The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:22 pm

So, so, so excited!!!
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:25 pm

brian wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:20 pm
Huge grain of salt and all that, but if you think there's a chance in hell Omarosa might have saved anything good up to now (I don't), then Trump's day might get even worse:

I absolutely think she has more stored away.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:26 pm

It seriously feels like Stone Cold Steve Austin just gave a stunner to everyfuckingbody today. There's also this:

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:28 pm

I think if it was anything good it would be in the book, but I admit it it's smart to hold stuff back for the "promotional tour". My criticisms of Omarosa don't include being a bad self-promoter, so go girl and the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

Today is the day I've been looking forward to for a long time. It doesn't change anything in the short run and it doesn't mean Trump's going to jail or getting indicted or even that there's a chance in hell he'll be impeached, but today will be a day noted in future history books.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:39 pm

BTW, the reason Cohen (or the prosecutor) didn't name Trump is because the DoJ has guidelines to not name someone in a plea or charging procedure by name if they aren't charged with said crime.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Brontoburglar » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:10 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:39 pm
BTW, the reason Cohen (or the prosecutor) didn't name Trump is because the DoJ has guidelines to not name someone in a plea or charging procedure by name if they aren't charged with said crime.
no, he wasn't named because he wasn't involved

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Moreta » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:56 pm



There’s always a tweet. Courtesy of Vox, who dug it up.

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:01 pm

Moreta wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:56 pm


There’s always a tweet. Courtesy of Vox, who dug it up.
Wow.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:22 pm

Damn! That West Virginia Governor is a freak.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by mister d » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:50 pm

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Ha. If it weren't for the walking tour starting so quickly we were gonna hit that up. Is it good?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by GoodKarma » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:22 pm

brian wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:20 pm
Huge grain of salt and all that, but if you think there's a chance in hell Omarosa might have saved anything good up to now (I don't), then Trump's day might get even worse:

She's just mad she got bumped from the news cycle...anything to hold onto the limelight.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by degenerasian » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:46 pm

Trump is draining the swamp. Maybe not quite how he planned it.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by The Sybian » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:00 pm

Our friend, Paulie Manacles... you won't be seein' him around no more.


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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Rush2112 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:19 pm

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by EnochRoot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:24 pm

Every freakin time.

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:10 pm

Uh, I'm no law expert, but I don't think my lawyer should say this on television.

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 pm

I mean if you want to get down to it there’s stuff happening on a level we’re not prepared to deal with that will only be made clear with time. It’s all happening too fast. This is a sister year to 1968 in a lot of respects without as many assassinations.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by mister d » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:20 pm

What happened today won’t affect Trump and won’t affect our current government sarcasm-quotes leadership one bit.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by EnochRoot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:31 pm

mister d wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:20 pm
What happened today won’t affect Trump and won’t affect our current government sarcasm-quotes leadership one bit.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:39 pm

Yeah I was watching Fox News earlier and even they were forced to admit there’s something to all of this. Maybe not Hannity or that ilk but this afternoon it was all how bad this is for Trump and how he looks guilty as fuck (which of course he is).
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by The Sybian » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:10 am

brian wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:39 pm
Yeah I was watching Fox News earlier and even they were forced to admit there’s something to all of this. Maybe not Hannity or that ilk but this afternoon it was all how bad this is for Trump and how he looks guilty as fuck (which of course he is).


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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Nonlinear FC » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:07 am

brian wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:39 pm
Yeah I was watching Fox News earlier and even they were forced to admit there’s something to all of this. Maybe not Hannity or that ilk but this afternoon it was all how bad this is for Trump and how he looks guilty as fuck (which of course he is).
I mean, they still had the legal expert guy saying "what about Russia, I don't hear anything about Russia in all of this"... But overall, I watched about an hour of coverage on Fox and it was pretty straight forward and grim.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:56 am

Lol.

