Tennis 2018

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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EdRomero
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by EdRomero »

DaveInSeattle wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:46 pm Damn, Serena has the total meltdown. She was getting his ass kicked anyways, but loses her shit when the umpire gives her a warning about getting coaching during the match. Escalates to a point penalty when she smashes a racket, and then a game penalty when she berates the umpire.
Good for her. There is constant communication and coaching between players and the coaching box, and this is the time the chair umpire decides to act on it?
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by degenerasian »

Tom Rinaldi playing the role of Gary Bettman presenting the Stanley Cup. The entire crowd is booing. Osaka is taking it personally which is really unfair.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Joe K »

I agree that the non coaching rule is enforced very arbitrarily, to the point that it should just be eliminated. But at the same time, Serena totally overreacted. I don’t care what sport it is, you’re not going to get away with accusing an official of cheating. And by blowing up the way she did, the whole story is about the umpire, as opposed to Osaka’s great performance all tournament long.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by EdRomero »

I think Jimmy Connors got away with it, but I agree with you.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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The whole 'history in the making' is getting to Serena. ESPN absolutely milks it for it's viewers proclaming Serena the best ever. The commentators are cheerleaders. The crowd wants it so much they are booing the trophy presentation. It even went as far as reporters today wishing Serena well to even and then eventually break the record of that bigoted homophobe. This year she's lost the final at the french and now the final in New York. She broke down today because she really wanted it and the weight is on her shoulders. The longer it goes that's she one behind more of a toll it takes. And she's 37.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:04 pm I agree that the non coaching rule is enforced very arbitrarily, to the point that it should just be eliminated. But at the same time, Serena totally overreacted. I don’t care what sport it is, you’re not going to get away with accusing an official of cheating. And by blowing up the way she did, the whole story is about the umpire, as opposed to Osaka’s great performance all tournament long.
plus who cares, it's a warning. The stuff that carried an actual penalty was pretty obviously deserved.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Joe K »

Rex wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:03 pm
Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:04 pm I agree that the non coaching rule is enforced very arbitrarily, to the point that it should just be eliminated. But at the same time, Serena totally overreacted. I don’t care what sport it is, you’re not going to get away with accusing an official of cheating. And by blowing up the way she did, the whole story is about the umpire, as opposed to Osaka’s great performance all tournament long.
plus who cares, it's a warning. The stuff that carried an actual penalty was pretty obviously deserved.
Yeah, I can’t believe how many people on Twitter were stanning for Serena on this. I don’t care what sport it is or if you’re a man or woman, you can’t fucking call an official a cheater and expect them to let that slide. It’s one thing to say they made a bad call; it’s another to question their integrity.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:27 pm
Rex wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:03 pm
Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:04 pm I agree that the non coaching rule is enforced very arbitrarily, to the point that it should just be eliminated. But at the same time, Serena totally overreacted. I don’t care what sport it is, you’re not going to get away with accusing an official of cheating. And by blowing up the way she did, the whole story is about the umpire, as opposed to Osaka’s great performance all tournament long.
plus who cares, it's a warning. The stuff that carried an actual penalty was pretty obviously deserved.
Yeah, I can’t believe how many people on Twitter were stanning for Serena on this. I don’t care what sport it is or if you’re a man or woman, you can’t fucking call an official a cheater and expect them to let that slide. It’s one thing to say they made a bad call; it’s another to question their integrity.
LOL. People have screamed far worse things at officials with less penalty.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by degenerasian »

Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:27 pm
Rex wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:03 pm
Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:04 pm I agree that the non coaching rule is enforced very arbitrarily, to the point that it should just be eliminated. But at the same time, Serena totally overreacted. I don’t care what sport it is, you’re not going to get away with accusing an official of cheating. And by blowing up the way she did, the whole story is about the umpire, as opposed to Osaka’s great performance all tournament long.
plus who cares, it's a warning. The stuff that carried an actual penalty was pretty obviously deserved.
Yeah, I can’t believe how many people on Twitter were stanning for Serena on this. I don’t care what sport it is or if you’re a man or woman, you can’t fucking call an official a cheater and expect them to let that slide. It’s one thing to say they made a bad call; it’s another to question their integrity.
They've been force fed that Serena is queen. Do a search for Chris Evert. She being called a traitor for pointing out that the coach was coaching before the warning was given.

