The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by A_B »

Johnnie wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:07 pm When I had to call a plumber to get some hardware and swap it out, it was $125. And the small talk we had while he did his job was that of "Not enough people want to be plumbers. I'm in my mid 40s and we've had 1 person, late 30s, apply to work for us in the last few years."

My good friend up in Washington is going to become an electrician because he figured why the hell not. It'll pay well.

Now that I own a home I want to just upgrade everything, but do it myself. Makes me think that after I'm done with the military I'll learn a trade if I get too bored checking IDs at Costco.
I can do probably 85% of the plumbing repairs a house will need over the life of ownership already or with a bit of reasearch (my grandfather was a plumber so I helped him around the house a bit). That last 15% is a doozy, though. And when it comes to the other stuff, I don't have patience, generally. We re-did a bathroom once and I hated how long it took.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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One of our plans was to move to podunk Illinois close to her extended family. We probably wouldn't even have a third of the mortgage we have now and her cousin owns his own a/c company and he already said he'd hire/teach me.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by The Sybian »

Forgot to comment on my main point. I think the Socialist wing of the Dems are shooting themselves in the foot talking about free college. They sound like they are handing out free tuition to anyone who wants it, and the government will pay every university student's tuition at every school. That's utterly insane. What is realistic is offering further subsidized tuition to public universities. People who can't afford or don't want to pay private university tuitions can opt for free or more heavily subsidized private options, and people who can afford it can pay for private universities. Sure, the best schools will be filled with the richest kids, but giving poor kids more of a chance to get a college education is giving them more of a chance to work their way out of poverty.

I've said it before, but New York's SUNY system is ideal. Last I checked, tuition at the 4 major universities was around $9,000 a year. While not an insignificant amount, it's a damned steal compared to private schools. The universities are all great schools, and there are approximately 20 colleges and 30 community colleges in the system. That provides tons of options regardless of what you are looking to study, and there are top-tier programs as well as options for students who barely graduated and did poorly on the SATs. There are a lot of programs for need based scholarships, and programs for students with potential coming from the worst school districts, to help them succeed at the universities.

If education was free, I could see a lot more kids going to college and fucking off. I think a lot of kids need some investment to motivate them, and I also think some kids who are better served going into a trade will go to college instead if it's free. Like others said, becoming a skilled tradesman like an electrician or plumber is a better career path. They can make good money, and not waste 4 years.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian »

Yeah, agreed.

I think we absolutely need to have free community college and trade colleges available to all Americans. The government can and should do more to make four-year public universities cheaper, but I don't think completely free is very realistic for those, but I also don't think it should cost you $40K to get a degree from Central Michigan or SUNY-Whatever.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Are we increasing enrollment or just moving different students around.

And even if public schools are cheaper does it solve employers only hiring from private schools? This might make the skills gap even worse if public schools get more funding, increase enrollment but top jobs still go to the elites.

The solution has to come earlier. Liw cost 2 year tech/trade schools or even an extra year of high school concentrating on trades.
Last edited by degenerasian on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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brian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:44 pm Yeah, agreed.

I think we absolutely need to have free community college and trade colleges available to all Americans. The government can and should do more to make four-year public universities cheaper, but I don't think completely free is very realistic for those, but I also don't think it should cost you $40K to get a degree from Central Michigan or SUNY-Whatever.
I think a fundamental difference between Conservatives and Liberals when it comes to spending, is Conservatives look at the short-term "why should I have to pay for someone else's college," while Liberals view the long-term of paying now for increased benefits in the future, not to mention, a better educated population is going to have less crime and less need for spending on welfare and other social safety net programs down the road. Conservatives push the idea that welfare encourages people not to work and gets them addicted to living on the dole. I believe that most people on welfare would choose an education and earning a living wage over scraping by on the crumbs welfare provides. Yes, some people will always scam the system and collect welfare, but I think the overwhelming majority would choose to work if they could.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:55 pm Are we increasing enrollment or just moving different students around.

