A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Spoiler alert: they don't.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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A_B wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:23 pm Spoiler alert: they don't.
I agree. They're part of the culture of enabling this kind of abuse frankly. They pay lip service to defending and supporting "student-athletes" until it gets more comfortable to cozy up with their billion dollar corporate partners than actually protect teenagers from getting raped.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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The abuses with the basketball and football programs have been pretty well reported, but MSU has ultimately skated, but the addition of new reporting and additional context means I don't know how Dantonio at a minimum keeps his job.

I think the takeaway here is that this is obviously an athletic department that has no interest in doing anything other than whatever is necessary to win -- looking the other way at a doctor raping his patients, putting rapists back on the football team without a suspension. The whole athletic department should be shut down. They should have did it with Penn State and this is -- on some levels -- even MORE egregious than what went on there. (Certainly, the abuse from Nassar was worse and the cover-up was roughly about the same).

The NCAA should send a message that this shit won't be tolerated any longer and shut down the athletic department completely for at least two or three years. Let the players transfer freely if they wish. Let MSU start over again with a completely different staff in 2022 if they choose.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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If anything, Penn State reinforced the inherent worth of athletics. A massive pedophilia coverup wasn't enough to shut down some sports teams when the only reason that coverup happened was the preserve those sports teams.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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If you think these issues are with specific schools and just their athletic department you really haven't been paying attention. Blowing up the AD at a few schools doesn't deter other schools from covering anything up. It may be reinforcing it.

Take a look at some of Lou Ann Simon's past history with NCAA and prevention. She was elected to the chair of the NCAA executive committee in the wake of the Sandusky scandal. http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf ... tee_c.html

I guess this didn't work or she didn't read her own email...
Simon said she worries about ethics in college sports and at Michigan State as well. She reminded school employees by email last month of their obligation to report sexual abuse and assault. She said everyone from janitors to student-athletes have been spoken to about the issue.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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So the solution would be ... less punishment? You change the entire equation by acknowledging sexual assaults will happen and have programs know the ramifications that go beyond the person committing the assault will be in how its dealt with by the school. Right now, there's incentive to cover up because it keeps the player on the field and the program out of the headlines and because even if you're letting someone serially fuck little kids inside your buildings, you can still be right back in the top 10 in a couple years. If you burn them to the ground, completely, sacrificing the individuals who deserve to be sacrificed in the first place becomes a far easier choice for even the most ethics-void admin.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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mister d wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:39 pm So the solution would be ... less punishment? You change the entire equation by acknowledging sexual assaults will happen and have programs know the ramifications that go beyond the person committing the assault will be in how its dealt with by the school. Right now, there's incentive to cover up because it keeps the player on the field and the program out of the headlines and because even if you're letting someone serially fuck little kids inside your buildings, you can still be right back in the top 10 in a couple years. If you burn them to the ground, completely, sacrificing the individuals who deserve to be sacrificed in the first place becomes a far easier choice for even the most ethics-void admin.
Yeah, the lesson MSU learned from Penn State is that it actually makes sense to try and cover it up for as long as you can because the NCAA is toothless, fans have short memories and bad press doesn't last forever.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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I don't think punishment is the solution. If it's more punishment then there is incentive to cover it up. If it's less then you never do any prevention. Many Division I sports have long ago lost any semblance of being amateur or being for the benefit of the athletes. Take away the money that schools make on the backs of their students. Make them all non-revenue by paying players like the minor league it is or find a way to make them like FCS or division II.

$$ is the problem.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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testuser2 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:50 pm I don't think punishment is the solution. If it's more punishment then there is incentive to cover it up. If it's less then you never do any prevention. Many Division I sports have long ago lost any semblance of being amateur or being for the benefit of the athletes. Take away the money that schools make on the backs of their students. Make them all non-revenue by paying players like the minor league it is or find a way to make them like FCS or division II.

$$ is the problem.
I don't see how that literally does anything to curtail the kind of abuses documented at Penn State and Michigan State.

