Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Shirley » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:34 pm

I'm not sure what to think about this whole Kevin Spacey story.

Yes, it's ultra creepy for a 26 year-old to make advances on a 14-year-old. And, I just looked Rapp up and he wasn't one of those kids who looks grown up at that age. He looked like a kid.

At the same time, it does sound like Spacey was quite drunk and didn't actually assault the kid (past lying on him). Once Rapp got up, he left without Spacey trying to grab him or anything.

I don't know. Do we excuse the drunken behavior of someone from 30 years ago? Or is it indicative of a likely pattern of behavior? We'll probably find out.

And then there's issue of people being mad that Spacey chose this as a time to come out. I think most folks have known or assumed he was gay/bi for years. I understand the frustration of a A-list star choosing not to come out until it seems like it might deflect a worse story. I get that complaint. At the same time, Spacey did it while apologizing for his behavior. Would it have been possible to apologize without coming out? Wouldn't it have been easier for him to just say he has no idea what this guy is talking about and leave it at that? There's certainly no evidence. I have to think that by acknowledging that it COULD have happened, and explaining that he's gay, Spacey is owning up to it. It also makes me think it's probably not something he's done a million times. I would hope he'd realize that if he HAS been assaulting boys throughout his career, those stories are about to come out. And if so, sort of admitting that this may have happened isn't going to make that easier.

So, again, I don't know how to feel about this one. I understand folks who are disgusted and think Spacey is a predator. But I also think it might be more benign than that.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by govmentchedda » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:38 pm

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by brian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:42 pm

His career could have survived an attempted rape against a young girl or an adult man, but not a young boy.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Johnny Carwash » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:46 pm

He should flee to Europe, then enjoy a few decades of having big stars treat it as a privilege to work with him and saying he's wrongly persecuted.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by TT2.0 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:51 pm

i posted my thoughts on this in the netflix thread so ill copy it here
i still dont understand what he was supposed to say

Maybe Im on the wrong side of this, but let me take a stab at defending Kevin Spacey a little bit. From my (admittedly limited) understanding, he didnt actually have sex with a 14 year old or assault him, he just hit on him. I agree that coming out as gay in his apology was shitty and sleazy, no arguement that as a deflection it was crappy. That being said, he didnt actually rape a kid, statutorily or otgerwise. He also isnt denying that it happened, just saying he doesnt remember. Basically I read his statement as him saying "Im sorry. I dont remember the incident but i drink all the time back then and ive done shitty things so im sorry this happened, i dont remember it but it sounds like me and im sorry if my advances hurt this kid, im not that guy anymore and im going to be honest about things ive kept private in the past".

as far as it goes, what else can he really say? especially if he doesnt remember hittinh on someone at a party three decades ago? besides not coming out as gay which i admit was shitty, what could he have said that people would not rip him apart for? hes not denying it, hes apologizing, what else can he do? i guess id feel different if he actually slept with the kid...but i dont understand what he was supposed to say if it wasnt that
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by degenerasian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:38 pm

Just like that they have cancelled House of Cards
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by brian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:38 pm

degenerasian wrote:Just like that they have cancelled House of Cards


Though really it should have been cancelled three seasons ago.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Shirley » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:39 pm

govmentchedda wrote:http://defamer.gawker.com/people-keep-telling-us-about-kevin-spacey-s-aggressive-1686507320


I didn't read the whole thread, but the first 5-10 were just stories of him hitting on dudes. I don't care if he's gay. The issue is whether or not he's a pedophile or other type of sexual predator. Most of those stories made him sound like a promiscuous gay guy. Not that uncommon, I don't think.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Shirley » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:45 pm

From the Netflix thread:

Pruitt wrote:1) No need for details here - but when an adult male tries to force sex on a teenager, damage occurs. True, not a full blown rape, but it's a disgusting thing to do, and no amount of claiming to be drunk can forgive it.

2) What really grates is his using this moment to come out of the closet. Is it because of some sudden sincere need to admit the truth? Some misguided effort at deflection? Too, too many people will connect the two revelations.


