Page 1 of 88

The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:13 am
by tennbengal
It was the last post on the other thread, but that thread is huge, and perhaps we start fresh with the initial indicments, prelude, I am sure, to Trump firing Mueller, pardoning Manafort and Gates, and Ryan and McConnell doing nothing.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:17 am
by mister d
Yup. I bet he’s already asked if a “pre-pardon” is a thing.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:19 am
by tennbengal
Under what circumstances would Manafort NOT flip? If he knows he's being pardoned. That's it. Otherwise, he should be pre-singing. I know JoeK has always taken exception with my using the word treason, but I still think it applies to this situation. All of them, they who collaborated, they committed treason. Thing is, they are now running the show, so, I guess it's not?

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:23 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:24 am
by tennbengal
Also, this remains relevant. Still wondering who was paid what at the NY Times last October...

https://twitter.com/Rob_Flaherty/status ... 4196179970

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:29 am
by L-Jam3
That's why Mueller included the NY AG. Presidents can only pardon Federal crimes.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:35 am
by tennbengal
L-Jam3 wrote:That's why Mueller included the NY AG. Presidents can only pardon Federal crimes.


Yeah. I keep forgetting that. I wonder if anyone has told Trump that...

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:40 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:41 am
by L-Jam3
tennbengal wrote:
L-Jam3 wrote:That's why Mueller included the NY AG. Presidents can only pardon Federal crimes.


Yeah. I keep forgetting that. I wonder if anyone has told Trump that...


Like he'd listen. Or understand that.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:08 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:11 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:26 am
by tennbengal
So, more like "Make America not really first".

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 am
by brian
Could just be the tip of the iceberg for charges against Manafort as well. There were some statute of limitations issues with some of the financial crimes. Since I can't imagine a rich 68-year-old man wants to spend the rest of his life in federal prison, now the fun starts.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:45 am
by Pruitt
"Conspiracy Against The United States"

Doesn't the death penalty apply for extreme cases?

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:48 am
by brian
Pruitt wrote:"Conspiracy Against The United States"

Doesn't the death penalty apply for extreme cases?


Technically for treason, yes. Though that's not what he was charged with. All jokes aside, TB's Arrested Development vid is pretty accurate. Conspiracy against the United States could be considered "light treason" or as manslaughter as opposed to murder.

That said, I have literally no idea what the possible range of sentences is for that, but I'm guessing it can't be good. The financial crimes alone enough should be enough to ensure he dies in prison if he's convinced.

ETA: And doesn't flip and get leniency, of course.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:53 am
by mister d
tennbengal wrote:So, more like "Make America not really first".


Maintain (Certain) Americans First Always.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:54 am
by Rex
hey Ham Sandwich, you're back in the news!

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:20 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:27 am
by govmentchedda
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/samstein/status/925003784555847680

In a reply to that original tweet, "I'm hoping they don't charge ma'am too".

So good.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:30 am
by Joe K
brian wrote:
Pruitt wrote:"Conspiracy Against The United States"

Doesn't the death penalty apply for extreme cases?


Technically for treason, yes. Though that's not what he was charged with. All jokes aside, TB's Arrested Development vid is pretty accurate. Conspiracy against the United States could be considered "light treason" or as manslaughter as opposed to murder.

That said, I have literally no idea what the possible range of sentences is for that, but I'm guessing it can't be good. The financial crimes alone enough should be enough to ensure he dies in prison if he's convinced.

ETA: And doesn't flip and get leniency, of course.

I haven't read the indictment yet but Conspiracy Against the United States is a pretty standard charge in any case involving tax fraud, as that statute could be applied to mean "conspiracy to defraud the US Treasury by not paying your taxes." Although there is work on behalf of foreign entities here, people or companies get charged with Conspiracy Against the United States all the time in cases that are more garden variety financial crimes.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:36 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:37 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:38 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:48 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:52 am
by degenerasian
I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:53 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:54 am
by Pruitt

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:01 am
by Pruitt

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:02 am
by Nonlinear FC
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/status/925010981067132930



That guy was an intern when I worked at New America Foundation. Sharp as a tack. Cool to see him and Ezra and M. Iglesias all stepping out. There are a few more that were either with NAF or coming to events and hanging around (in a good way) about 10 years back that pretty regularly pop up on national news/feeds these days.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:08 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:15 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:21 am
by mister d
Just in case you're feeling too positive and were wondering what would happen when Trump fires Mueller today ...

https://twitter.com/Phil_Mattingly/stat ... 9601487872

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:25 am
by Joe K
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/Zathras3/status/925016563979300866

This is probably right. I read the Manafort indictment and while his level of sheer greed is astounding, there isn't anything in there about campaign-related activities.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:29 am
by The Sybian
degenerasian wrote:I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.