And even if public schools are cheaper does it solve employers only hiring from private schools? This might make the skills gap even worse if public schools get more funding, increase enrollment but top jobs still go to the elites.
I don't think this is a problem, as there are a lot of top notch public universities, and nobody discriminates against hiring graduates from those schools. Maybe the bottom tier schools have that issue, but I don't think they are any worse than similarly ranked private universities. Nobody is hiring a graduate from a shitty, expensive university because they paid more for their degree. And there are a ton of shitty universities amongst to worst rated, because a lot of rich kids can't get into good schools, or because the campus is beautiful but the education sucks.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Joe K »

The Sybian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:40 pm Forgot to comment on my main point. I think the Socialist wing of the Dems are shooting themselves in the foot talking about free college. They sound like they are handing out free tuition to anyone who wants it, and the government will pay every university student's tuition at every school. That's utterly insane.
Apart from the details of how it would be implemented, I think politicians like AOC have a coherent strategy here. She has stated — and I largely agree with her on this — that the “swing voters” Dems should target are not GOP—>Dem but rather non-voter—>voter. And I think a big reason people don’t vote is that they don’t think their lives will improve in any meaningful way regardless of who wins. For people like that who feel disillusioned with the entire system, I think bold positions like AOC’s are more likely to get them to vote than the more traditional, technocratic platform of centrist Dems.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by degenerasian »

Welfare and minimum wage is an interesting debate. Yes people don't want to live on crumbs but how does one get out if the loop? I think a $7 minimum wage is a stepping stone for something else. Like a 16 year old getting experience and getting sneaker money.

But as the minimum wage goes up to a proposed $15, it now becomes a career. People won't try to get out.
And will it one day be $20? That's a conservative argument.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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I believe that SUNY schools are "free" for students that are in families making less than a specific amount already.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:01 pm
The Sybian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:40 pm Forgot to comment on my main point. I think the Socialist wing of the Dems are shooting themselves in the foot talking about free college. They sound like they are handing out free tuition to anyone who wants it, and the government will pay every university student's tuition at every school. That's utterly insane.
Apart from the details of how it would be implemented, I think politicians like AOC have a coherent strategy here. She has stated — and I largely agree with her on this — that the “swing voters” Dems should target are not GOP—>Dem but rather non-voter—>voter. And I think a big reason people don’t vote is that they don’t think their lives will improve in any meaningful way regardless of who wins. For people like that who feel disillusioned with the entire system, I think bold positions like AOC’s are more likely to get them to vote than the more traditional, technocratic platform of centrist Dems.
So basically make huge promises that could never be fulfilled. That's not a sustainable model, and exactly what the Right is using to attack them, and I have to agree with the Right on that one. I also hear a lot of Liberals turned off by that specific policy. Maybe you can bring in some naive or pie in the sky voters, but you are hurting the long term success and alienating thoughtful supporters. You probably won't turn centrist Dems to vote for Republicans, but I could see losing swing voters to a moderate Republican against that type of platform.

I do like the idea of pushing farther-Left ideas, so incremental moves Left don't feel like a big deal. The Right is brilliant at that. Talk about shocking, far-Right ideas, and suddenly less severe moves Right don't seem like such a big deal.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Joe K »

degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:02 pm But as the minimum wage goes up to a proposed $15, it now becomes a career. People won't try to get out.
And will it one day be $20? That's a conservative argument.
I don’t buy this at all. $15/hour *might* feel comfortable if you’re single and living in a low cost of living area, but it’d definitely be a challenge to raise a family on that. Also, the idea that people would stop trying to make more money once they get to that level seems completely contrary to human nature. Even people who are already rich often go to great lengths — including criminal ones — to get even richer. And yet, someone making $15/hour will just give up on striving for more?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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The Sybian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:06 pm
Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:01 pm
The Sybian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:40 pm Forgot to comment on my main point. I think the Socialist wing of the Dems are shooting themselves in the foot talking about free college. They sound like they are handing out free tuition to anyone who wants it, and the government will pay every university student's tuition at every school. That's utterly insane.
Apart from the details of how it would be implemented, I think politicians like AOC have a coherent strategy here. She has stated — and I largely agree with her on this — that the “swing voters” Dems should target are not GOP—>Dem but rather non-voter—>voter. And I think a big reason people don’t vote is that they don’t think their lives will improve in any meaningful way regardless of who wins. For people like that who feel disillusioned with the entire system, I think bold positions like AOC’s are more likely to get them to vote than the more traditional, technocratic platform of centrist Dems.
So basically make huge promises that could never be fulfilled. That's not a sustainable model, and exactly what the Right is using to attack them, and I have to agree with the Right on that one. I also hear a lot of Liberals turned off by that specific policy. Maybe you can bring in some naive or pie in the sky voters, but you are hurting the long term success and alienating thoughtful supporters. You probably won't turn centrist Dems to vote for Republicans, but I could see losing swing voters to a moderate Republican against that type of platform.

