Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Johnnie »

Well, it was inevitable, but we got there. Aziz Ansari had a bad date, acted awkward, and was outed by a girl who had her identity protected by a gossip rag website.

Because clearly he's Harvey Weinstein. What a way to fuck over a real movement in Hollywood. Actual sexual assault and a horny dude being pushy, but being told about it and apologizing afterward is clearly the same thing. I'm glad I'm out of the dating pool. This is ridiculous.

Aziz Ansari Is Guilty. Of Not Being a Mind Reader.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by rass »

Not necessarily you Johnnie, but some people seem really anxious for the backlash against #metoo to begin, huh?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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rass wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:35 am Not necessarily you Johnnie, but some people seem really anxious for the backlash against #metoo to begin, huh?
No doubt about that. There have been emotionally stunted men hiding behind jacked up muscles since the dawn of time (they’re gamer bros in the modern age). They itch for women to be shown their um proper place.

Having said that, given how “Grace” expected Ansari to read the situation? I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest she ignored doing precisely what the author of the NYT Op-Ed said (end the date) in order to flesh out the letter she knew she was going to write.

He got played.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Joe K »

EnochRoot wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:22 am
rass wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:35 am Not necessarily you Johnnie, but some people seem really anxious for the backlash against #metoo to begin, huh?
No doubt about that. There have been emotionally stunted men hiding behind jacked up muscles since the dawn of time (they’re gamer bros in the modern age). They itch for women to be shown their um proper place.

Having said that, given how “Grace” expected Ansari to read the situation? I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest she ignored doing precisely what the author of the NYT Op-Ed said (end the date) in order to flesh out the letter she knew she was going to write.

He got played.
I've read both The NY Times piece and the photographer's original account. It's not a great look for Ansari -- putting aside Ansari's status as a fairly beloved celeb, if a female friend or relative told me that they went on a first date and the guy was that pushy for sex, I'd definitely think he's a creep. But at the same time, it's not criminal behavior and doesn't have any of the abuse of power/ professional pressure dynamics of the entertainment industry harassment stories. So I don't think it's anything that will affect his career much. But I also fully agree with you about the eagerness of some to dismiss the movement as a whole. I posted a reference to the Andrew Sullivan New York Magazine piece in another thread, which was truly awful in its dismissiveness of legitimate concerns.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Right? I don't think she's claiming anything greater than "this is shitty behavior", which is exactly what any of us would think if it was our sister / friend / relative / mom (for some of you) and a non-famous dude getting pushy.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:15 am Right? I don't think she's claiming anything greater than "this is shitty behavior", which is exactly what any of us would think if it was our sister / friend / relative / mom (for some of you) and a non-famous dude getting pushy.
This is just human nature, but I'm convinced that the reaction of many would be very different if it were a female friend/family member and an anonymous guy, as opposed to an anonymous woman and a male celebrity whose shows/books/standup specials people enjoy. Again, that doesn't make Ansari a criminal or a sexual harasser, but he definitely could've acted better.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Just to be clear, are we just limiting this to "shitty behavior" of the sexual nature by men towards women? Is this just a consequence men have to face because of all the horrible shit people like Weinstein, Toback, etc. have done?

This story being a big deal is a little troubling to me. I think we're broaching behavior that is close to what many of us have done over the years. There have been times where I didn't take no for a final answer the first time, especially after we've done other things. Whether it was verbal or trying things while we were making out, but it's happened. I remember my face being buried between a girls thighs when she abruptly had a change of heart and kicked me out. If I was famous, would me banging on her door asking her what the fuck she was doing constitute a news story that was no doubt released as a comparison to the acts perpetrated by Weinstein, et al?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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If you were a woman, should you have to deal with "no" not being enough if you didn't start the night with a "no"? I get this isn't criminal and I get its the standard, but the point is to have everything get reconsidered, not just "hey, rape is bad so lets air that out".
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:52 am If you were a woman, should you have to deal with "no" not being enough if you didn't start the night with a "no"? I get this isn't criminal and I get its the standard, but the point is to have everything get reconsidered, not just "hey, rape is bad so lets air that out".
I agree. I just feel like Ansari was already made aware of his shitty behavior to which he apologized. I don't see a reason he needed to be publicly shamed like this.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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I'm totally OK with this if what happens is everyone (mostly men) need to examine their behavior and if a woman (or a guy) wants to put an end to a sexual encounter, it's not cool to flip out or get aggressive or super pushy.