1. I get that. I'm not sure he tried to force sex, but it sounds like he tried to get it. People do a lot of really dumb and/or shitty things when drunk/high. Does it excuse it? No, but it certainly can explain to a degree.

2. How else could he acknowledge and apologize? It seems the only other alternative would be to deny, which I think would be worse. You could make the argument that as an A-list celebrity who was fairly well-known to be gay, he should have come out years ago. I get that, but I don't think anyone else has a right to tell someone they should or should not come out publically.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by brian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:46 pm

I think it’s good there’s legitimate discussion about these things but I hope there’s being a distinction made between awkward sexual advances and legitimate sexual harassment. Like with rape I assume 95 percent of all accusations are legitimate but I wouldn’t want to see some guy’s career killed because he sucks talking to women. (I’m not saying that’s happening just that there’s a huge difference between two people in similar hierarchical positions and an “unwanted” but ultimately harmless advance and someone who is in a position to hire or blackball you). Again not specific to Spacey since the underage thing is troubling but one struggling actor hitting on another is not harassment.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by The Sybian » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:07 pm

Didn't see this coming, Frank Underwood taken down by Kevin Spacey hitting on a child at a party 30 years ago. House of Cards writers really reaching for that plot line.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by mister d » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:22 am

People like Kevin Spacey so people are looking for escape clauses here. If Mitch McConnell got drunk and laid down on top of a 14 year old, are we really parsing “could have happened” versus “did happen”?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Joe K » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:52 am

mister d wrote:People like Kevin Spacey so people are looking for escape clauses here. If Mitch McConnell got drunk and laid down on top of a 14 year old, are we really parsing “could have happened” versus “did happen”?

Also, if any 26 year old friend of mine (gay or straight) was making aggressive advances towards a 14 year old, I'd quickly lose respect for that person. That's just predatory behavior.

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Shirley » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:20 am

Oh, I definitely think less of Spacey for it. Frankly, I probably wouldn't trust my kids alone around any big star though, so it's not that surprising to me.

The McConnell example is a bad one. I'm not aware that Kevin Spacey is a leader of a large national organization that has taken a decidedly pro-family, anti-gay, tough-on-crime position.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by mister d » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:25 am

That too, because Spacey is so much older now people seem to be pretending 26 versus 14 is bad but not like horrible bad. 26 is Derek Carr and Taylor Hall, not some blurred line between child and adult.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by mister d » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:26 am

Shirley wrote:The McConnell example is a bad one. I'm not aware that Kevin Spacey is a leader of a large national organization that has taken a decidedly pro-family, anti-gay, tough-on-crime position.


So because Spacey has never campaigned against hoping to fuck 14 year olds, it lessens the impact?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by HaulCitgo » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 am

brian wrote:I think it’s good there’s legitimate discussion about these things but I hope there’s being a distinction made between awkward sexual advances and legitimate sexual harassment. Like with rape I assume 95 percent of all accusations are legitimate but I wouldn’t want to see some guy’s career killed because he sucks talking to women. (I’m not saying that’s happening just that there’s a huge difference between two people in similar hierarchical positions and an “unwanted” but ultimately harmless advance and someone who is in a position to hire or blackball you). Again not specific to Spacey since the underage thing is troubling but one struggling actor hitting on another is not harassment.


Extremely thin line there, particularly in the workplace where id guess half of relationships begin.

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:07 am

The problem with a bunch of white, straight dudes talking about this is we lack the perspective of gay dudes who have to deal with the repercussions. I haven't read the Netflix thread, so apologies if someone else touched on what I'm about to type.

First off, let me stipulate: It is an extremely shitty thing he did. He could've simply said, I don't recall the incident, but I apologize and will try to make amends. But to throw in the massive deflection of coming out of the closet is just really gross. If his contention is that he was too drunk to remember (implied), just stick to that and let it be. He couldn't do that for some reason. Who did he think he was helping with this admission of being gay, especially in this context?

What's not being discussed is the long held belief that gay male = sexual deviant. In many cases, gay men are portrayed as being sexual predators and in a lot of depictions is is an older gay male praying on a young guy. When you hear about violence against gays, a lot of what fuels these acts is this belief that all gay men are predatory deviants, cruising for young boys to molest.

