? Now it's nothing.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Johnnie wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:04 pm This Devin Nunes thing is ridiculous. It's unreal how brazen he can be.

Remember when shit like that was a huge scandal? Now it's nothing.
If the democrat running against Nunes doesn't play up a slogan something like, "Nunes isn't working for your interest, he's working for Trump's interest", then they aren't doing it right.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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sancarlos wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:20 pm
Johnnie wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:04 pm This Devin Nunes thing is ridiculous. It's unreal how brazen he can be.

Remember when shit like that was a huge scandal? Now it's nothing.
If the democrat running against Nunes doesn't play up a slogan something like, "Nunes isn't working for your interest, he's working for Trump's interest", then they aren't doing it right.
What percentage in Nunes' District voted for Trump? No matter how bad shit gets, Trump ain't losing supporters.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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sancarlos wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:20 pmIf the democrat running against Nunes doesn't play up a slogan something like, "Nunes isn't working for your interest, he's working for Trump's interest", then they aren't doing it right.
But their interest isn't themselves, its Trump.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Here's the answers to your questions:

Democratic poll shows Janz eight points behind Nunes

Article written on June 28.

Trump won by 10 points in 2016
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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(Fuck McCain.)
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Silly Socialist. Everyone knows that profits for “Space Force” defense contractors >>> health care or education for the less fortunate. After all, when’s the last time some lowly inner city child bought their Congressman box seats to a Nationals game?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Am i in the minority? Tuition-free College is really a dumb idea. There are already too many unemployed degrees out there. Universities would then just cash in on international students who pay triple.

Healthcare I can see both sides of the argument. Either private or public or a mix.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Is tuition free high school a really dumb idea?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:41 am Am i in the minority? Tuition-free College is really a dumb idea. There are already too many unemployed degrees out there. Universities would then just cash in on international students who pay triple.

Healthcare I can see both sides of the argument. Either private or public or a mix.
Tuition costs have skyrocketed over the last few decades, and student loans can be very predatory. So that creates a huge structural advantage for kids from families wealthy enough to just pay their tuition without loans. And that advantage is compounded when you consider the cost of living in places like NYC, DC and the Bay Area where certain jobs are concentrated. Good luck breaking into the tech sector if you have to make monthly payments towards both student loan debt and San Francisco rent.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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While I agree there needs to be something done about the overall cost of higher education, I don't think free tuition is the be all end all. However, my view that people should only go to a school they can reasonably afford is apparently too crazy. And also get a degree that has job propsects for how you want to live. If you want a fine arts degree in interpretative belly dancing, don't get it at some 50k a year private school and then be gobsmacked when you can't pay your bills.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Also, I’d like to see the empirical evidence that there are “too many unemployed degrees.” And your suggested solution — making college prohibitively expensive for some — would significantly exacerbate problems with economic inequality that can already span multiple generations. Born into poverty? Tough shit, America needs coal miners too.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:41 am Am i in the minority? Tuition-free College is really a dumb idea. There are already too many unemployed degrees out there. Universities would then just cash in on international students who pay triple.
It's not about unemployed degrees. It's about learning.

And not for nothing, have you seen the price of college? And for what? Being able to assemble to a room for a few hours a week to listen to someone speak and then write reports and take tests to regurgitate what they've said with a bit more analysis? That's a whole lot of money to eventually get a piece of paper with a name of a college on it.

College is a racket. The internet is essentially a Library of Alexandria a thousand times over. YouTube videos help teach you anything. And books are freely able to be borrowed and purchased virtually. You can learn anything you want for free already. It's the accreditation of an institution that says "yes, you've learned. Good job."

And if American universities want to gouge international students, maybe more Americans need to study abroad ...for free.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:01 am Also, I’d like to see the empirical evidence that there are “too many unemployed degrees.” And your suggested solution — making college prohibitively expensive for some — would significantly exacerbate problems with economic inequality that can already span multiple generations. Born into poverty? Tough shit, America needs coal miners too.
Wait...who are you talking to here? I know the first part is degen, but who said to make it prohibitively expensive?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Johnnie wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:03 am
degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:41 am Am i in the minority? Tuition-free College is really a dumb idea. There are already too many unemployed degrees out there. Universities would then just cash in on international students who pay triple.
It's not about unemployed degrees. It's about learning.

And not for nothing, have you seen the price of college? And for what? Being able to assemble to a room for a few hours a week to listen to someone speak and then write reports and take tests to regurgitate what they've said with a bit more analysis? That's a whole lot of money to eventually get a piece of paper with a name of a college on it.

College is a racket. The internet is essentially a Library of Alexandria a thousand times over. YouTube videos help teach you anything. And books are freely able to be borrowed and purchased virtually. You can learn anything you want for free already. It's the accreditation of an institution that says "yes, you've learned. Good job."

