Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by brian »

Anything good that's ever happened in society was because some group of people took an unpopular and potentially counterproductive stand. From abolitionists to women's suffrage to the civil rights movement. It's time we started looking at this in those terms. And when society catches up (and it will, quite quickly) no one, especially a major political party, is going to want to be on the other side.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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brian wrote:Anything good that's ever happened in society was because some group of people took an unpopular and potentially counterproductive stand. From abolitionists to women's suffrage to the civil rights movement. It's time we started looking at this in those terms. And when society catches up (and it will, quite quickly) no one, especially a major political party, is going to want to be on the other side.


Got to hand it to you - that is an excellent point.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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So...

1) In most of the reporting I've seen (I'd say all, but I don't feel like going back and actually checking) the accusation is buttressed by a consistent aspect: At least one, but usually multiple can attest to the fact that the victim told them about the incident soon after, or at the very least WAAAAY before all this #metoo stuff started. Maybe I'm missing that, but so far I haven't seen it.

2) What we've also seen, almost universally, is that someone (or a group) comes forward in the initial story. Then you have others that add their voices. It is early. I will be very curious to see if this pattern follows here.

=-=-=-=-=

I think, if you've been paying attention (which I understand if you haven't), I've been very on board with calling people out and the positives of the #metoo movement. But, I'm also very much aware that this issue can so easily be weaponized. We're dealing almost exclusively with 2 people and their version of an incident. That's why that issue #1 is pretty damn important. The second point isn't necessarily vital, but it sure helps erase doubt.

Calling for Franken to resign over this seems like an overreaction. And I'd say the same thing if you replaced Cruz with Franken. We can't just let a single accusation kill anyone's career or reputation.

BTW, http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/senator- ... issed-her/

I also have stuff to say about that photo... Later on that.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by mister d »

Nonlinear FC wrote:We can't just let a single accusation kill anyone's career or reputation.


Agreed, but I don't think that's what happening here. We have a photograph and we have a non-denial. A denial doesn't mean something didn't happen, but a non-denial sure feels the opposite.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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mister d wrote:We have a photograph . . .


of Franken using a woman's body as a prop without her consent. It's wrong, and Franken should resign to help reinforce how wrong it is.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Probably why I'll never have kids because I'd have to be responsible for instilling a fair and just morality: I completely disagree. In a perfect and righteous world, sure. But we don't live in one of those.

When the Republican party resigns in shame enough masse over the debasing and disgusting ideology they've pushed for decades, then and only then does someone like Franken have to go, imo.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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I'm absolutely sure that's how Dem leadership thinks, but its like the antithesis of how real leaders would.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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brian wrote:Anything good that's ever happened in society was because some group of people took an unpopular and potentially counterproductive stand. From abolitionists to women's suffrage to the civil rights movement. It's time we started looking at this in those terms. And when society catches up (and it will, quite quickly) no one, especially a major political party, is going to want to be on the other side.


I want to agree with you, but none of the political stands you mentioned involve anyone resigning from a position of power that allows them a platform to make change. The problem is that if Franken resigns, it doesn't send a sign to Conservatives or Republicans that sexual harassment is unacceptable, the message they receive is "Liberals and Dems are pussies, and will resign, while Republican sexual harassers and child molestors stay in office." I've always called on Dems to take the high road, and it gets us President Trump. Franken resigning doesn't help bring about any change, and the next Republican accused of sexual harassment will still blame the victim, blame the Failing Liberal Media for spreading fake news, and if the Republicans are in charge, no investigations are brought. They will forget Franken resigned. Their base doesn't care that Moore molested vulnerable children, because he is running against a Dem. The Evangelicals don't care that Trump brags about grabbing women by the pussy, because he promised Conservative Judges, and plays to their fears and racism. Nothing is going to sway those voters. Just look at the hypocrisy from the Right. All of Trump's accusers were immediately attacked as liars and Democratic conspirators. Harvey Weinstein's scandal immediately labels all Liberals as scum, because Liberals are presumed to support everything Hollywood (I have never heard a single Democrat or prominent Liberal defend Weinstein despite countless claims that we all do), then Roy Moore is accused, and immediate attacks on his accusers (one accuser was DIVORCED 20 years ago!) and we have seen the jaw dropping lengths people will go to defend Moore. Playing by the rules gets the Dems Trump as President despite 3 million fewer votes, and the horrendous gerrymandering that gave us a Republican House and Senate, despite more votes for Democrats. It gets us Justice Gorsuch because the GOP is shameless in cheating. The Obama's aimed high, and got 7 years of Birtherism lead by Trump, who calls verifiable facts "fake news" on the way to his Presidency.