Just shut it down and go beat off later.

I'm not Ok with conflating it to rape or Weinstein and I'd be really pissed if it resulted in something like Netflix canceling his show. Not just for selfish reasons, but because both would be a major over reaction.

From what I'm seeing the last 2 days, I think we're going to land on the former.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Giff wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:42 am Just to be clear, are we just limiting this to "shitty behavior" of the sexual nature by men towards women? Is this just a consequence men have to face because of all the horrible shit people like Weinstein, Toback, etc. have done?

This story being a big deal is a little troubling to me. I think we're broaching behavior that is close to what many of us have done over the years. There have been times where I didn't take no for a final answer the first time, especially after we've done other things. Whether it was verbal or trying things while we were making out, but it's happened. I remember my face being buried between a girls thighs when she abruptly had a change of heart and kicked me out. If I was famous, would me banging on her door asking her what the fuck she was doing constitute a news story that was no doubt released as a comparison to the acts perpetrated by Weinstein, et al?
This is the tough thing to face out of all of this, and as these stories get more innocuous the average male is forced to look around and go "wow, I always thought I was a pretty normal guy but maybe I HAVE been shitty to some women with my behavior in the past.", which gets more and more of the general population uncomfortable.

There is no right answer here. Sex is impossible to define on a flat level. You'd hope that most people would be comfortable saying "NO", clearly and firmly when put in that position, but I know a hell of a lot of people that aren't even comfortable enough to speak up at a dinner table around family or in what most would consider a normal light social situation. It's on the other half of that party to be able to read the situation as something the other party has a problem with isn't a hurdle to get over. Aziz is a likable guy. I dislike that anything in this vein is immediately labeled "sexual misconduct". He was a crappy person at reading the situation and unfortunately she didn't do anything to help herself. Whether she chose not to or didn't feel comfortable is irrelevant. Everybody wants to put someone into a Matt Lauer or Harvey Weinstein bucket right now but it just doesn't work that way. This shit happens all the time and as Giff said, I'd say most adult males (and some females) have pushed those boundaries pretty hard before. It's important to change the way people think about consent and sexuality and human interaction, not make sure NDAs are signed or taking every missed queue in an intimate interaction as a rape precursor. Teach for kids, sons and daughters alike, this shit isn't going away.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by EnochRoot »

It’s good there’s appropriate pushback on the anonymous woman who shamed Ansari for fear of saying ‘NO’. I mean, work that shit out before you go on a date, FFS.

But something else needs to be said here, FULL STOP:

if someone wants to publically shame someone it would be nice if they were willing to put their name to it.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Nooooooo.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:16 amNooooooo.
Have to agree.

The line between "shaming" for bad behaviour and "revealing" criminal behaviour and/or harassment is very, very thin indeed.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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And its not like a message board post, the identity of the person reporting this is known to the people who would "need" to know. Putting her name out there just lets whatever MRA faction that exists in Aziz's fanbase (and plenty more who don't care about him at all) to go after her.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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So glad I am not dating in this environment. Like one of the articles said, up through the 1980s, pretty much every movie about dating showed guys pushing the boundaries of date rape, trying to get reluctant girls to give in and put out. I think a lot of women don't want to make the first move, and to a degree, the guy usually has to to a chance and make the move. It can be a fine line between foreplay advancing how far a woman wants things to go, and a man being aggressive. I'm sure that distinction would be getting in my head and fucking me up if I was dating today. Hell, until I was a senior in college, I was so afraid of offending a girl, I rarely hooked up or dated.