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by DaveInSeattle » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:47 am

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:07 am
brian wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:39 pm
Yeah I was watching Fox News earlier and even they were forced to admit there’s something to all of this. Maybe not Hannity or that ilk but this afternoon it was all how bad this is for Trump and how he looks guilty as fuck (which of course he is).
I mean, they still had the legal expert guy saying "what about Russia, I don't hear anything about Russia in all of this"... But overall, I watched about an hour of coverage on Fox and it was pretty straight forward and grim.
I turned to the 'ConservativeTalk' radio station going to the grocery store, just to hear what the whack-job Mark Levin was saying. His take? Cohen's statement doesn't count, because 'He pled guilty! The prosecutors didn't have to prove anything!' and that because his attorney is Lanny Davis, who is a Clinton supporter, clearly Cohen was coerced into making those statements.

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by The Sybian » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:55 am

DaveInSeattle wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:47 am
Nonlinear FC wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:07 am
brian wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:39 pm
Yeah I was watching Fox News earlier and even they were forced to admit there’s something to all of this. Maybe not Hannity or that ilk but this afternoon it was all how bad this is for Trump and how he looks guilty as fuck (which of course he is).
I mean, they still had the legal expert guy saying "what about Russia, I don't hear anything about Russia in all of this"... But overall, I watched about an hour of coverage on Fox and it was pretty straight forward and grim.
I turned to the 'ConservativeTalk' radio station going to the grocery store, just to hear what the whack-job Mark Levin was saying. His take? Cohen's statement doesn't count, because 'He pled guilty! The prosecutors didn't have to prove anything!' and that because his attorney is Lanny Davis, who is a Clinton supporter, clearly Cohen was coerced into making those statements.
Funny how they leave out the fact that the prosecutors had to submit that they have evidence substantiating all of Cohen's admissions. RW media always argues that Trump's former staffers will make up lies against Trump to get out of their own legal trouble, but they never mention that prosecutors need to prove the allegations are substantiated before the grant immunity, accept a plea deal or drop charges. If you take half a second to think about it, what good does a false allegation do for prosecutors or Mueller?
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:50 pm

Seeing the latest talking point from Trumpkins is that since Trump paid off Daniels with his own money and not campaign money then it wasn't a crime (and he admitted as much on freaking Fox in an interview airing tomorrow) but the lawdogs I tend to trust on Twitter think he actually dug his hole even deeper by admitting to a payment at all.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Nonlinear FC » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:08 pm

Any of our law-crew know if the tape of Cohen discussing a payment with one of the two women BEFORE it happened is admissible or not?

If nothing else, that tape is a real big problem in the court of public opinion.

Fucking moron.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by DaveInSeattle » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:08 pm

I heard legal genius Ben Shapiro saying today that since this happened BEFORE Trump was President, it shouldn't be an impeachable offense.

Also, besides...its Campaign Finance laws! Those are probably unconstitutional anyways!

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Baloney » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:01 pm

Some stories just write themselves


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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by sancarlos » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:37 pm

Maybe you guys already knew this, but I just learned it and It bums me out. Mueller has already said he won't indict the sitting president, regardless of what is uncovered. He is going to leave it up to Congress, and we know they won't do it.
Washington Post" wrote:Let’s put aside whether any prosecutor would try to indict someone because of a “he said/he said” disagreement about what happened in a private conversation. The fact is that we already know that Mueller is not going to indict Trump.

How do we know that? Because Trump’s own lawyers, including Giuliani, told us so three months ago:

The special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, will not indict President Trump if he finds wrongdoing in his investigation of Trump campaign links to Russia, according to the president’s lawyers. They said Wednesday that Mr. Mueller’s investigators told them that he would adhere to the Justice Department’s view that the Constitution bars prosecuting sitting presidents.

According to that account, which has not been disputed, Mueller has essentially decided to leave Trump’s fate up to the political process. Mueller won’t indict Trump, but he’ll likely lay out whatever evidence he finds of Trump’s wrongdoing (and that of everyone else he has investigated) in some kind of final report. If Congress finds that it warrants impeachment, it’ll be up to Congress to take that step.