I'm not going to defend Franken or his actions, and if worse things come out, I'll call for his resignation. As it is, that picture is not anywhere near molesting a 14 year old in court waiting for her mother to come out of a custody hearing, or the additional 8 women who have come forward. I also believe using power is a major factor in sexual harassment. A comedian trying to kiss someone doesn't compare to a prosecutor molesting a girl in court, a comedian jerking off in front of a subordinate employee, or a powerful producer giving roles to actresses for blow jobs. I'm withholding judgment, because more shit almost always comes out.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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I think resignation is a good move because a Dem will appoint the successor. And I don't really care what a resignation tells Republicans. On a personal level, I'm more concerned with what a resignation will tell my daughter and other girls and women. Politically, I am more interested in what a resignation for a sense of honor will tell the millions of people who aren't hard-core Republicans or Democrats.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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But Syb, the threshold for resignation isn't "is it as bad as what a Republican has to date gotten away with".
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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So, gotta ask... Is he actually groping her in that photo?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Nonlinear FC wrote:So, gotta ask... Is he actually groping her in that photo?


I'd also like to know some more context, but even if he isn't literally touching her if he did it without her knowing about it, it's still gross.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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brian wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:So, gotta ask... Is he actually groping her in that photo?


I'd also like to know some more context, but even if he isn't literally touching her if he did it without her knowing about it, it's still gross.



It's absolutely a gross photo.

But I'm seeing headlines like "Franken Apologizes for Groping."

First off, no he didn't. He apologized for the photo's existence, he never apologized for, or stipulated to groping her in today's statement.

I don't know if it matters, really, in the end. The stuff he did backstage sounds pretty credible* and this photo sure shows a guy objectifying a former Playboy bunny. I'm just riffing here, but a highly educated guy like Franken (whose comedy is built around a certain level of condescension and snide remarks) seems like exactly the kind of guy to think a playmate was of a lower class. Maybe that's unfair. Whatever.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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[removed]

You know, I'm just pulling this one. I'm not happy I posted it, and I'm not even sure I agree with what I wrote, so I'm removing it.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Yeah just sucks for him that the only time he acted like a jerk there was a camera. Come on.

Cause I bet he's racking his brain to figure out who else might be coming forward now.

But I hope I'm wrong. Because that would mean there were no other women who got harassed/assaulted.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Yup. Hard to believe that a guy that would do what described earlier today would do that only once, especially when he was in a position of power in both the entertainment industry and politics.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Nonlinear FC wrote:
brian wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:So, gotta ask... Is he actually groping her in that photo?


I'd also like to know some more context, but even if he isn't literally touching her if he did it without her knowing about it, it's still gross.



It's absolutely a gross photo.

But I'm seeing headlines like "Franken Apologizes for Groping."

First off, no he didn't. He apologized for the photo's existence, he never apologized for, or stipulated to groping her in today's statement.

I don't know if it matters, really, in the end. The stuff he did backstage sounds pretty credible* and this photo sure shows a guy objectifying a former Playboy bunny. I'm just riffing here, but a highly educated guy like Franken (whose comedy is built around a certain level of condescension and snide remarks) seems like exactly the kind of guy to think a playmate was of a lower class. Maybe that's unfair. Whatever.


Here's a link to his apology. It seems pretty decent to me (though my opinion doesn't really mean much):

https://twitter.com/samstein/status/931215736927899648
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Well, you had a group of current and former female colleagues come out today and say he's a swell guy. We haven't seen the typical* second and third day stories of women coming out with their own accusations.

I dunno. I keep going back and forth on him resigning. If this is all that comes out, I just don't know if that's the right thing to do. But I'm with you guys, sure seems like if Tweeden's story is accurate, there almost has to be others out there.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Nonlinear FC wrote:Well, you had a group of current and former female colleagues come out today and say he's a swell guy. We haven't seen the typical* second and third day stories of women coming out with their own accusations.

I dunno. I keep going back and forth on him resigning. If this is all that comes out, I just don't know if that's the right thing to do. But I'm with you guys, sure seems like if Tweeden's story is accurate, there almost has to be others out there.


I'm going back and forth now, too. It didn't register with me that when the picture was taken, he was a comedian, not a Senator.

A comedian in the course of making a joke that does something improper and over the line - that's different in kind from a district attorney looking for kids in divorce court that he can molest.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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I mean, I've tried really hard NOT to compare these various things, just try to judge the merits or veracity or whatever.

The Moore stuff is crushing, as is, frankly, the Trump stuff because it has those elements I keep going back to (others coming forward, having those close to the victim at the time confirm they talked about it in the window around the offense).

But this Franken incident, as a stand alone? I didn't want to get into the day it came out, but I was always a little bit like "really?" in terms of going from that photo to groping. That's the kind of sophomoric "wochah-wochah" stuff that you'd see on Laugh In or whatever. Was it tasteless? Yeah, sure, obviously. But we're also talking about a current climate that is nowhere NEAR what we're talking about in 2006.