So, sorry, but fuck Kevin Spacey.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Shirley » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:28 am

mister d wrote:
Shirley wrote:The McConnell example is a bad one. I'm not aware that Kevin Spacey is a leader of a large national organization that has taken a decidedly pro-family, anti-gay, tough-on-crime position.


So because Spacey has never campaigned against hoping to fuck 14 year olds, it lessens the impact?


It doesn't affect what Spacey did. But if it were McConnell, or any other crusader, that adds a whole extra dimension to the act.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Shirley » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:31 am

Nonlinear FC wrote:What's not being discussed is the long held belief that gay male = sexual deviant. In many cases, gay men are portrayed as being sexual predators and in a lot of depictions is is an older gay male praying on a young guy. When you hear about violence against gays, a lot of what fuels these acts is this belief that all gay men are predatory deviants, cruising for young boys to molest.


Yeah, I agree that this is probably the key reason so many in the gay community are outraged about this. But I'm not sure if it makes a difference that he came out in his apology. Either way, he was an older man coming on to a 14-year-old boy. Expressly coming out is almost redundant in that case.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Ryan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:45 am

Shirley wrote:Either way, he was an older man coming on to a 14-year-old boy. Expressly coming out is almost redundant in that case.


Eh, one would think that if you're drunk enough to try to sleep with a minor and not remember it, you're drunk enough to fool around with dudes even though you aren't gay

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Shirley » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am

Ryan wrote:
Shirley wrote:Either way, he was an older man coming on to a 14-year-old boy. Expressly coming out is almost redundant in that case.


Eh, one would think that if you're drunk enough to try to sleep with a minor and not remember it, you're drunk enough to fool around with dudes even though you aren't gay


I don't know... I guess I've never been gay-minor-fucking drunk.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Pruitt » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:00 am

Shirley wrote:2. How else could he acknowledge and apologize? It seems the only other alternative would be to deny, which I think would be worse. You could make the argument that as an A-list celebrity who was fairly well-known to be gay, he should have come out years ago. I get that, but I don't think anyone else has a right to tell someone they should or should not come out publically.


It's the correlation that people will make - I do see your point though.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by HaulCitgo » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:04 am

That's way drunker than I've ever been too.

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by degenerasian » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:05 am

So the only way he could have avoided this was to come out 10 years ago. Then he wouldn't have had to now when accused. That seems unreasonable.

So should actors who are gay just come out now? Before eventually being put in a no-win situation?

I'm just throwing it out there. I know it's extremely difficult to come out due to many factors, employment, family, discrimination etc...
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by P.D.X. » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:06 am

Yeah whoever heard of a gay actor.

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by mister d » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:21 am

degenerasian wrote:So the only way he could have avoided this was to come out 10 years ago. Then he wouldn't have had to now when accused. That seems unreasonable.

So should actors who are gay just come out now? Before eventually being put in a no-win situation?

I'm just throwing it out there. I know it's extremely difficult to come out due to many factors, employment, family, discrimination etc...


What's weird is he's always been able to avoid coming out, either in statements or in response to direct questions, until right this moment. Almost like it was strategic and not some back-up-against-the-wall disclosure.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by sancarlos » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:22 am

I don't think people are turning against him because they learned he's gay. People are turning against him because he made aggressive sexual advances on a minor.

Anybody who wants to give Kevin Spacey a pass should think back to when they were 26. I sure you wouldn't have considered hitting on a 14 year-old.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by mister d » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:24 am

Which is exactly why he added the gay aspect, because people who want to sympathize here or want to continue liking Spacey might somehow see that as a mitigating, "well, I've never been there" factor. Its complete shit.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by DSafetyGuy » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:30 am

sancarlos wrote:I don't think people are turning against him because they learned he's gay. People are turning against him because he made aggressive sexual advances on a minor.

Anybody who wants to give Kevin Spacey a pass should think back to when they were 26. I sure you wouldn't have considered hitting on a 14 year-old.


