The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:59 am

I just went on Pacer (public access to federal court filings). The complaint against Papadopoulos was filed back on July 28. Right about the time that Manafort's apartment was raided. I don't know what exactly that means ...

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:05 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:I just went on Pacer (public access to federal court filings). The complaint against Papadopoulos was filed back on July 28. Right about the time that Manafort's apartment was raided. I don't know what exactly that means ...

He was arrested at Dulles one day after the Manafort raid...and the complaint filed one day later. Dayum.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:07 am

Did someone say Papadopoulos?

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:10 am

Giff wrote:Did someone say Papadopoulos?

Holy shit, didn't make the connection.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:17 am

Just because it's low hanging fruit to sometimes remind ourselves of just how shitty Trump and his operation are:

Manafort is part of a growing body of evidence that Trump and his people are fucking morons / corrupt pieces of shit. A simple Google search in the spring of 2016 would show Manafort mired in a number of very suspect financial deals. Whether or not it was known at the time that the FBI was working a case, a simple background check would produce a host of issues pertaining to Cyprus and Ukraine.

Just this to the pile of truly awful humans Trump has put in charge, or attempted to put in charge of things they had no business being involved with over the last 10 months.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:21 am

Nonlinear FC wrote:Just because it's low hanging fruit to sometimes remind ourselves of just how shitty Trump and his operation are:

Manafort is part of a growing body of evidence that Trump and his people are fucking morons / corrupt pieces of shit. A simple Google search in the spring of 2016 would show Manafort mired in a number of very suspect financial deals. Whether or not it was known at the time that the FBI was working a case, a simple background check would produce a host of issues pertaining to Cyprus and Ukraine.

Just this to the pile of truly awful humans Trump has put in charge, or attempted to put in charge of things they had no business being involved with over the last 10 months.

Shitty and really fucking stupid. Papadopoulos used private Facebook messaging to communicate with his Russian contacts in July and October 2016. The day after his second FBI interview, he deleted that account and opened a new one. And got a new cell phone. So the Feds got a warrant and obtained access to his deleted Facebook account.

(This is in the Affidavit in Support of Criminal Complaint filed on July 28.)

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:40 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:Just because it's low hanging fruit to sometimes remind ourselves of just how shitty Trump and his operation are:

Manafort is part of a growing body of evidence that Trump and his people are fucking morons / corrupt pieces of shit. A simple Google search in the spring of 2016 would show Manafort mired in a number of very suspect financial deals. Whether or not it was known at the time that the FBI was working a case, a simple background check would produce a host of issues pertaining to Cyprus and Ukraine.

Just this to the pile of truly awful humans Trump has put in charge, or attempted to put in charge of things they had no business being involved with over the last 10 months.

Shitty and really fucking stupid. Papadopoulos used private Facebook messaging to communicate with his Russian contacts in July and October 2016. The day after his second FBI interview, he deleted that account and opened a new one. And got a new cell phone. So the Feds got a warrant and obtained access to his deleted Facebook account.

(This is in the Affidavit in Support of Criminal Complaint filed on July 28.)

But in most cases, they don't put the touchdown up until after the XP because it happens almost instantaneously on the graphic. So they know the score, they're just changing it twice.

rass · Post by **rass** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:42 am

A_B wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:Just because it's low hanging fruit to sometimes remind ourselves of just how shitty Trump and his operation are:

Manafort is part of a growing body of evidence that Trump and his people are fucking morons / corrupt pieces of shit. A simple Google search in the spring of 2016 would show Manafort mired in a number of very suspect financial deals. Whether or not it was known at the time that the FBI was working a case, a simple background check would produce a host of issues pertaining to Cyprus and Ukraine.

Just this to the pile of truly awful humans Trump has put in charge, or attempted to put in charge of things they had no business being involved with over the last 10 months.

Shitty and really fucking stupid. Papadopoulos used private Facebook messaging to communicate with his Russian contacts in July and October 2016. The day after his second FBI interview, he deleted that account and opened a new one. And got a new cell phone. So the Feds got a warrant and obtained access to his deleted Facebook account.

(This is in the Affidavit in Support of Criminal Complaint filed on July 28.)

But in most cases, they don't put the touchdown up until after the XP because it happens almost instantaneously on the graphic. So they know the score, they're just changing it twice.

Do you think Mueller has a TD celebration choreographed?

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:45 am

A_B wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:Just because it's low hanging fruit to sometimes remind ourselves of just how shitty Trump and his operation are:

Manafort is part of a growing body of evidence that Trump and his people are fucking morons / corrupt pieces of shit. A simple Google search in the spring of 2016 would show Manafort mired in a number of very suspect financial deals. Whether or not it was known at the time that the FBI was working a case, a simple background check would produce a host of issues pertaining to Cyprus and Ukraine.