They should pay the players of course, but that isn't going to do anything about a school that decides it's worth it to try and protect the reputation of the school, coach and program by not acting on reports of athletic personnel preying on student-athletes (or whomever is being abused).

If Michigan State's entire athletic program gets shut down I guarantee you that if something similar happens next year at UCLA or Wichita State or Minnesota, it's going to get reported and investigated. Because if it doesn't and the NCAA finds out, then they're next. Zero tolerance policy for sexual assault coverups.

I'm not sure that you're getting that the coverup both at PSU and MSU is worse than the crime. The crime is horrible of course, but it's the failing of the institutions that allowed them to go on. Until you incentivize these places either with a carrot or a stick to respond appropriately it's just going to keep happening. The NCAA should have shut down Penn State's football program at a minimum and it should absolutely shut down Michigan State's entire athletic department.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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My high school junior told me today he’s rethinking his college plans. He had been intending to go to MSU and participate in the marching band. I’m sure he’s not the only one.

This will impact the whole university on every level.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Here's a really good piece from Lawyers, Guns and Money. I'll put a couple of quotes here because they basically line up with my thoughts.
The central point is that Michigan State’s obsession with sports success is the key to understanding both why Nassar’s reign of terror lasted so long, and why in recent years the department turned a blind eye toward or actively covered up sexual assaults by numerous athletes from the two teams responsible for funding the athletic department, football and men’s basketball.
The structural situation at MSU – an obsession with sports success, a closely connected obsession with fundraising, and a governing board that shares and intensifies those obsessions while featuring no discernible qualifications in regard to regulating a research university (none of the board members have ever worked in higher education, and only one, a lawyer, has an advanced degree) — is a very common one in contemporary American higher education. The scandal at MSU should be a cautionary tale for the many institutions that resemble Michigan State in more ways than one.
This is a failure AT EVERY LEVEL and it extends beyond football, basketball, and/or gymnastics.

I get that every school to some extent pays lip service to academics at the expense of athletic success and we can all agree there's a line maybe even a very fungible one, but once the university is complicit in covering up something of this magnitude, it needs to get nuked out of college athletics.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Customer service rep here at work had a MSU sweatshirt on yesterday and I told her that she better listen to the news next time she chooses her work attire.

And my boss is a huge MSU fan. He hasn't made a peep at all the past couple weeks about the basketball team.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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testuser2 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:50 pm I don't think punishment is the solution. If it's more punishment then there is incentive to cover it up.
If the NCAA punishes the school because their trainer or DC or point guard sexually assaulted someone, then there's incentive to cover it up (if you're a shitty person). If the NCAA punishes a school that covers up or doesn't report that sexual assault, its the deterrent we're talking about. You remove, completely, the incentive to cover up because the potential harm of the cover up is made to be 1,000,000x more harsh than the potential harm of reporting an incident.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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mister d wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:23 pm
testuser2 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:50 pm I don't think punishment is the solution. If it's more punishment then there is incentive to cover it up.
If the NCAA punishes the school because their trainer or DC or point guard sexually assaulted someone, then there's incentive to cover it up (if you're a shitty person). If the NCAA punishes a school that covers up or doesn't report that sexual assault, its the deterrent we're talking about. You remove, completely, the incentive to cover up because the potential harm of the cover up is made to be 1,000,000x more harsh than the potential harm of reporting an incident.
Yes. This isn't hard.

Just like I wish they'd let some of those banks fail instead of propping them up. Let one or some fall and the others will figure it out.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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A_B wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:48 pm
mister d wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:23 pm
testuser2 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:50 pm I don't think punishment is the solution. If it's more punishment then there is incentive to cover it up.
If the NCAA punishes the school because their trainer or DC or point guard sexually assaulted someone, then there's incentive to cover it up (if you're a shitty person). If the NCAA punishes a school that covers up or doesn't report that sexual assault, its the deterrent we're talking about. You remove, completely, the incentive to cover up because the potential harm of the cover up is made to be 1,000,000x more harsh than the potential harm of reporting an incident.
Yes. This isn't hard.