Exactly. A 14-year-old is an eighth-grader. Not a 20-year-old playing a 14-year-old in a movie/TV show.

An eighth-grader at your kid's middle school.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by degenerasian » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:30 am

mister d wrote:Which is exactly why he added the gay aspect, because people who want to sympathize here or want to continue liking Spacey might somehow see that as a mitigating, "well, I've never been there" factor. Its complete shit.


Yup. In fact we've all been there.
If LGTBQ is to be truly treated equally then there needs to be no distinction between seducing a 14-year old boy or 14-year old girl or 14 year old trans gendered. This is why the gay community is outraged because Spacey making this distinction "i only may have done this because I'm gay" sets them back.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Ryan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:35 am

Travolta's really stuck now

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by sancarlos » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:44 am

Ryan wrote:Travolta's really stuck now

I know you're joking, but assuming he has no similar skeletons in his closet (pardon the pun, har har), I doubt he ever comes out.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:50 am

mister d wrote:
degenerasian wrote:So the only way he could have avoided this was to come out 10 years ago. Then he wouldn't have had to now when accused. That seems unreasonable.

So should actors who are gay just come out now? Before eventually being put in a no-win situation?

I'm just throwing it out there. I know it's extremely difficult to come out due to many factors, employment, family, discrimination etc...


What's weird is he's always been able to avoid coming out, either in statements or in response to direct questions, until right this moment. Almost like it was strategic and not some back-up-against-the-wall disclosure.



I think was an up against the wall moment and that he (and his team, don't forget) strategically decided that coming out now would deflect from the sexual assault of a minor issue. To be more charitable, I think it's likely his crisis communications folks thought that his coming out would put some context around the assault. Or.. Something? It really doesn't look good, pretty much however you slice it.

And, yes, one of the reasons folks are so pissed at Spacey is that he has denied and/or refused to come out, despite decades of this being on of the least well-kept secrets in Hollywood. Again, from the LGBTQ perspective, it took being accused of being a child molester for him to come out. Instead of being an example of a highly successful actor, he chooses to come out in this context.

Just reiterating, there are personal angles to this that most of us here just don't really grasp. I get that it's difficult to come out, I really do. But to do so now, in such a blatantly "hey, look over there!" way is just a shitty thing to do.

Some of you guys are acting like he had to come out. Why? These types of rumors and innuendo have been all over the place for over a decade. He may have thought now was the time to do some public soul-searching, but it sure doesn't look that way to a ton of people.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:55 am

sancarlos wrote:
Ryan wrote:Travolta's really stuck now

I know you're joking, but assuming he has no similar skeletons in his closet (pardon the pun, har har), I doubt he ever comes out.



There are a lot of allegations against Travolta. Not of the under-age variety, but definitely unwanted advances on men.

http://gawker.com/5993260/document-show ... ult-claims
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Steve of phpBB » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:04 am

mister d wrote:Which is exactly why he added the gay aspect, because people who want to sympathize here or want to continue liking Spacey might somehow see that as a mitigating, "well, I've never been there" factor. Its complete shit.


I agree. And reading his "apology," it didn't even look like he was using his coming out as a "it was a tough situation, you've never been there." It was "oh by the way, I'm living my life as a gay man now. So treat me like a hero and forget about that other stuff."
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by mister d » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:15 pm

Right. I thought the wording and revelation make things worse, if anything.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:32 pm

mister d wrote:Right. I thought the wording and revelation make things worse, if anything.



I'm a STRONG "yup" on this, if it's not clear already.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by sancarlos » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:56 pm

"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by howard » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:30 pm

No excuse for trying to fuck a 14yo child, much less actually fuck a child. Homo or hetero. I'm pretty firm on this point, and I'm not even a parent.

I've been really drunk plenty of times, but never drunk enough to lie on top of a 14yo child. This is a serious crime, and I cannot imagine an explanation that would convince me otherwise.

ETA: almost forgot. The kid who leveled the accusation is named Anthony Rapp. One commentator, apparently in defense of Spacey, said simply, "bum rap."

Hey, I'm harsh, but I still have my sense of humor.
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