And if American universities want to gouge international students, maybe more Americans need to study abroad ...for free.
This is a bad take.
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I was talking to Degen. His argument was that the downside to free college is that there are too many college graduates. I dispute that there are too many graduates and even if that’s true, having tuition costs play the gatekeeping function for limiting access would hugely benefit the wealthy and hurt the less fortunate.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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A_B wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:06 amThis is a bad take.
There are definitely surly parts to the internet, but how was what I said a bad take?
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Well, for starters it assumes self-taught is the same as taught by someone with more expertise and, much larger, assume the learn-er will be able to discern what on the internet is reputable and what's not. I could spend the next year learning anything I wanted completely wrong if I chose to. The second generation of your cycle has me teaching that.
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Johnnie wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:10 am
A_B wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:06 amThis is a bad take.
There are definitely surly parts to the internet, but how was what I said a bad take?
You can definitely learn things from the internet. But I think I'll stick with engineers designing my bridges, doctors doing medical stuff, lawyers handling the law, etc. If you're just wanting to be worldly and informed, sure, the internet is a place where you can get a lot of that. But there's value in a degree, IMO. Structure has its merits.

Edit: What Mr. D said is something I omitted, but yes, there is some assurance of quality of information coming from someone who has dedicated their life to a topic. It's not 100% assured, but there is at least a greatly reasonable comfort.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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mister d wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:47 am Is tuition free high school a really dumb idea?
No because high school students are under 18.

I don't know how free tuition would even work for college considering out of state and international students.
What would be the criteria for entrance? What about scholarships? Or graduate school? Can private colleges open?
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Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:07 am I was talking to Degen. His argument was that the downside to free college is that there are too many college graduates. I dispute that there are too many graduates and even if that’s true, having tuition costs play the gatekeeping function for limiting access would hugely benefit the wealthy and hurt the less fortunate.
Got you, thanks. I just wasn't sure because I was in the middle there and then there was the coal jab so I was admittedly on the defense.

(We have a fair amount of college graduates at our operations. I doubt its a majority for hourly employees, but we offer good pay and great benefits so it is an attractive option for some people. And while it isn't a "skilled" profession by the generally accepted definition, I sure as shit couldn't do what a lot of those guys do without some serious training. Now, that goes both ways, of course.)
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degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:29 am
mister d wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:47 am Is tuition free high school a really dumb idea?
No because high school students are under 18.

I don't know how free tuition would even work for college considering out of state and international students.
What would be the criteria for entrance? What about scholarships? Or graduate school? Can private colleges open?
Generally I think the idea of free tuition would be limited to public schools to increase the availability of access to all. I think you would still have the option to go to a private school, it just wouldn't be guaranteed. Harvard wouldn't just be immediately expected to accept everyone in anyone's version of free tuition, I don't think.
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The Quislings of the American Collapse.
What’s happening, to put it bluntly, is that (some) downwardly mobile white American middle class men — at least some of them — are being radicalized. Not by ISIS, by communism. But by a seductive, grandiose kind of authoritarianism. To become something like true believers in the Russian model of society. A patriarchal supremacy. A repressive, ethnically charged patriarchy, in which the state is a mechanism for the pure and strong to dominate the impure and weak, with violence, exclusion, fear, and intimidation. All of which the pure and strong believe vehemently is right, just, noble, and true. But it’s in fact just a tool of oligarchy, to go on enriching itself. Give men in decline someone to hate, it seems, and they’ll let you exploit them to the bone. Who cares if an oligarch owns your energy grid — when you have gays to bash, women to demean, and immigrants to bully?
Hence, there are two classes of American quislings today. One we’ve discussed a little bit — downwardly mobile white men. But then there are elites. The elites seem to be less motivated by ideology than by money and power. That’s ironic, because it’s an effect of predatory capitalism — which America’s long championed. Russia’s oligarchs have the money to, it seems, buy American democracy lock, stock, and barrel. They’ve accomplished in just a few years what the missiles and bombs of the Cold War couldn’t for decades. Cold, hard cash seems to have lured America’s conservative establishment to become something like, in one of the greatest ironies of modern history, Russia’s representatives. America’s leaders aren’t being radicalized as much as they’re selling America out, in a grand irony of capitalism come back to haunt a collapsing society.
So let’s come back to the American quislings who are everyday people. This group of middle class white men isn’t educated or cultured or literate enough to be in the elite. They don’t have the right pedigrees or backgrounds to propel them into riches. They are just thoroughly average men, managers, accountants, plumbers. Who feel cheated, wronged, and thwarted. Wasn’t everything supposed to be theirs? So vehemently, perhaps even violently, they believe that they are the rightful and sole inheritors of society. Hence, they seem to suddenly cherish Russia as a kind of ideal nation — just like American Nazis once admired and revered Hitler’s Germany — because that is exactly what Russia promises uneducated middle class white men, too. They are the rightful inheritors of everything — women, property, money, safety, society itself. Only it’s a con game.
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I see what you guys are saying. There is a gap there.