Just like I wish they'd let some of those banks fail instead of propping them up. Let one or some fall and the others will figure it out.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Dantonio at a minimum can't survive this. 16 players? Baylor all over again.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Wait. Emmett knew of 37 situations? Fuck him too. God I'm sick to my stomach.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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I don't see a scenario where Dantonio is coaching MSU in the fall. Like you said, it's basically Baylor all over again.

He could have stepped down, saved some of his rep and maybe. MAYBE. Had a chance at another head coaching job somewhere one day. But he wants to go down like Art Briles did, kicking and screaming.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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The worst part of the MSU thing and why I legitimately think the athletic department needs to be shut down is not only is it just like Baylor or just like Penn State, it's the worst parts of Penn State and Baylor combined.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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A_B wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:09 am Dantonio at a minimum can't survive this. 16 players? Baylor all over again.
Percentage-wise, Izzo is on pretty thin ice, too.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Nonlinear FC wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:40 am
A_B wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:09 am Dantonio at a minimum can't survive this. 16 players? Baylor all over again.
Percentage-wise, Izzo is on pretty thin ice, too.
I hadn't seen that but yes you are correct.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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In Nassar Case, Michigan State Wanted Famed Ex-Prosecutor to Both Examine and Defend It

"Shame" isn't a strong enough word for what the powers that be at M.S.U. should be feeling.
Michigan State portrayed Mr. Fitzgerald as reviewing the Nassar cases even as he was hired to defend the university from lawsuits.

“Michigan State led the public to believe that there had been an independent investigation,” Tom Leonard, the Republican speaker of the Michigan House of Representatives, said on Friday in an interview. “And then as we continued to dig into this, we found out it was not an independent investigation. It was an internal investigation to shield them from liability.”
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Pruitt wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:42 pm In Nassar Case, Michigan State Wanted Famed Ex-Prosecutor to Both Examine and Defend It

"Shame" isn't a strong enough word for what the powers that be at M.S.U. should be feeling.
This is right out of the Penn State playbook(Freeh report). What PSU had that MSU doesn't is a dead coach to blame and limit pushback.

Back to the punishment discussion. The penalties for Simon, Spanier, McQueary, Curley, etc.. are minor if they even get one. Increasing those penalties is something that would be a great response by lawmakers. Holding the schools to a moral code doesn't seem to be working.

An interesting dynamic is how often younger kids are on campuses for camps/clinics. For many of the non-revenue sports this is how the coaches get enough money to support themselves. Along with modifying football and basketball there needs to be much more oversight of those programs.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Pierce looking back at the Trump firing of Comey:

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/po ... y-problem/
I don’t minimize how thoroughly Comey bungled at the end of the 2016 presidential campaign. If what he’s doing now is atonement, that’s only right. He has a lot for which he should atone. But the sense of dislocation in these e-mails shows where the current propaganda war against the FBI first took root. It’s where the water first went muddy.

It is the most elemental form of the ongoing damage that is no worse than even money to keep us from ever knowing everything about the Russian ratfcking of the 2016 presidential election, and to prevent us from taking the steps we need to prevent the same thing happening in 2018 and 2020. This, of course, may be the whole point.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Pierce on the Republican party:

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/po ... -gone-mad/
Scrapie is a prion disease, similar in its effect to Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (Mad Cow Disease) and to the wasting disease that afflicts herds of deer, and to kuru, a disease first seen among tribes in Papua New Guinea that was transmitted in part through the ritual cannibalism of the tribe’s dead. Elsewhere in Asia, the custom of eating the brains of a monkey was responsible for cases of Creutzfeldt-Jacob Disease, yet another prion illness. Once established in the victim, prion disease destroys the human nervous system. It eats away at the higher functions of the brain. So, when I talk about the prion disease that afflicts the Republican Party, and the conservative movement that is its only life force any more, I do not use the metaphor idly. The party has lost what’s left of its mind.