The incident as described by Tweeden is probably enough, though. That's just really shitty behavior. What's going to be really interesting (again, if nothing else comes out) is if Franken tries in anyway to chip away at her version of that incident. He says he has a different recollection. Is that where he leaves it?

My hunch is that he's just going to try and ride this out. And I really don't know that there's anyone in the Democratic party with enough power or gravitas at this moment in time to put the screws to him and force a resignation. I mean, and honestly... This isn't a slam dunk "He's a pig and should resign!" situation.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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At this point the thread needs to be renamed to some sort of "Hollywood/Political Sexual Assault Omnibus" thread. We're kinda beyond Spacey. (And I don't think we ever talked Weinstein which is what has begat these additional individuals being outed.)

Something the internet found. Here's a 3 minute clip of said USO tour covered by a news organization of some type. Check the military dude wrapping his leg in a dry hump motion around Ms. Tweeden when he hugs her: (@1:11)

https://youtu.be/JWwGM9x2Gxs
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Nonlinear FC wrote:I mean, I've tried really hard NOT to compare these various things, just try to judge the merits or veracity or whatever.

The Moore stuff is crushing, as is, frankly, the Trump stuff because it has those elements I keep going back to (others coming forward, having those close to the victim at the time confirm they talked about it in the window around the offense).

But this Franken incident, as a stand alone? I didn't want to get into the day it came out, but I was always a little bit like "really?" in terms of going from that photo to groping. That's the kind of sophomoric "wochah-wochah" stuff that you'd see on Laugh In or whatever. Was it tasteless? Yeah, sure, obviously. But we're also talking about a current climate that is nowhere NEAR what we're talking about in 2006.

The incident as described by Tweeden is probably enough, though. That's just really shitty behavior. What's going to be really interesting (again, if nothing else comes out) is if Franken tries in anyway to chip away at her version of that incident. He says he has a different recollection. Is that where he leaves it?

My hunch is that he's just going to try and ride this out. And I really don't know that there's anyone in the Democratic party with enough power or gravitas at this moment in time to put the screws to him and force a resignation. I mean, and honestly... This isn't a slam dunk "He's a pig and should resign!" situation.


Nice to see some semblance of sanity returning. If Franken resigned over that picture, we would see old pictures of lots of Dems coming out and an outcry for all of them to resign. As stupid, immature and unfunny as that picture was, I'm sure there is an old picture of almost everyone other than Mike Pence that could be similarly embarrassing. I have very few pictures from college, but most of them could be presented with a narrative that would make me seem unelectable. Franken did forcibly kiss her, but it was supposedly part of a skit. Did he write the skit as a pervy excuse to kiss her? Maybe. Even if he did, it's a far cry from Trump's past or Moore preying on children. Like you said, the accusations against Moore were immediately followed by many more, along with dozens of "everybody knew" comments, stories of Moore being banned from the mall, HS yearbook signings... Trump has at least 12 public accusations, as well as a 40 year history of publicly being disgusting towards women. Franken has been in the public eye since the late 1970s. If this was a regular occurrence, more people would have come out by now. Maybe they will in the next few days, so I'm still withholding judgment.

Interesting approach from Huckabee Sanders, saying Franken is heinous and Trump is clean because Franken took responsibility and apologized, while Trump refuses to apologize or accept responsibility. Tweeden accepted the apology and she is saying we should move on, even though she is a RW political commentator. I've actually seen a number of Conservative pundits saying society should accept Franken's apology and move on.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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The Sybian wrote:I have very few pictures from college, but most of them could be presented with a narrative that would make me seem unelectable.

I'm certainly not running for office anytime soon, but I have pictures of myself (as does a shit ton of other people) dressed as a Korean flower lady during Halloween in Korea.

I was so good at playing the part people didn't recognize me. Hell, I have photos with the Korean flower ladies and they thought it was funny. Everyone was impressed. It was far closer to Robert Downey Jr. than Al Jolsen.

But ya know, if I ever ran for office and those pics surface with a false narrative, I'll be labeled a racist. Every military member at Osan AB knows that the point of my costume was exactly the opposite, but it would be blown out of context and I'd be forced to apologize to people being offended on behalf of someone who wasn't.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Johnnie wrote:
The Sybian wrote:I have very few pictures from college, but most of them could be presented with a narrative that would make me seem unelectable.

I'm certainly not running for office anytime soon, but I have pictures of myself (as does a shit ton of other people) dressed as a Korean flower lady during Halloween in Korea.

I was so good at playing the part people didn't recognize me. Hell, I have photos with the Korean flower ladies and they thought it was funny. Everyone was impressed. It was far closer to Robert Downey Jr. than Al Jolsen.