I do like the idea of pushing farther-Left ideas, so incremental moves Left don't feel like a big deal. The Right is brilliant at that. Talk about shocking, far-Right ideas, and suddenly less severe moves Right don't seem like such a big deal.
Pretty much everything that the democratic socialists have proposed has already been implemented successfully by many other industrialized democracies. So the premise that these promises “could never be fulfilled” is questionable.

And we’ve seen that even with an unhinged lunatic like Trump as face of the GOP, there hasn’t been any significant defection of GOP voters to the Democratic Party. So shouldn’t the focus be on targeting non-voters instead of theoretically undecided centrists?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:02 pm Welfare and minimum wage is an interesting debate. Yes people don't want to live on crumbs but how does one get out if the loop? I think a $7 minimum wage is a stepping stone for something else. Like a 16 year old getting experience and getting sneaker money.

But as the minimum wage goes up to a proposed $15, it now becomes a career. People won't try to get out.
And will it one day be $20? That's a conservative argument.
Nationally, $15 minimum wage is a career. In the bigger cities implementing $15 minimum wages, it's still not close to a career salary. Try living on $31,000 in New York or Seattle and tell me it's a comfortable career salary. I think that is part of the problem, blue collar workers in a low cost area hears $15 minimum wage, and it sounds like a lot of money.

I do agree with the argument that making a livable minimum wage hurts the chances of high school kids from getting jobs. You can't have a separate minimum wage for teens doing the same job as an adult, but a HS kid looking to make a few bucks at McDonald's doesn't need the motivation of a living wage, they will be happy with the $7/hour. Not sure how to resolve that issue.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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The Sybian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:14 pm
degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:02 pm Welfare and minimum wage is an interesting debate. Yes people don't want to live on crumbs but how does one get out if the loop? I think a $7 minimum wage is a stepping stone for something else. Like a 16 year old getting experience and getting sneaker money.

But as the minimum wage goes up to a proposed $15, it now becomes a career. People won't try to get out.
And will it one day be $20? That's a conservative argument.
Nationally, $15 minimum wage is a career. In the bigger cities implementing $15 minimum wages, it's still not close to a career salary. Try living on $31,000 in New York or Seattle and tell me it's a comfortable career salary. I think that is part of the problem, blue collar workers in a low cost area hears $15 minimum wage, and it sounds like a lot of money.