That is where we come back to what Trump is really afraid will happen if he answers Mueller’s questions. His lawyers have certainly seen what has happened when Trump has been deposed before, and the results weren’t pretty. In one case, he was forced 30 separate times to admit lies he had told. In another deposition, regarding the fraud lawsuit over Trump University, Trump claimed to be unable to remember so many specific things that the opposing lawyer eventually asked him whether he remembered saying he has one of the world’s best memories. Trump said he couldn’t remember saying that. (In fact, he had.)

Though Trump might well commit perjury if forced to answer Mueller’s questions, he won’t face prosecution for it. But everyone would see him desperately distract, deflect and dissemble in answer to questions about Russia and obstruction of justice. And it isn’t just the content of specific lies he might tell. Facing an informed interrogator able to ask follow-up questions, he would also almost certainly wind up looking evasive, self-contradictory, disingenuous — in a word, guilty.

That’s the real danger that Trump faces: not legal danger, but political danger. An interview with Mueller might not make impeachment and removal from office more likely (he has a firewall of Republican support in Congress to prevent that), but it will almost certainly make a defeat in 2020 more likely.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:02 pm

A few points:

1) Believe it or not, it's probably a good policy since it's possible for a bad actor in another jurisdiction to potentially use it as a legitimate witch hunt against a legitimately innocent president. (Imagine the state of Texas for example trying to bring Obama up on some bullshit charge of inciting a riot or something).

2) Assume that Mueller does bring charges in federal court. What kind of a circus is that trial going to look like and how is it going to be possible for a president to get a fair trial or even to get a jury seated? Impeachment, like it or not, is essentially the tool the founding fathers had in mind for removing a president who commits a crime, but they probably never expected such a hyper-partisan environment.

3) Assume Trump actually does get impeached and is convicted in the Senate and removed from office. Now Mike Pence is president and guess what, 95 percent of the problems in this country are either exactly the same or possibly even worse.

So long story short, I don't worry about that too much. Having a president who remains in office for crimes he should have been charged for and/or impeached for is not the worst thing in the world. It should hopefully drive voter turnout this November and come November 2020.

ETA: Bonus point! It doesn't preclude him from being indicted after he's out of office and can no longer pardon himself which is the possible/likely result of any federal charges Mueller could bring anyway. So in a way, that is really the best possible scenario. A whole metric fuckton of charges on January 21, 2021.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by The Sybian » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:54 pm

brian wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:02 pm
A few points:

1) Believe it or not, it's probably a good policy since it's possible for a bad actor in another jurisdiction to potentially use it as a legitimate witch hunt against a legitimately innocent president. (Imagine the state of Texas for example trying to bring Obama up on some bullshit charge of inciting a riot or something).

2) Assume that Mueller does bring charges in federal court. What kind of a circus is that trial going to look like and how is it going to be possible for a president to get a fair trial or even to get a jury seated? Impeachment, like it or not, is essentially the tool the founding fathers had in mind for removing a president who commits a crime, but they probably never expected such a hyper-partisan environment.

3) Assume Trump actually does get impeached and is convicted in the Senate and removed from office. Now Mike Pence is president and guess what, 95 percent of the problems in this country are either exactly the same or possibly even worse.

So long story short, I don't worry about that too much. Having a president who remains in office for crimes he should have been charged for and/or impeached for is not the worst thing in the world. It should hopefully drive voter turnout this November and come November 2020.

ETA: Bonus point! It doesn't preclude him from being indicted after he's out of office and can no longer pardon himself which is the possible/likely result of any federal charges Mueller could bring anyway. So in a way, that is really the best possible scenario. A whole metric fuckton of charges on January 21, 2021.
I agree on point 1, while we all want to see Trump brought to justice, it's easy to imagine the current GOP Congress appointing a Special Counsel against President Hillary for jaywalking. And point 2, if Mueller tried to prosecute Trump, all hell would break loose, and 35% of the country would truly believe it was an evil Democrat plot to overthrow Trump and prison a political enemy (while non-ironically chanting "Locker Her Up").