"He saying to go forward"
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Joe K »

Giff wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:05 am
Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:27 pm
Rex wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:03 pm
Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:04 pm I agree that the non coaching rule is enforced very arbitrarily, to the point that it should just be eliminated. But at the same time, Serena totally overreacted. I don’t care what sport it is, you’re not going to get away with accusing an official of cheating. And by blowing up the way she did, the whole story is about the umpire, as opposed to Osaka’s great performance all tournament long.
plus who cares, it's a warning. The stuff that carried an actual penalty was pretty obviously deserved.
Yeah, I can’t believe how many people on Twitter were stanning for Serena on this. I don’t care what sport it is or if you’re a man or woman, you can’t fucking call an official a cheater and expect them to let that slide. It’s one thing to say they made a bad call; it’s another to question their integrity.
LOL. People have screamed far worse things at officials with less penalty.
1. Serena had already been assessed a warning and a point penalty for the racket smash before the verbal abuse began.

2. I’d guess that a lot of officials, in many sports, would rather get cursed out than accused of cheating a competitor. Hypothetically speaking, what do you think would get a bigger penalty for Draymond Green: yelling “fuck you, motherfucker” at a ref or accusing a ref of intentionally trying to make the Warriors lose? You’re a Rockets fan, you should remember Stern’s reaction when Jeff Van Gundy made comments to that effect. He more or less threatened to ban Van Gundy from the NBA if that continued.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Joe K »

degenerasian wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:07 am
Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:27 pm
Rex wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:03 pm
Joe K wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:04 pm I agree that the non coaching rule is enforced very arbitrarily, to the point that it should just be eliminated. But at the same time, Serena totally overreacted. I don’t care what sport it is, you’re not going to get away with accusing an official of cheating. And by blowing up the way she did, the whole story is about the umpire, as opposed to Osaka’s great performance all tournament long.
plus who cares, it's a warning. The stuff that carried an actual penalty was pretty obviously deserved.
Yeah, I can’t believe how many people on Twitter were stanning for Serena on this. I don’t care what sport it is or if you’re a man or woman, you can’t fucking call an official a cheater and expect them to let that slide. It’s one thing to say they made a bad call; it’s another to question their integrity.
They've been force fed that Serena is queen. Do a search for Chris Evert. She being called a traitor for pointing out that the coach was coaching before the warning was given.

"He saying to go forward"
Serena is a legendary athlete, with an incredibly inspiring biography. She also is a famously ungracious loser with a history of crossing the line with her treatment of officials.

Both these things can be true and recognizing the latter doesn’t make the former less true. But tennis coverage, moreso than most sports, is driven by deference to the superstars. It also drives me nuts how Nadal is “injured” every time he gets upset in a Grand Slam, which inevitably diverts attention from the guy who beats him. This has happened repeatedly, including in the Del Potro match on Friday.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Joe K »



Also, the fact that Boone was ejected kind of supports my point. Serena was getting outplayed by Osaka, she grossly overreacted to a perhaps dubious coaching *warning* and now the story is about Serena’s alleged mistreatment instead of about the very likable 20 year old who just blew threw the US Open draw in incredibly convincing fashion.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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I don't think it was a meltdown, I think it was a calculated move to mark her territory against a young opponent. The kind of thing that really successful people do from time to time, only this time it backfired. I think the post-match reaction was calculated too. We're talking about someone who is at the absolute apex of what she does, and a part of her profession happens to be intimidating her opponents.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Also, can we all agree that the very worst actors in all of this were the New York fans? Come on, I shouldn't have to be the one to make this observation.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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They are Serena worshipers, not tennis fans.

Just listen to any Serena match on ESPN, it's like the other girl doesn't exist.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Also, I’d like to see the officials have the latitude to get out of the chair. Perhaps getting out of his chair and being able to stand near her he would have had an better opportunity to defuse it. She wouldn’t have had to shout up at him then and they could have had a calmer conversation.

Of course, the argument back is it could lead to direct confrontation but I think that’s rare in all sports.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Rex wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:04 am Also, can we all agree that the very worst actors in all of this were the New York fans? Come on, I shouldn't have to be the one to make this observation.
The worst actor in all of this is Serena.