Looking back, I wonder if any women I hooked up with or dated would have felt I pushed them into going further than they wanted. Alcohol was usually involved. I think most men have woken up hungover and immediately regretting who they hooked up with the night before. I've definitely hooked up with female friends I wasn't attracted to while sober, or knew hooking up with them would cause problems. And I've definitely hooked up with girls I wished I didn't, but, being drunk or horny, I made stupid mistakes. For a guy, it's a regret, or something to laugh about afterwards. Where is the line for a woman to feel this, versus blaming the guy for pressuring her into having sex? How do you walk the line between charming a girl you meet at a bar into having sex, when at first she is willing to go home with you and fool around, but not have sex? Is it OK to continue to fool around and eventually get her horny enough to put out in a one-night stand?

Take a guy like Aziz, and I'm sure there are tons of women who want to fuck a celebrity on the first date. In some ways, it's a reverse position of power, because they just want to fuck a celebrity, not necessarily him. I think being a celebrity changes the equation a bit, and most likely skews the expectations. I think a celebrity has a legitimately higher expectation of getting laid on a first date than an ordinary guy. Not saying it's right or OK to expect that or act on it, but I think celebrity status brings with it a much greater ability to get laid.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:26 am And its not like a message board post, the identity of the person reporting this is known to the people who would "need" to know. Putting her name out there just lets whatever MRA faction that exists in Aziz's fanbase (and plenty more who don't care about him at all) to go after her.
I’ll probably get slammed for this but whatever.

Same can be said for Ansari’s safety. Except he wasn’t afforded the convenience of anonymity.

I’m sorry, but her actions don’t speak of a woman afraid to say no. They speak of somebody itching to latch onto the rocket sling-shotting around the planet. “You missed several non-verbal cues.” She was on-point. He was the clod.

I’ll go as far as to say that you can spin it where this woman weaponized this whole thing, and is hiding in plain sight under the cloak of #metoo.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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So we're at the point where the guy who kept pressing a woman but eventually gave up is the bigger victim than the woman who told the story about the guy who kept pressing her and eventually gave up? If the story is factual, you can debate her intent all you want, but it still goes back to that.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:03 pm So we're at the point where the guy who kept pressing a woman but eventually gave up is the bigger victim than the woman who told the story about the guy who kept pressing her and eventually gave up? If the story is factual, you can debate her intent all you want, but it still goes back to that.
It's only a debate because she told her story to the world, with the full knowledge - based on what we've seen over the past few months - that it could kill his career. The whole world knows who he is and now the whole world can read this one-sided story about what a creep he is. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Mostly likely somewhere in between. But at this point, there's little he can do to change the general narrative that many will have that Aziz is another one of these creeps, thrown in with Weinstein, Spacey, etc.

Whether that's fair or not in this case can be debated. But somewhere there's a line where the public shaming is too far.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Maybe its vantage point, but I haven't seen anywhere that hasn't drawn a line between creepy and criminal.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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(Also, I think its pretty important she spelled the entire deal out versus "unnamed woman accuses Ansari of inappropriate behavior" that would have absolutely gotten him put in the same bucket.)
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:03 pm So we're at the point where the guy who kept pressing a woman but eventually gave up is the bigger victim than the woman who told the story about the guy who kept pressing her and eventually gave up? If the story is factual, you can debate her intent all you want, but it still goes back to that.
IF the story is factual? Come on. He’s been outed. The court of public opinion may cost him $$ when it’s all said and done.

And if you think about it, what does it go back to? That she accused a guy of being bad at reading physical cues, or how manipulative a person can be if a guy brings his oafish overtures to a date?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:13 pm Maybe its vantage point, but I haven't seen anywhere that hasn't drawn a line between creepy and criminal.
Can you clarify what you’re saying here?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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EnochRoot wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:18 pmIF the story is factual? Come on. He’s been outed. The court of public opinion may cost him $$ when it’s all said and done.


If she told a factual story, I don't get being pissed off at her on his behalf.
EnochRoot wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:19 pmCan you clarify what you’re saying here?
I'm saying I haven't read anything saying "Aziz should be in prison next to a rapist like Weinstein because we are unable to see levels or nuance in this ongoing #metoo movement".
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Anseri is an interesting guy who has chosen dating as his main topic. The majority of his stand-up and material (even a book called Modern Romance) is on the subject of his dating life. He talks about dating sites and apps and shares a lot of personal stories in detail.