Just this to the pile of truly awful humans Trump has put in charge, or attempted to put in charge of things they had no business being involved with over the last 10 months.

Shitty and really fucking stupid. Papadopoulos used private Facebook messaging to communicate with his Russian contacts in July and October 2016. The day after his second FBI interview, he deleted that account and opened a new one. And got a new cell phone. So the Feds got a warrant and obtained access to his deleted Facebook account.

(This is in the Affidavit in Support of Criminal Complaint filed on July 28.)

But in most cases, they don't put the touchdown up until after the XP because it happens almost instantaneously on the graphic. So they know the score, they're just changing it twice.

They know the score. But I, as the viewer, won't know if the new score reflects the XP or not.

Anyway, I think it's clear that Papadopoulos was the touchdown. The Manafort/Gates indictment was the two-point conversion.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:48 am

Genuine tears from laughing at this point:

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/925029460142944258

https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/925027248863883264

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:51 am

rass wrote:
A_B wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:Just because it's low hanging fruit to sometimes remind ourselves of just how shitty Trump and his operation are:

Manafort is part of a growing body of evidence that Trump and his people are fucking morons / corrupt pieces of shit. A simple Google search in the spring of 2016 would show Manafort mired in a number of very suspect financial deals. Whether or not it was known at the time that the FBI was working a case, a simple background check would produce a host of issues pertaining to Cyprus and Ukraine.

Just this to the pile of truly awful humans Trump has put in charge, or attempted to put in charge of things they had no business being involved with over the last 10 months.

Shitty and really fucking stupid. Papadopoulos used private Facebook messaging to communicate with his Russian contacts in July and October 2016. The day after his second FBI interview, he deleted that account and opened a new one. And got a new cell phone. So the Feds got a warrant and obtained access to his deleted Facebook account.

(This is in the Affidavit in Support of Criminal Complaint filed on July 28.)

But in most cases, they don't put the touchdown up until after the XP because it happens almost instantaneously on the graphic. So they know the score, they're just changing it twice.

Do you think Mueller has a TD celebration choreographed?

Wjhat the hell? I don't know how I fucked that up so badly.

duff · Post by **duff** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:55 am

A_B wrote:Wjhat the hell? I don't know how I fucked that up so badly.

Return of AB_the_Drunk?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:58 am

A_B wrote:Wjhat the hell? I don't know how I fucked that up so badly.

You should probably delete your account here and throw away your computer, then buy a new computer and open up a new account here.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:09 pm

Also happening:

Court blocks Trump from changing military policy on transgendered personnel.
It's Ivanka's birthday

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:20 pm

tennbengal wrote:Genuine tears from laughing at this point:

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/925029460142944258

https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/925027248863883264

Oh. Shit.

:clapping hands emoji:

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:21 pm

mister d wrote:
A_B wrote:Wjhat the hell? I don't know how I fucked that up so badly.

You should probably delete your account here and throw away your computer, then buy a new computer and open up a new account here.

You rascal.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:24 pm

mister d wrote:
A_B wrote:Wjhat the hell? I don't know how I fucked that up so badly.

You should probably delete your account here and throw away your computer, then buy a new computer and open up a new account here.

Or to be safe, we should just delete the entire Swamp and start over.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:30 pm

So, dude flipped and wore a wire? Whoa.

And help me out with the parameters of pardoning, but if Trump pardons Manafort doesn't that mean Manafort *has to* tell the truth under oath because he doesn't have 5th amendment protection since he can no longer go to jail? Or something?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:40 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
mister d wrote:
A_B wrote:Wjhat the hell? I don't know how I fucked that up so badly.

You should probably delete your account here and throw away your computer, then buy a new computer and open up a new account here.

Or to be safe, we should just delete the entire Swamp and start over.

Let me see if I still I the URL for Swamp2.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:44 pm

Johnny Carwash wrote:
Giff wrote:Did someone say Papadopoulos?

Holy shit, didn't make the connection.

Bro!

govmentchedda wrote:
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/samstein/status/925003784555847680

In a reply to that original tweet, "I'm hoping they don't charge ma'am too".

So good.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:47 pm

Johnnie wrote:So, dude flipped and wore a wire? Whoa.

And help me out with the parameters of pardoning, but if Trump pardons Manafort doesn't that mean Manafort *has to* tell the truth under oath because he doesn't have 5th amendment protection since he can no longer go to jail? Or something?

We're speculating that he wore a wire.

But on your second point, yes. If Manafort is immune from prosecution, either from a pardon or an immunity agreement, then he has no right against self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment. At that point he can be compelled to answer questions and if he answers untruthfully he would face new charges for obstruction of justice or perjury.