I do agree with the argument that making a livable minimum wage hurts the chances of high school kids from getting jobs. You can't have a separate minimum wage for teens doing the same job as an adult, but a HS kid looking to make a few bucks at McDonald's doesn't need the motivation of a living wage, they will be happy with the $7/hour. Not sure how to resolve that issue.
It also reduces the number of jobs. Instead of two kids working at McDonalds at $7, there is one middle aged guy at $15.
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Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:09 pm
degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:02 pm But as the minimum wage goes up to a proposed $15, it now becomes a career. People won't try to get out.
And will it one day be $20? That's a conservative argument.
I don’t buy this at all. $15/hour *might* feel comfortable if you’re single and living in a low cost of living area, but it’d definitely be a challenge to raise a family on that. Also, the idea that people would stop trying to make more money once they get to that level seems completely contrary to human nature. Even people who are already rich often go to great lengths — including criminal ones — to get even richer. And yet, someone making $15/hour will just give up on striving for more?
If the argument from conservatives mentioned above is that welfare recipients dont try then people working at $15 will be giddy and really not try.
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degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:20 pm
Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:09 pm
degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:02 pm But as the minimum wage goes up to a proposed $15, it now becomes a career. People won't try to get out.
And will it one day be $20? That's a conservative argument.
I don’t buy this at all. $15/hour *might* feel comfortable if you’re single and living in a low cost of living area, but it’d definitely be a challenge to raise a family on that. Also, the idea that people would stop trying to make more money once they get to that level seems completely contrary to human nature. Even people who are already rich often go to great lengths — including criminal ones — to get even richer. And yet, someone making $15/hour will just give up on striving for more?
If the argument from conservatives mentioned above is that welfare recipients dont try then people working at $15 will be giddy and really not try.
I like how the conservative position is that we need to pass trillion dollar tax cuts to inventivize people who are already millionaires to be more productive but if we guarantee the working poor $30K/year they’ll just get lazy.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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I know! Trickle down!
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Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:37 pm
degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:20 pm
Joe K wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:09 pm
degenerasian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:02 pm But as the minimum wage goes up to a proposed $15, it now becomes a career. People won't try to get out.
And will it one day be $20? That's a conservative argument.
I don’t buy this at all. $15/hour *might* feel comfortable if you’re single and living in a low cost of living area, but it’d definitely be a challenge to raise a family on that. Also, the idea that people would stop trying to make more money once they get to that level seems completely contrary to human nature. Even people who are already rich often go to great lengths — including criminal ones — to get even richer. And yet, someone making $15/hour will just give up on striving for more?
If the argument from conservatives mentioned above is that welfare recipients dont try then people working at $15 will be giddy and really not try.
I like how the conservative position is that we need to pass trillion dollar tax cuts to inventivize people who are already millionaires to be more productive but if we guarantee the working poor $30K/year they’ll just get lazy.
But they are JOB CREATORS!
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie »

I started working for $6 an hour in Massachusetts in 1998. Minimum wage was $5.25 then. Minimum wage is now $11.

In 1998, this was the list of richest people in the world. Take note of how many Americans you see.

This is the current list of only richest Americans now.

America's GDP in 1998 was around $9 Trillion. America's GDP is, as of 2016, $18.6 Trillion.

America's population in 1998 was 275 million. It's currently 325 million.

America's neverending war started in 2001 - when AOC was 10 years old. And really, we've had military operations in various forms forever, but that's just extra info.

Maybe getting people to believe we cannot afford things is one thing, but we absolutely can. And using the strategy of free college and a $15 minimum wage seems unattainable, but it is. However, moving the overton window is exactly what needs to be done in this situation because as long as you can pound and pound being at war indefinitely in a foreign land versus caring about Americans, that's the point.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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The Sybian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:40 pm Forgot to comment on my main point. I think the Socialist wing of the Dems are shooting themselves in the foot talking about free college. They sound like they are handing out free tuition to anyone who wants it, and the government will pay every university student's tuition at every school. That's utterly insane.
Correct...this is why it's so hard for Democrats or liberal candidates make significant enough gains to flip voters or flip a district.
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If you'll net more voters calling it free tuition than you would by explaining it in far more detail, you call it free tuition.
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What a fucking loser.

Appropriate response:



I'm gonna look forward to this season for this charade alone.
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It is very hard to express what a threat this is to Canada. Kill the Auto Pact, our economy takes a massive hit.

it is unbelievable that this rectum treats America's allies like shit on the heel of his shoe yet basically blows Putin.
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Maybe we should just make our own cars. The Frog.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

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mister d wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:09 pm If you'll net more voters calling it free tuition than you would by explaining it in far more detail, you call it free tuition.
Maybe, but I don't think it nets more votes. I'm all for the Dems improving messages to short slogans. I think Trump won because of catchy slogans that meant nothing, but people could assign whatever they believed to Trump's slogan. MAGA, drain the Swamp, big, beautiful wall, we'll start winning again... Meanwhile, Hillary gave extremely detailed plans and then at the debate told us to read her 50 page white paper detailing her plans on her website, while Trump won with, "we will win so much, you'll be sick of winning," "I'm like, really smart," and "I am the only one who can fix this."
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Post by Joe K »