So it's interesting that he's the one now being the object of a story and accused of being bad at reading cues, when he wrote the book on it.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Buddy, that's exactly the point.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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degenerasian wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:28 pm Anseri is an interesting guy who has chosen dating as his main topic. The majority of his stand-up and material (even a book called Modern Romance) is on the subject of his dating life. He talks about dating sites and apps and shares a lot of personal stories in detail.

So it's interesting that he's the one now being the object of a story and accused of being bad at reading cues, when he wrote the book on it.
Fair or not, I suspect this plays a part in her decision to tell the story. It probably galls her to see Ansari position himself as an authority on modern dating, albeit in a comedic way, when her experience with him was so upsetting.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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degenerasian wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:28 pm Anseri is an interesting guy who has chosen dating as his main topic. The majority of his stand-up and material (even a book called Modern Romance) is on the subject of his dating life. He talks about dating sites and apps and shares a lot of personal stories in detail.

So it's interesting that he's the one now being the object of a story and accused of being bad at reading cues, when he wrote the book on it.
Eh, it's not like he wrote a how-to book on reading non-verbal cues. He wrote anecdotally about how people meet today in Western cultures versus how his parents had an arranged marriage in India, or how Americans dated in the 1930s, or how in Japan, girls are sexually frustrated because men lack the courage to ask them out on dates. If anything, Aziz portrayed himself, through his stories, as a socially awkward guy lacking confidence in himself when it comes to dating, and having no clue what he wants, and being unable to make decisions or commitments.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:25 pm If she told a factual story, I don't get being pissed off at her on his behalf.
OK. This is where we see this entirely differently. I see a girl that has had previous dates just like this one. But for whatever reason, she thought he was going to be different. She was expecting fireworks. He saw a conquest. Some guys can go through their entire lives like this.

So this is her turning the tables on him.

If you want to make it a conversation about a 34 year old guy’s dating attitude, fine. But that’s not what she did.

mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:25 pm I'm saying I haven't read anything saying "Aziz should be in prison next to a rapist like Weinstein because we are unable to see levels or nuance in this ongoing #metoo movement".
The opportunity cost here is what a lot of the OpEds (written, spoken) by women in the press have lamented to her: “don’t confuse your bad date with assault, because it cheapens the movement.”
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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EnochRoot wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:43 pm The opportunity cost here is what a lot of the OpEds (written, spoken) by women in the press have lamented to her: “don’t confuse your bad date with assault, because it cheapens the movement.”
Then isn't it good this came up, so we can have the discussion? Isn't that what's happening? Men and women (the reasonable ones) are actually talking to each other instead of at each other for once. I haven't even see any women suggest his career should be over, but putting the breaks on him selling himself as some kind of expert in relationships or dating seems pretty reasonable. If you're selling yourself as some kind of expert at dating or relationships, then it's kind of newsworthy if in fact you're just as hopeless at it as everyone else.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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The Sybian wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:39 pm
degenerasian wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:28 pm Anseri is an interesting guy who has chosen dating as his main topic. The majority of his stand-up and material (even a book called Modern Romance) is on the subject of his dating life. He talks about dating sites and apps and shares a lot of personal stories in detail.