Though I should have been clear... If we were going with most (not all) "unemployable" degrees and the respective fields of study in those, self taught might be the best way in general, imo. I think I follow a good deal of interpretive belly dancing Instagram pages already.

My thought process was not even going towards engineering or medical areas. Absolutely you need experts there to teach.
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Gotcha, although I think even the non-profitable arts would fall off pretty drastically if you eliminated the academic side.
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Fair. There's certainly a way to compromise on all of it. It just boils down to paying to much into something that ultimately endebts everyone and you aren't better for it in the end. Outside of people like me that get to have a large portion of school paid for as I'm active duty and I get the GI Bill thanks to the VA, this issue is maybe if you don't want a large contingent of working poor, highly educated people.
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Johnnie wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:35 am Fair. There's certainly a way to compromise on all of it. It just boils down to paying to much into something that ultimately endebts everyone and you aren't better for it in the end. Outside of people like me that get to have a large portion of school paid for as I'm active duty and I get the GI Bill thanks to the VA, this issue is maybe if you don't want a large contingent of working poor, highly educated people.
Which brings up another issue. Would free-tuition college lower military enrollment?
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degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:37 am
Johnnie wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:35 am Fair. There's certainly a way to compromise on all of it. It just boils down to paying to much into something that ultimately endebts everyone and you aren't better for it in the end. Outside of people like me that get to have a large portion of school paid for as I'm active duty and I get the GI Bill thanks to the VA, this issue is maybe if you don't want a large contingent of working poor, highly educated people.
Which brings up another issue. Would free-tuition college lower military enrollment?
Yeah, heaven forbid there isn't a steady stream of lower class people who only have the option of being used as cannon fodder for the American oligarchy as their only means of reaching the middle class. That would be a shame.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Oh no. With a guaranteed paycheck, opportunity to see the world, people who have legacy reasons to be in, and it being a way out of your podunk town while learning a potential skill, the military is always a viable job/career route.

In fact, most people don't know about the $4,500 per fiscal year in free money for college (and a free certification for something career field dependent) until after they get in. And this is for the Air Force, mind you. ( We're the only service with an accredited degree plan. ) I'm not sure about other services.

New recruits will get inundated with the GI Bill stuff. But that's a VA program, not DoD.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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I wonder how "free" tuition would affect recruitment to blue collar jobs. Even now there are a lot of skilled blue collar jobs that are for some reason really hard to recruit for. Have a buddy that owns an electrical construction company that he's paying for people to get certified because there aren't enough electricians to do all the work he has contracted for.
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Yeah, a lot of trades are having a hard time recruiting for whatever reason, which is kind of surprising. My 23-year-old nephew went to HVAC school for free and makes like $30/hour now. That's an insane amount of money for a kid that age.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:01 am Also, I’d like to see the empirical evidence that there are “too many unemployed degrees.” And your suggested solution — making college prohibitively expensive for some — would significantly exacerbate problems with economic inequality that can already span multiple generations. Born into poverty? Tough shit, America needs coal miners too.
It's not that there are too many unemployed degrees...it's a skills gap. Not enough people studying the right thing. The current employment/job posting statistics back that up. There are now more open jobs that unemployed workers.

I think the solution is free community/2-year college and/or trade schools. If you want a Bachelor's or higher then the current system can take over.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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mister d wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:14 am Well, for starters it assumes self-taught is the same as taught by someone with more expertise and, much larger, assume the learn-er will be able to discern what on the internet is reputable and what's not. I could spend the next year learning anything I wanted completely wrong if I chose to. The second generation of your cycle has me teaching that.
Exactly. There are some really slick, persuasive videos proving the Earth is flat. If you can't tell the difference between the "facts" backing their arguments and 500 years of scientific proof, I can totally understand how people fall for that shit. And science proves itself wrong every day, so you can't trust something that is "just a theory," right? As great as the internet is in teaching things like repairing cars or fixing stuff around the house, it's incredibly dangerous in spreading ideas to people lacking the critical thought to discern what is true.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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When I had to call a plumber to get some hardware and swap it out, it was $125. And the small talk we had while he did his job was that of "Not enough people want to be plumbers. I'm in my mid 40s and we've had 1 person, late 30s, apply to work for us in the last few years."

My good friend up in Washington is going to become an electrician because he figured why the hell not. It'll pay well.

Now that I own a home I want to just upgrade everything, but do it myself. Makes me think that after I'm done with the military I'll learn a trade if I get too bored checking IDs at Costco.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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It's evidently hard to get into Costco. My brother, who is a butcher, has been trying to get into there for years. And he's got an in at corporate!

I'm sure Johnnie will be a shoe-in with his stellar military record and being a person of colour.
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