It’s just who she is: a nasty, petty person.
This is the original exchange Williams had with the umpire Eva Asderaki, a respected official who has been in the chair at many grand slam finals:

Asderaki: "It's her point."

Williams: "I don't understand."

A: "Because when you called out, she got distracted."

W: "Then maybe you should replay the point. I'm not giving her the game."

A: "This is not a replay. It's her point because when you shouted she went to the ball and touched the ball."

W: "Are you the one that screwed me over the last time here? You're nobody. You're ugly on the inside."

The personal abuse continued along those lines at the next changeover.

"We were in America last time I checked," she barked at Asderaki. "You're totally out of control. You're a hater and you're unattractive inside. What a loser."

This purblind sense of entitlement painted a sad picture of a fine athlete "out of control". But about half an hour later – time enough to reflect on her words and actions – Williams was unmoved.

In among the sycophancy that covers every American tennis press conference in suffocating honey, there were several tough questions. This is the verbatim transcript of the most pointed exchange:

Question: "You're one of our greatest champions and an elite athlete, a real role model. Do you think it's important for top-level athletes, even in tremendous heat of the moment, to treat refs and officials with respect?"

Williams: "Um, I don't know. I think that, you know, when you're an athlete, whether you're looking at a basketball player or football player or tennis players, these athletes, we train all our lives since I was three – and I lie about my age a lot, but I'm 29. [Smiling.] You know, we live for these moments, you know. Everyone lives to be, you know, in the final of Wimbledon or the final at the US Open. Whatever happens in that moment, you live for them and we breathe for them, and hopefully I'll be back for them."

At no point, does she want to engage in the debate. Her excuse is that her entire energy is devoted to the job in front of her, that nothing else matters: opponents, officials, rules, pesky media questions.

Under no circumstances, though, was she going to play by anybody else's rules.

The problem with that is that these are the only rules in town. Whatever she thinks, tennis is not the exclusive plaything of Serena Williams.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Joe K wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:29 am2. I’d guess that a lot of officials, in many sports, would rather get cursed out than accused of cheating a competitor. Hypothetically speaking, what do you think would get a bigger penalty for Draymond Green: yelling “fuck you, motherfucker” at a ref or accusing a ref of intentionally trying to make the Warriors lose? You’re a Rockets fan, you should remember Stern’s reaction when Jeff Van Gundy made comments to that effect. He more or less threatened to ban Van Gundy from the NBA if that continued.
On the flip side, she was pissed because he accused her of cheating. I'd have been pissed as well if it weren't true.

I'm not excusing calling the official a thief, but as many others have noted, they are called similar or worse all the time. And in this case, she specified the meaning of "thief" in this case - that he took a point for her for something that wasn't happening.

I think she was definitely wrong for verbally abusing the refs, but just like in American courtroom, the penalty for infractions has to be consistently applied to everyone. Do any of you think that same ref would have given a game penalty to Federer for the same thing? Do you think it might have something to do with a powerful white guy not being comfortable with being yelled at by a black woman?
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Shirley wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:07 pm Do any of you think that same ref would have given a game penalty to Federer for the same thing? Do you think it might have something to do with a powerful white guy not being comfortable with being yelled at by a black woman?
The same umpire has given out violations at Grand Slams to Nadal, Djokovic and Andy Murray. The Nadal one was for taking too long between serves and he stripped him of a first serve. Djokovic got docked for smashing his racket and Murray for verbal abuse. He may not have given game penalties to those guys, but keep in mind that tennis has a progressive discipline system where it goes from warning to point penalty to game penalty. Especially after she got the point penalty for smashing her racket, Serena had to know to keep her cool.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Shirley wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:07 pm
Joe K wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:29 am2. I’d guess that a lot of officials, in many sports, would rather get cursed out than accused of cheating a competitor. Hypothetically speaking, what do you think would get a bigger penalty for Draymond Green: yelling “fuck you, motherfucker” at a ref or accusing a ref of intentionally trying to make the Warriors lose? You’re a Rockets fan, you should remember Stern’s reaction when Jeff Van Gundy made comments to that effect. He more or less threatened to ban Van Gundy from the NBA if that continued.
On the flip side, she was pissed because he accused her of cheating. I'd have been pissed as well if it weren't true.