So it's interesting that he's the one now being the object of a story and accused of being bad at reading cues, when he wrote the book on it.
Eh, it's not like he wrote a how-to book on reading non-verbal cues. He wrote anecdotally about how people meet today in Western cultures versus how his parents had an arranged marriage in India, or how Americans dated in the 1930s, or how in Japan, girls are sexually frustrated because men lack the courage to ask them out on dates. If anything, Aziz portrayed himself, through his stories, as a socially awkward guy lacking confidence in himself when it comes to dating, and having no clue what he wants, and being unable to make decisions or commitments.
Exactly.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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EnochRoot wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:43 pmThe opportunity cost here is what a lot of the OpEds (written, spoken) by women in the press have lamented to her: “don’t confuse your bad date with assault, because it cheapens the movement.”
I don't buy a threshold for what constitutes public mention because that circles right back to silence enabling behavior. Like I said above, if she'd insisted on being vague even to protect her identity and allowed him to get dragged into the Weinstein/Spacey/Batali et all group, that would have absolutely been fucked up. This was a direct, detailed response to his public presentation of himself.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:50 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:43 pmThe opportunity cost here is what a lot of the OpEds (written, spoken) by women in the press have lamented to her: “don’t confuse your bad date with assault, because it cheapens the movement.”
I don't buy a threshold for what constitutes public mention because that circles right back to silence enabling behavior. Like I said above, if she'd insisted on being vague even to protect her identity and allowed him to get dragged into the Weinstein/Spacey/Batali et all group, that would have absolutely been fucked up. This was a direct, detailed response to his public presentation of himself.
Maybe I'm remembering a different case, but didn't she confront him on this privately and he expressed regret for how he acted?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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I believe so.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Almost like there's a difference between an actual person and their stage persona.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Its very clear where I'm coming from on all this, so every situation is run through the "if its one day my kid" lens. If my kid agrees to a date and goes back to a guys place and hooks up and then wants to stop and he keeps pressing, (1) obviously I'm glad he stopped and (2) if she tells the story versus letting it sit in silence, he doesn't get to become the victim because now people know what they weren't supposed to know. He shouldn't lose his show, but if he's shamed for his specific actions, whose fault is that?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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brian wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:48 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:43 pm The opportunity cost here is what a lot of the OpEds (written, spoken) by women in the press have lamented to her: “don’t confuse your bad date with assault, because it cheapens the movement.”
Then isn't it good this came up, so we can have the discussion? Isn't that what's happening? Men and women (the reasonable ones) are actually talking to each other instead of at each other for once. I haven't even see any women suggest his career should be over, but putting the breaks on him selling himself as some kind of expert in relationships or dating seems pretty reasonable. If you're selling yourself as some kind of expert at dating or relationships, then it's kind of newsworthy if in fact you're just as hopeless at it as everyone else.
My wife and I had a long discussion about the Aziz situation last night. One of her points was that damn near every woman has a story like Aziz's date, in that they were put in the awkward position of having to fend off someone who was pushing the boundaries of what she wanted to do.

We also went through the Megan Ganz/Dan Harmon stuff, which was quite good.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Johnnie »

mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I had a post teed up about how this discussion is important, but I pulled it back this morning. Should've probably put it out there, because it covers a lot of the ground the last page or so has hit upon.

* - I think, for the most part, Aziz is being viewed on a spectrum from "creepy dude who should be called out for shitty behavior" over to "guy being unfairly pulled into the #metoo discussion over a fairly run of the mill and ambiguous sexual interaction." I'm not sifting through Jezebel comments to find the righteously indignant folks who are just unreasonable on EVERY one of these stories. (The types of folks who don't have a problem when a guy is unfairly accused of rape, because fuck that guy, he's part of the culture that blahblahhatehate.)

* - Ansari, in no way, runs around acting like he's a smooth operator that understands women better than they do. He DOES craft his work to illustrate or highlight the fact that he's "woke." That's the jarring thing here and where he is most certainly going to take a hit with his personal brand. We don't know the degree of the damage, but that's just a point of fact with these things.

* - In some ways, in terms of having this important discussion, Ansari is the perfect guy to be the focus. This situation is very common. He apologized right away and made a decent statement this week. It sucks for him, but this is pretty much the next part of the #metoo movement... I think a lot of guys are feeling uncomfortable and slightly butt-hurt that stuff they've done in the past that was typical and in many ways cultural accepted, made the women in the equation feel shitty.

Get over it. Your uncomfortable feeling today is a tiny fraction of the shit women having been going through for... well, forever. If a woman says she's not feeling it, or she's pushing your hand away from her zipper, or squirming away from you trying to get after her bra... Just stop what you're doing.

I'm not judging anyone. I think it's really important that we start giving people a lot more forgiveness and understanding for shit that went down before #metoo. Specifically, if it's just fairly honest misunderstanding like I think this Aziz situation falls into. Like Giff and Syb said, you were operating under a bunch of assumptions and morays that are being called out for being decidedly male-focused.

I think that's what's bothering me about some of the #metoo accusations that are a lot more down on the spectrum like this Aziz deal. Going forward, guys are going to have a lot less leniency, but vilifying guys for being aggressive or pushy on a date 3 years ago? That's kind of bullshit, to me.
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