The more interesting route is all of the side trials coming out of Mueller's investigation. Beyond Cohen and Manafort, we have the NY AG going after the Trump Foundation for numerous counts of fraud, and that could criminally implicate his 3 kids, and potentially Trump. There are numerous criminal charges Trump could face in New York State, and he can't pardon state crimes. Speaking of pardons, Trump might be able to pre-pardon himself and his family for crimes they have not yet been charged with, and I don't put that past Trump to attempt to do that.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by brian » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:18 pm

You're obviously more of an expert on law than me, but I would assume the "pre-pardon" scenario would probably end up winding its way to the Supreme Court and even with a conservative court by that time Trump will be out of office and the Supremes, even the ones appointed by Trump aren't probably going to be willing to eat his shit at the expense of the Republic then (I'm assuming a Democratic president is probably in office at this point as well, which would be another factor in them likely shutting down that possibility since it would probably be pretty obvious at that point how something like that could be abused by members of both parties. Roberts, to his credit, would probably have none of that bullshit.)
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by The Sybian » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:03 pm

brian wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:18 pm
You're obviously more of an expert on law than me, but I would assume the "pre-pardon" scenario would probably end up winding its way to the Supreme Court and even with a conservative court by that time Trump will be out of office and the Supremes, even the ones appointed by Trump aren't probably going to be willing to eat his shit at the expense of the Republic then (I'm assuming a Democratic president is probably in office at this point as well, which would be another factor in them likely shutting down that possibility since it would probably be pretty obvious at that point how something like that could be abused by members of both parties. Roberts, to his credit, would probably have none of that bullshit.)
I'm certainly not an expert on Presidential self-pardoning, but I think your take is the likely outcome. From what I've seen, there is very little to make this legal determination, so the Court would have to basically make it up, and who the fuck knows where the current band of jackals would go. Trump won't hesitate to abuse the pardon power for himself, family or friends, no matter how ridiculous or Unconstitutional it might be.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:19 pm

I keep reading that Manafort selected Pence. If Trump goes, hopefully he'd go too. And hopefully that is after the Democrats take the House because it means President Pelosi. Which I don't care much for, but seeing Republicans heads explode would be worth it.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Rush2112 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:48 pm

Johnnie wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:19 pm
I keep reading that Manafort selected Pence. If Trump goes, hopefully he'd go too. And hopefully that is after the Democrats take the House because it means President Pelosi. Which I don't care much for, but seeing Republicans heads explode would be worth it.
I saw mention of this as well. Was it something in the hacked texts from the daughter or something? I read it last night after more than a couple beers.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Johnnie » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:38 pm

Google sent me to a Newsweek article that referenced this NY Times article from July 2016.

It has this section:
In a phone call with members of the campaign leadership, Mr. Trump questioned whether Mr. Pence really was the right choice, and Paul Manafort, the campaign chairman, reiterated the case for choosing Mr. Pence, according to a person briefed on the call.

Reached by phone on Friday, Mr. Manafort said Mr. Trump had never wavered on Mr. Pence once the decision was made. Any queries about Mr. Pence as a political choice, he added, simply reflected Mr. Trump’s loose conversational style.
Just sounds like staunch endorsement and not necessarily "hand picked." So yeah, maybe Pence becomes the president and things get worse. Honestly, why the Republicans are hanging on to Trump at this point and not turning their back on him is beyond me. Unless there's this absolutely true pipeline of Russian money through the NRA and all are implicated, then I don't get it.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by sancarlos » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:49 pm

"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian

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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Pruitt » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:57 am

Wouldn't start dancing in the streets just yet. The piece that the above twitter post linked to is basically a sensational headline attached to nothing of any substance whatsoever.
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Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Post by Joe K » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:07 am

Johnnie wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:19 pm
I keep reading that Manafort selected Pence. If Trump goes, hopefully he'd go too. And hopefully that is after the Democrats take the House because it means President Pelosi. Which I don't care much for, but seeing Republicans heads explode would be worth it.
Any scenario that ends up with a Democratic President before 2021 is pure fantasy. Even if both Trump and Pence were in trouble, all the GOP needs to do is stagger the timing of their resignations to keep control of the White House. After the way they blocked Merrick Garland, they sure as shit aren’t going to let the fallout of any scandals result in Pelosi (or any other Dem) succeeding to the Presidency.

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