I'm not excusing calling the official a thief, but as many others have noted, they are called similar or worse all the time. And in this case, she specified the meaning of "thief" in this case - that he took a point for her for something that wasn't happening.

I think she was definitely wrong for verbally abusing the refs, but just like in American courtroom, the penalty for infractions has to be consistently applied to everyone. Do any of you think that same ref would have given a game penalty to Federer for the same thing? Do you think it might have something to do with a powerful white guy not being comfortable with being yelled at by a black woman?
Except that it did happen. Her coach admitted to signaling to her from the stands. That’s against the rules. I don’t think the fact she wasn’t paying attention to him matters. She got hung up on that, but actually, her issue is with her coach, not the umpire who was simply following the letter of the rulebook.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Joe K »

Also, for all the claims that Serena is a victim of a double standard based on her gender or race, she's also benefiting from a huge double standard based on her nationality. If Osaka were competing for the USA (she has dual citizenship and USA Tennis recruited her hard) and a non-American veteran like Sharapova did and said what Serena did, the reaction from American fans and sports media would be totally different. No one would be criticizing the chair umpire in that scenario.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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EnochRoot wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:34 pm
Shirley wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:07 pm
Joe K wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:29 am2. I’d guess that a lot of officials, in many sports, would rather get cursed out than accused of cheating a competitor. Hypothetically speaking, what do you think would get a bigger penalty for Draymond Green: yelling “fuck you, motherfucker” at a ref or accusing a ref of intentionally trying to make the Warriors lose? You’re a Rockets fan, you should remember Stern’s reaction when Jeff Van Gundy made comments to that effect. He more or less threatened to ban Van Gundy from the NBA if that continued.
On the flip side, she was pissed because he accused her of cheating. I'd have been pissed as well if it weren't true.

I'm not excusing calling the official a thief, but as many others have noted, they are called similar or worse all the time. And in this case, she specified the meaning of "thief" in this case - that he took a point for her for something that wasn't happening.

I think she was definitely wrong for verbally abusing the refs, but just like in American courtroom, the penalty for infractions has to be consistently applied to everyone. Do any of you think that same ref would have given a game penalty to Federer for the same thing? Do you think it might have something to do with a powerful white guy not being comfortable with being yelled at by a black woman?
Except that it did happen. Her coach admitted to signaling to her from the stands. That’s against the rules. I don’t think the fact she wasn’t paying attention to him matters. She got hung up on that, but actually, her issue is with her coach, not the umpire who was simply following the letter of the rulebook.
If she didn't see her coach, how is she being coached from the stands? Again, I get that the umpire was following the letter of the rulebook, but in any sort of sports officiating, you have to apply subjective judgement all the time. If not, they'd just turn it over to the automatic line sensors in tennis.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Plus she was totally banking on the Asian girl folding under the increased intensity she was stirring up.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Asian woman. Asian lady. Not a girl. She is 20.

(sorry, pet peeve)
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Shirley wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:48 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:34 pm
Shirley wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:07 pm
Joe K wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:29 am2. I’d guess that a lot of officials, in many sports, would rather get cursed out than accused of cheating a competitor. Hypothetically speaking, what do you think would get a bigger penalty for Draymond Green: yelling “fuck you, motherfucker” at a ref or accusing a ref of intentionally trying to make the Warriors lose? You’re a Rockets fan, you should remember Stern’s reaction when Jeff Van Gundy made comments to that effect. He more or less threatened to ban Van Gundy from the NBA if that continued.
On the flip side, she was pissed because he accused her of cheating. I'd have been pissed as well if it weren't true.

I'm not excusing calling the official a thief, but as many others have noted, they are called similar or worse all the time. And in this case, she specified the meaning of "thief" in this case - that he took a point for her for something that wasn't happening.