The presence of the possible state charges complicates things. Just as Trump can't pardon Manafort for state law crimes, also Mueller cannot immunize Manafort against state law crimes. But I would assume that if Manafort is ready to flip, the NY AG would also join in any immunity agreement.

This immunity issue is one reason why the indictment may not say anything about Manafort's actions in connection with the Trump campaign. They can grant Manafort blanket immunity for any crimes not charged in the indictment.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:49 pm

Johnnie wrote:So, dude flipped and wore a wire? Whoa.

And help me out with the parameters of pardoning, but if Trump pardons Manafort doesn't that mean Manafort *has to* tell the truth under oath because he doesn't have 5th amendment protection since he can no longer go to jail? Or something?

It was leaked a while back that Trump's attorneys were asking questions about preemptive pardons for lying under oath and obstructing justice for this reason.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:51 pm

I think it means, at the very least, that he has provided information about possible crimes/bad things that the feds did not previously know about.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:56 pm

degenerasian wrote:
The Sybian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.

Really? The entire point of going after Manafort is to get him to provide evidence against Trump in exchange for a lighter sentence. If Trump pardon's Manafort, he doesn't need to give any evidence against Trump. Trump isn't going to pardon Manafort to help a friend, he is going to want to pardon Manafort to save his own ass! There are dozens of targets who have info that could sink Trump. Trump needs them all to believe that they don't need to give dirt on Trump to save their own asses. Of course he would pardon everyone if he could.

Trump pardoning his conspirators is the only thing saving his own ass, This is why Mueller brought in State AGs to bring state charges, so Trump can't pardon those charges. Everything hinges on a mechanism to prevent Trump from pardoning everyone, and Congress won't do their fucking job and keep the wannabe despot in check.

You forgot how arrogant Trump is. He always thinks he can save his own ass. And why not, it's gotten him through business and all the way to the Presidency. He thinks he's bullet-proof. Trump will distance and minimize his relationship with Manafort. It will smash a million holes in all his pardon bluster from before and will make anyone who might potentially be facing charges realize that unless your name is Trump, you're going to be left swinging in the wind. Trump and Manafort did not part amicably. Since Manafort voluntarily surrendered to the FBI, and he has no support from Trump, I'm guessing Muellers going to flip him pretty fast. When Manafort flips, Trump will have a different strategy. FAKE NEWS!

I will NEVER forget how arrogant Trump is. Believe me. Look at his Twitter, Trump is shitting his pants. He knows he isn't bulletproof, that's why he is throwing all this Clinton collusion being the REAL story, and having his toadies like Devin Nunez open Congressional investigations against Hillary.

Trump has a very long history of making everyone around him sign non-disclosure agreements with extremely severe penalties. This is why business former business partners, associates, employees, contractors... don't speak out against Trump when he fucks them over. He puts severe penalties in place if they talk, and he has filed 1000s of lawsuits against people who speak negatively about him. Even if the non-disclosures are unenforceable, Trump will force the other person into paying enormous legal bills most of them can't afford. This is how he destroyed countless small businesses that he hired to do work for him; he refuses to pay, and they can't afford to sue him to get the money he owes them.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:01 pm

Thanks, Swamp lawyer friends. My one constitutional law class was so long ago that I'm having to play catch up.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:05 pm

The Sybian wrote:This is how he destroyed countless small businesses that he hired to do work for him; he refuses to pay, and they can't afford to sue him to get the money he owes them.

Of all the disgusting, infuriating, and horrific things about Trump, this may be the worst to me. This is basically theft, on a large scale, with malice aforethought.

And the people he routinely steals from are the ones who put him in office.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:21 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
The Sybian wrote:This is how he destroyed countless small businesses that he hired to do work for him; he refuses to pay, and they can't afford to sue him to get the money he owes them.

Of all the disgusting, infuriating, and horrific things about Trump, this may be the worst to me. This is basically theft, on a large scale, with malice aforethought.

And the people he routinely steals from are the ones who put him in office.

Exactly!!! And they say he is fighting for the Little Guy, and he will be great for small business owners. He was never a great businessman or deal maker. He started with his father's sizable business, and used that money and control of the NYC real estate and construction market to fuck over smaller businesses. If you could calculate the amount of unpaid debts, which includes billions in unpaid loans, and money he lost, I'm sure it would be more than the money he actually made. He operates much more like a crime syndicate than a legitimate business.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:25 pm

And speaking of that last line ...

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:35 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
The Sybian wrote:This is how he destroyed countless small businesses that he hired to do work for him; he refuses to pay, and they can't afford to sue him to get the money he owes them.

Of all the disgusting, infuriating, and horrific things about Trump, this may be the worst to me. This is basically theft, on a large scale, with malice aforethought.