But ya know, if I ever ran for office and those pics surface with a false narrative, I'll be labeled a racist. Every military member at Osan AB knows that the point of my costume was exactly the opposite, but it would be blown out of context and I'd be forced to apologize to people being offended on behalf of someone who wasn't.

Why do you guys think that Mark Zuckerberg is all of a sudden interested in religion and trips to Iowa? I'm half-joking but part of why Zuckerberg's obvious interest in politics worries me is that he has an incredible database of personal information, photos, and preferences for tens of millions of people. I would guess that the vast majority of college grads ages 35 and under have either posted (or had someone else post) a photo, video, comment, etc. on Facebook that would be problematic for a political campaign.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Image

Would you elect this guy?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Zuckerberg can waste his money Meg Whitman-style but he’s not getting elected to shit. Though it would be just like Democrats to respond to Trump by nominating someone with Trump’s money and sociopathy but without any charisma.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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brian wrote:Zuckerberg can waste his money Meg Whitman-style but he’s not getting elected to shit. Though it would be just like Democrats to respond to Trump by nominating someone with Trump’s money and sociopathy but without any charisma.


Agree 100%.

And a very basic reason why is the same reason why that woman two posts up wouldn't get elected - too Jewey.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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bfj wrote:Image

Would you elect this guy?

What a handsome woman.


And I was just thinking in terms of photos which can be misperceived. I was Rocky in Rocky Horror Picture Show on Ramstein AB too. But that might help get me elected in some places.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Pruitt wrote:
brian wrote:Zuckerberg can waste his money Meg Whitman-style but he’s not getting elected to shit. Though it would be just like Democrats to respond to Trump by nominating someone with Trump’s money and sociopathy but without any charisma.


Agree 100%.

And a very basic reason why is the same reason why that woman two posts up wouldn't get elected - too Jewey.


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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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bfj wrote:
Would you elect this guy?


Hell, yes. I'm upset this has never been posted before. Were you trying to be the woman from the Drew Carey Show?
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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The Sybian wrote:
bfj wrote:
Would you elect this guy?


Hell, yes. I'm upset this has never been posted before. Were you trying to be the woman from the Drew Carey Show?


It is Horatio Sans in drag for a SNL skit.
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Image
would you elect me?
https://imgur.com/VRy8lt5
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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The Sybian wrote:
bfj wrote:
Would you elect this guy?


Hell, yes. I'm upset this has never been posted before. Were you trying to be the woman from the Drew Carey Show?


Yessir! I was Mimi!
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Steve of phpBB wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:Well, you had a group of current and former female colleagues come out today and say he's a swell guy. We haven't seen the typical* second and third day stories of women coming out with their own accusations.

I dunno. I keep going back and forth on him resigning. If this is all that comes out, I just don't know if that's the right thing to do. But I'm with you guys, sure seems like if Tweeden's story is accurate, there almost has to be others out there.


I'm going back and forth now, too. It didn't register with me that when the picture was taken, he was a comedian, not a Senator.

A comedian in the course of making a joke that does something improper and over the line - that's different in kind from a district attorney looking for kids in divorce court that he can molest.


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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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A_B wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Nonlinear FC wrote:Well, you had a group of current and former female colleagues come out today and say he's a swell guy. We haven't seen the typical* second and third day stories of women coming out with their own accusations.

I dunno. I keep going back and forth on him resigning. If this is all that comes out, I just don't know if that's the right thing to do. But I'm with you guys, sure seems like if Tweeden's story is accurate, there almost has to be others out there.


I'm going back and forth now, too. It didn't register with me that when the picture was taken, he was a comedian, not a Senator.

A comedian in the course of making a joke that does something improper and over the line - that's different in kind from a district attorney looking for kids in divorce court that he can molest.


Second Story



Doneski.
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Johnny Carwash
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

Post by Johnny Carwash »

It's always a state fair, isn't it?
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mister d
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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"Oh, c'mon guys, its not as bad as Moore or Trump. Didn't Republicans defend HW when he was accused of the same thing? If everyone who ever hit on a woman is treated like this we won't have any politicians!"
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A_B
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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Tambor is leaving Transparent and I'm 100% conflicted about his role on Arrested Development the way some were about Franken...because I don't want to lose him from something. It sucks and I feel weird.

Dammit, can't you remember NO TOUCHING?!?!
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brian
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Re: Kevin Spacey's Career?

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A_B wrote:Tambor is leaving Transparent and I'm 100% conflicted about his role on Arrested Development the way some were about Franken...because I don't want to lose him from something. It sucks and I feel weird.

Dammit, can't you remember NO TOUCHING?!?!


He MIGHT already be done shooting his parts in AD:S5 or at least I hope so. Or I trust that Hurwitz might be clever enough to write him out in some kind of funny way.
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