I think she was definitely wrong for verbally abusing the refs, but just like in American courtroom, the penalty for infractions has to be consistently applied to everyone. Do any of you think that same ref would have given a game penalty to Federer for the same thing? Do you think it might have something to do with a powerful white guy not being comfortable with being yelled at by a black woman?
Except that it did happen. Her coach admitted to signaling to her from the stands. That’s against the rules. I don’t think the fact she wasn’t paying attention to him matters. She got hung up on that, but actually, her issue is with her coach, not the umpire who was simply following the letter of the rulebook.
If she didn't see her coach, how is she being coached from the stands? Again, I get that the umpire was following the letter of the rulebook, but in any sort of sports officiating, you have to apply subjective judgement all the time. If not, they'd just turn it over to the automatic line sensors in tennis.
Whether or not she saw him isn’t relevant. What matters is the coach was caught attempting relay signals to their player in a match.
She was in full-on meltdown mode when she brought it back up, as if she wasn’t aware the warning had already been issued. She wouldn’t let it go, and then called his professional ethics into question, which forced his hand to penalize her a game.

I mean, I get that she’s faced adversity in her life as a black tennis star, but yesterday was entirely her fault. She’s got that history of melting down when things get bad, too.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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It is never Serenas fault
But he wasn’t going to take it from a woman pointing a finger at him and speaking in a tone of aggression. So he gave Williams that third violation for “verbal abuse” and a whole game penalty, and now it was 5-3, and we will never know whether young Osaka really won the 2018 U.S. Open or had it handed to her by a man who was going to make Serena Williams feel his power.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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degenerasian wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:05 pm It is never Serenas fault
But he wasn’t going to take it from a woman pointing a finger at him and speaking in a tone of aggression. So he gave Williams that third violation for “verbal abuse” and a whole game penalty, and now it was 5-3, and we will never know whether young Osaka really won the 2018 U.S. Open or had it handed to her by a man who was going to make Serena Williams feel his power.
Sally Jennings, who wrote a book with Lance Armstrong and wrote some of the most asinine defenses of Brady and the Patriots when they got caught cheating, is taking the side of a superstar athlete? Speaking truth to power once again!

ETA: We will never know whether Osaka won the US Open? GTFOH. She dropped one set in seven matches and her margin in games won was 84-34 for the tournament. I’d say we know that she’s a deserving champion.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Want more?

The unfair treatment displayed toward Serena Williams at the US Open is further proof that, in tennis, women are subjected to a double standard. That standard is particularly glaring in the case of female athletes of color.
Media is insane.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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I just fundamentally disagree with the bulk of you guys that see this as such a cut-and-dry situation.

The warning on the coaching has been pretty roundly criticized as being arbitrary. And the "verbal abuse"... If you guys don't see the double standard there, we can just agree to disagree. He had it in his power to give her a soft warning (knock it off or I'll give you a game violation), which happens ALL THE TIME and he decided to just go straight there.

He has leeway and discretion. This wasn't a "she said x, that's an automatic violation." The racket breaking, that is black and white. The other two were pretty much bullshit in that situation.

I can totally understand criticizing her for not letting the first warning go (see first sentence.) Osaka was playing an excellent match and Serena started to spiral. But in a CHAMPIONSHIP match, for the umpire to insert himself in such a major way... I just don't think it's at all appropriate.
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Re: Tennis 2018

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Nonlinear FC wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:03 am I just fundamentally disagree with the bulk of you guys that see this as such a cut-and-dry situation.

The warning on the coaching has been pretty roundly criticized as being arbitrary. And the "verbal abuse"... If you guys don't see the double standard there, we can just agree to disagree. He had it in his power to give her a soft warning (knock it off or I'll give you a game violation), which happens ALL THE TIME and he decided to just go straight there.

He has leeway and discretion. This wasn't a "she said x, that's an automatic violation." The racket breaking, that is black and white. The other two were pretty much bullshit in that situation.

I can totally understand criticizing her for not letting the first warning go (see first sentence.) Osaka was playing an excellent match and Serena started to spiral. But in a CHAMPIONSHIP match, for the umpire to insert himself in such a major way... I just don't think it's at all appropriate.
Except it's Serena, who has a well established history of this sort of behavior. She essentially wagged the dog / weaponized a victim narrative in real time, and she made it exponentially worse for her and everybody around her.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by degenerasian »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:03 am I just fundamentally disagree with the bulk of you guys that see this as such a cut-and-dry situation.

The warning on the coaching has been pretty roundly criticized as being arbitrary. And the "verbal abuse"... If you guys don't see the double standard there, we can just agree to disagree. He had it in his power to give her a soft warning (knock it off or I'll give you a game violation), which happens ALL THE TIME and he decided to just go straight there.