Far too many people are far too delicate about this. The Republican Party is completely mad, and it has been going in that direction for a very long time. It has been raving through all the halls of all the governments, large and small, like a lost soul with a big knife. The symptoms of the enveloping disease have been obvious for decades, ever since Ronald Reagan served up the first helping of monkey brains in 1976, when he nearly wrested the party’s nomination from Gerald Ford. It is full-blown now, and it is general throughout the Republic. The Republican Party has infected every institution with its own private insanity.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Pierce on the student walkouts today:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... shootings/
Compared to ending an unjust war in Southeast Asia, or demanding the rights that should have accrued to you as an American at birth, what these kids are demanding doesn’t seem to be that big a deal. They would prefer not to take live fire in their classrooms and watch their friends, and prom dates, and football heroes, and beloved teachers shot down in front of them. That really doesn’t seem like that heavy a lift for an evolved democracy
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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On The Selective Memory and Hypocrisy of "Never Trump" Republicans
10) Please explain how close you came to resigning from the party when George W. Bush’s campaign slandered John McCain’s child during the 2000 Republican primary in South Carolina.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Largely citing a ProPublica piece, but...

Kobach Takedown Better With Pierce's Comments
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Pruitt wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:28 am Largely citing a ProPublica piece, but...

Kobach Takedown Better With Pierce's Comments
Good lord.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... cialflowTW
What is there to be learned about Jason Kessler that we don't already know? What "context" was provided by having Kessler rank the races by intelligence?

My sneaking suspicion is that the elite political media wants to make the forces that produce our Kesslers and our Goodwins as mysterious and unfathomable as possible, so that we don't have to face the fact that they are produced by something that has been fundamental to the American identity since its founding, the same thing that kept a memorial to the treasonous Robert E. Lee in that park all those years, and that kept the banner of sedition flying proudly over the South Carolina state capitol until Dylann Roof gave us all a vivid illustration of that for which the flag really stood.
...
I'm wondering now if we aren't in a kind of extended Reconstruction period in the wake of the triumphs of the civil rights movement and the demise of Jim Crow and, ultimately, a reckoning with the truth of our history that we have tried mightily to avoid. Certainly, the resistance to this second Reconstruction is similar in tone and rhetoric to the language and actions that broke the first Reconstruction. The president* today is even crazier than crazy old Andy Johnson was, and he seems to have just as deft a touch for the politics of hate and division, as well as an instinct for salving the vestigial consciences of his most fervent followers.

In 1866, President Andrew Johnson told a crowd in St. Louis:

"But while I have strived to emancipate the colored man, I have felt, and now feel, that we have a great many white men who need emancipation."


And today? You're not racist. They're racist. And today, from the president*, there were "many fine people" on both sides in Charlottesville. Pity some of them wound up under the wheels of James Fields, Jr.'s Dodge. Jason Kessler ranks the races and Scott Goodwin's "path" leads him to a parking garage with a pipe in his hands. And all over the South, the statues come down, and there's blood on the streets in Mr. Jefferson's town.
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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My last free Esquire article for the month was a good one:
Nothing about the previous president*’s desire to be a strongman was performative. That becomes clearer every day. He really meant to become the American Erdogan, and he had enough like-minded people around him to make that happen. And, as we learned to our horror on January 6, he was capable of summoning mob violence to make his case for him.
"...McCarthy earlier this week suggested Trump “bears responsibility” for the attack. “I also think everybody across this country has some responsibility,” he said in an apparent backtrack to Van Susteren, citing divisive rhetoric on social media from people on both sides of the aisle."

I was home all day January 6, Mr. Leader. I have witnesses. I spent the night watching you lead your caucus, while the bodies of the dead were still warm, in voting for the very thing that the mob demanded. Here’s a big bowl of dicks. On the house. Bon appetit!
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Re: A thread for Charles Pierce columns and any related discussions

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He was on Kimmel a couple days ago.

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