Really? The entire point of going after Manafort is to get him to provide evidence against Trump in exchange for a lighter sentence. If Trump pardon's Manafort, he doesn't need to give any evidence against Trump. Trump isn't going to pardon Manafort to help a friend, he is going to want to pardon Manafort to save his own ass! There are dozens of targets who have info that could sink Trump. Trump needs them all to believe that they don't need to give dirt on Trump to save their own asses. Of course he would pardon everyone if he could.

Trump pardoning his conspirators is the only thing saving his own ass, This is why Mueller brought in State AGs to bring state charges, so Trump can't pardon those charges. Everything hinges on a mechanism to prevent Trump from pardoning everyone, and Congress won't do their fucking job and keep the wannabe despot in check.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:29 am
by tennbengal
Joe K wrote:
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/Zathras3/status/925016563979300866

This is probably right. I read the Manafort indictment and while his level of sheer greed is astounding, there isn't anything in there about campaign-related activities.


The heat is in the Papadoulous guilty plea. Smoke and fire there. And Mueller kept it under wraps for months. No leaks from Mueller. I bet he has others already wrapped up that no one knows about yet.

https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/status ... 7745737728

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:33 am
by tennbengal

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:40 am
by Joe K
tennbengal wrote:
Joe K wrote:
tennbengal wrote:https://twitter.com/Zathras3/status/925016563979300866

This is probably right. I read the Manafort indictment and while his level of sheer greed is astounding, there isn't anything in there about campaign-related activities.


The heat is in the Papadoulous guilty plea. Smoke and fire there. And Mueller kept it under wraps for months. No leaks from Mueller. I bet he has others already wrapped up that no one knows about yet.

https://twitter.com/brianbeutler/status ... 7745737728

Yeah, I read the Papdapolous document and it's definitely the most significant evidence of collusion yet. It's interesting that there appear to be numerous references to Manafort there. Perhaps the idea is to charge Manafort with the tax fraud, which he appears to be dead to rights on, and then see what he's willing to say about campaign-related activities.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:43 am
by tennbengal
Could be. Someone on the twitters pointed out the Manafort stuff has everything in full detail until he joins team Trump in 2016. Then it goes silent. It seems highly likely to me that Mueller is holding back from the charge the post-Trump campaign manager time period for leverage at this point.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:53 am
by Steve of phpBB
tennbengal wrote:Could be. Someone on the twitters pointed out the Manafort stuff has everything in full detail until he joins team Trump in 2016. Then it goes silent. It seems highly likely to me that Mueller is holding back from the charge the post-Trump campaign manager time period for leverage at this point.


I agree. We also need to remember that even if the Trump campaign explicitly colluded with Russia - promised pro-Russia policies in exchange for campaign assistance - it's not even clear that that is an actual crime under the US Code.

I also don't think it's accurate to say it's treason. The US isn't at war with Russia.

What it does show, at a minimum, is breach of Trump's fiduciary duty as President to put the interests of the United States ahead of his own. Which should be grounds for impeachment, but won't be unless Trump himself does something to make impeachment unavoidable.

Re: The Indictment Thread (Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part II)

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:58 am
by degenerasian
The Sybian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:I can't see Trump getting involved and pardoning him. Trump uses and abuses people. Manafort is dead to him.


Really? The entire point of going after Manafort is to get him to provide evidence against Trump in exchange for a lighter sentence. If Trump pardon's Manafort, he doesn't need to give any evidence against Trump. Trump isn't going to pardon Manafort to help a friend, he is going to want to pardon Manafort to save his own ass! There are dozens of targets who have info that could sink Trump. Trump needs them all to believe that they don't need to give dirt on Trump to save their own asses. Of course he would pardon everyone if he could.

Trump pardoning his conspirators is the only thing saving his own ass, This is why Mueller brought in State AGs to bring state charges, so Trump can't pardon those charges. Everything hinges on a mechanism to prevent Trump from pardoning everyone, and Congress won't do their fucking job and keep the wannabe despot in check.


You forgot how arrogant Trump is. He always thinks he can save his own ass. And why not, it's gotten him through business and all the way to the Presidency. He thinks he's bullet-proof. Trump will distance and minimize his relationship with Manafort. It will smash a million holes in all his pardon bluster from before and will make anyone who might potentially be facing charges realize that unless your name is Trump, you're going to be left swinging in the wind. Trump and Manafort did not part amicably. Since Manafort voluntarily surrendered to the FBI, and he has no support from Trump, I'm guessing Muellers going to flip him pretty fast. When Manafort flips, Trump will have a different strategy. FAKE NEWS!