And the people he routinely steals from are the ones who put him in office.

Exactly!!! And they say he is fighting for the Little Guy, and he will be great for small business owners. He was never a great businessman or deal maker. He started with his father's sizable business, and used that money and control of the NYC real estate and construction market to fuck over smaller businesses. If you could calculate the amount of unpaid debts, which includes billions in unpaid loans, and money he lost, I'm sure it would be more than the money he actually made. He operates much more like a crime syndicate than a legitimate business.

Plus stealing from the folks who signed up for his "university". And from anyone who invested in his public corporation.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:41 pm

This thread could have been called the Schadenfreude Thread, because I am going to enjoy the fuck out of watching Trump's minions take a fall, or dare I dream take him down? At worst, we will see some crooked pieces of shit get destroyed for their work in helping Trump get elected. Even when the crimes preceded working for Trump, they are only being investigated because they worked for Trump.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:43 pm

govmentchedda wrote:
Johnny Carwash wrote:
Giff wrote:Did someone say Papadopoulos?

Holy shit, didn't make the connection.

Bro!

govmentchedda wrote:
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/samstein/status/925003784555847680

In a reply to that original tweet, "I'm hoping they don't charge ma'am too".

So good.

Ooops.

rass · Post by **rass** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:52 pm

The Sybian wrote:This thread could have been called the Schadenfreude Thread, because I am going to enjoy the fuck out of watching Trump's minions take a fall, or dare I dream take him down? At worst, we will see some crooked pieces of shit get destroyed for their work in helping Trump get elected. Even when the crimes preceded working for Trump, they are only being investigated because they worked for Trump.

Way too optimistic. Everything sucks now and we can't have anything nice. You'll see.

rass · Post by **rass** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:52 pm

Giff wrote:
govmentchedda wrote:
Johnny Carwash wrote:
Giff wrote:Did someone say Papadopoulos?

Holy shit, didn't make the connection.

Bro!

govmentchedda wrote:
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/samstein/status/925003784555847680

In a reply to that original tweet, "I'm hoping they don't charge ma'am too".

So good.

Ooops.

Yup. Chedda made the joke first, then came you.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:56 pm

rass wrote:Way too optimistic. Everything sucks now and we can't have anything nice. You'll see.

Yeah, man. I'm taking nothing more than "this is a kinda fun day" out of the whole thing. Expecting anything to go right anymore seems silly.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:09 pm

So, looking at this strategically, from Mueller's vantage point... Kind of just wrapping my head around a few things, bear with me...

* You've got Manafort and Gates with some pretty heavy indictments, but none of them touch on the time after he was hired on to be Trump's campaign manager. (I haven't paid much attention to the Gates counts, so there could be a different circumstance there, but I will for the moment go by the reporting that says the indictments don't mention Trump or the campaign.)

* You've got Papadopoulos, arrested after getting off a plane in July. Apparently, up until he formally pleads guilty on Oct. 5, he has been cooperating fully with the investigation. So, the first question is why does Mueller wait until today to announce this guilty plea? I think we're seeing speculation that amounts to: In order to maximize the Oh Shit factor.

* So, the Oh Shit factor is seen primarily as leverage to push Manafort and/or Gates into flipping. That seems pretty plausible.

* I'd also wager that it was meant to pucker up a bunch of folks, including the president, as to exactly how deep Mueller already is wrt to sources and intimate knowledge of the Russian connection. I'd also SPECULATE that part of the message here is that Papadopoulos is just the first guy that they've arrested in this aspect of things (Russian collusion). And folks like Kushner and that Miller weasel guy are likely shitting their pants.

Because, here's the thing... A lot of these guys are going to be arrested/charged not with colluding with Russia, which I think due to the nature of the shady/illusory contacts with Russian "officials" is going to be damn near impossible to prove. They are going to be arrested and charged with obstruction of justice / lying to the FBI.

And I think this is where Mueller is going with Trump, specifically. I think it's going to take a lot more than what is out there to prove he acted with criminal intent in firing Comey and other actions he took. But that's just because we really haven't heard much, if anything, about what Mueller is looking at there.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:17 pm

On the are there others front:

https://twitter.com/BySteveReilly/statu ... 1870856192

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:25 pm

Let's say there's four more indictments pending...who you got?

I say:

Carter Page
Flynn
Kushner
a senior aid to one of those three

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:29 pm

1. Hillary
2. Obama
3. Rosie O'Donnell
4. Some guy who called Trump a dick at Tavern on the Green in 1982

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:30 pm

Could 'the other campaign official' be Sessions?

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:36 pm

degenerasian wrote:I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.

Unless there is a quid pro quo that benefits Trump?