The Sybian wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:30 pm
mister d wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:09 pm If you'll net more voters calling it free tuition than you would by explaining it in far more detail, you call it free tuition.
Maybe, but I don't think it nets more votes. I'm all for the Dems improving messages to short slogans. I think Trump won because of catchy slogans that meant nothing, but people could assign whatever they believed to Trump's slogan. MAGA, drain the Swamp, big, beautiful wall, we'll start winning again... Meanwhile, Hillary gave extremely detailed plans and then at the debate told us to read her 50 page white paper detailing her plans on her website, while Trump won with, "we will win so much, you'll be sick of winning," "I'm like, really smart," and "I am the only one who can fix this."
I don’t think “read my 50 page white paper” works because — fair or not — voters are turned off if they think you’re offering complicated, technocratic solutions. For all of her in-depth policy knowledge, Hillary never was able to give a concise or memorable articulation of her driving values and signature issues. Anyone who actually takes the time to read a white paper is probably going to be a politics junkie who virtually always votes for the same party in national elections.

In contrast, policies like “raise the minimum wage,” “free college tuition” and “Medicare for All” are very easy to understand and would have an immediate and concrete benefit to a ton of Americans. They are a lot easier to message than centrist Democratic approaches like “let’s give taxes and subsidies to certain classes of employers” or “let’s subsidize some but not all college students” or “let’s adjust the ACA subsidies while keeping as many people as possible in the private insurance market.”
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie »

Every long email without a TL;DR or, the military version, BLUF (bottom line up front) pisses you off, right?

Same principle.
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Better (12 months) late than never?

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Pruitt wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:16 pm Better (12 months) late than never?

There is no way Trump wrote that. Someone took his phone.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Moreta »

Still the not-so-subtle nod to “all types of racism” though. Maybe Stephen Miller wrote it.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Joe K »

Very healthy political culture we have here:



This is all delusional thinking but you gotta be a special kind of warped to think that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions would join in a Democratic Party conspiracy.
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EnochRoot
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by EnochRoot »

Moreta wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:06 pm Still the not-so-subtle nod to “all types of racism” though. Maybe Stephen Miller wrote it.
Yeah FOH with giving Trump *any* credit for using his dog whistle.
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Baloney
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Baloney »

Rush2112 wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:41 am I wonder how "free" tuition would affect recruitment to blue collar jobs. Even now there are a lot of skilled blue collar jobs that are for some reason really hard to recruit for. Have a buddy that owns an electrical construction company that he's paying for people to get certified because there aren't enough electricians to do all the work he has contracted for.
Try finding a good electrical estimator, or mechanical estimator come to that
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Giff
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Giff »

I get way too excited and then way too disappointed everytime this thread is bumped.
well this is gonna be someone's new signature - bronto
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie »

Moreta wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:06 pm Still the not-so-subtle nod to “all types of racism” though. Maybe Stephen Miller wrote it.
King Incel's Uncle has some stuff to say about him.

Stephen Miller Is an Immigration Hypocrite. I Know Because I’m His Uncle.

Dude looks like a young Montgomery Burns.

Also, Strzok was fired on Friday.
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Pruitt
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt »

Johnnie wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:31 pm
Moreta wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:06 pm Still the not-so-subtle nod to “all types of racism” though. Maybe Stephen Miller wrote it.
King Incel's Uncle has some stuff to say about him.

Stephen Miller Is an Immigration Hypocrite. I Know Because I’m His Uncle.
Wow. That gave me chills.

Seeing a Jew like Miller (or like some of my neighbours and cousins) spouting anti-immigration rhetoric makes my fucking blood boil. There's a reason why our families left the shitholes of eastern Europe. Fuck Stephen Miller.
while my nephew, Stephen, was famously recovering from the hardships of his high school cafeteria in Santa Monica, Joseph was a child on his own in Sudan in fear of being deported back to Eritrea to face execution for desertion.
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rass
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by rass »

"that dog"
I felt aswirl with warm secretions.
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Pruitt
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt »

rass wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:37 am "that dog"
Just came to post this...



Buddy is particularly unhinged this morning.
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mister d
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by mister d »

Its probably an auto-correct setting they've put on his phone.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
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