He has leeway and discretion. This wasn't a "she said x, that's an automatic violation." The racket breaking, that is black and white. The other two were pretty much bullshit in that situation.

I can totally understand criticizing her for not letting the first warning go (see first sentence.) Osaka was playing an excellent match and Serena started to spiral. But in a CHAMPIONSHIP match, for the umpire to insert himself in such a major way... I just don't think it's at all appropriate.
Those all legit points which I agree. The umpire could have made a mistake. He could have handled the situation better. Perhaps this umpire is a hard ass.

But it's not sexist.

Same umpire here with Djokovic.

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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Nonlinear FC »

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Last edited by Nonlinear FC on Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Nonlinear FC »

EnochRoot wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:07 am
Nonlinear FC wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:03 am I just fundamentally disagree with the bulk of you guys that see this as such a cut-and-dry situation.

The warning on the coaching has been pretty roundly criticized as being arbitrary. And the "verbal abuse"... If you guys don't see the double standard there, we can just agree to disagree. He had it in his power to give her a soft warning (knock it off or I'll give you a game violation), which happens ALL THE TIME and he decided to just go straight there.

He has leeway and discretion. This wasn't a "she said x, that's an automatic violation." The racket breaking, that is black and white. The other two were pretty much bullshit in that situation.

I can totally understand criticizing her for not letting the first warning go (see first sentence.) Osaka was playing an excellent match and Serena started to spiral. But in a CHAMPIONSHIP match, for the umpire to insert himself in such a major way... I just don't think it's at all appropriate.
Except it's Serena, who has a well established history of this sort of behavior. She essentially wagged the dog / weaponized a victim narrative in real time, and she made it exponentially worse for her and everybody around her.
That really doesn't address my point that the umpire put up 2 violations in a championship match when he really didn't need to do so. The idea that his is 100 percent on Serena is just insane to me.

Again, I'm not saying she's blameless, but the narrative in here sure seems to completely absolve this umpire. I can't get behind that, at all. Dude shouldn't be in charge of a match of that magnitude if he can't find it in himself to decrease the tension.

Like I said, he very easily could've given her a soft warning and told her he'd heard enough, next thing she said she's getting rung up. And I'll repeat, this happens ALL THE TIME.

I'm not a big fan of Serena's, and I agree that her past caught up to her on Saturday. But, really, if you're being objective, a full game penalty in that situation is extreme.

It's not just the media saying this, it's a lot of professional tennis players.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by degenerasian »

If the media wants to talk about sexism, they should be all over this.

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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Joe K »

While the umpire could have given Serena a warning, she ripped him during multiple changeovers. It’s not like he immediately hit her with the penalty. Also, by not enforcing rules that would otherwise apply because it’s a Championship match, an umpire is placing a thumb on the scale in a different way. Rex’s point about the interplay between Serena’s acrions and the crowd is an astute one. And again, I just find it really hard to believe that if the nationalities of the players were reversed that Ramos would be taking heat. The same people criticizing Ramos would be ripshit if an umpire gave a pass to an Australian player acting like that against a young American player vying for her first Grand Slam in the Aussie Open Final.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Nonlinear FC »

degenerasian wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:12 am
Nonlinear FC wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:03 am I just fundamentally disagree with the bulk of you guys that see this as such a cut-and-dry situation.

The warning on the coaching has been pretty roundly criticized as being arbitrary. And the "verbal abuse"... If you guys don't see the double standard there, we can just agree to disagree. He had it in his power to give her a soft warning (knock it off or I'll give you a game violation), which happens ALL THE TIME and he decided to just go straight there.

He has leeway and discretion. This wasn't a "she said x, that's an automatic violation." The racket breaking, that is black and white. The other two were pretty much bullshit in that situation.

I can totally understand criticizing her for not letting the first warning go (see first sentence.) Osaka was playing an excellent match and Serena started to spiral. But in a CHAMPIONSHIP match, for the umpire to insert himself in such a major way... I just don't think it's at all appropriate.
Those all legit points which I agree. The umpire could have made a mistake. He could have handled the situation better. Perhaps this umpire is a hard ass.

But it's not sexist.

Same umpire here with Djokovic.

First off, yes, he is known to be a hard ass.

Secondly, I'm not really prepared to go all in on something we will never get a definitive answer to. I will say that a lot of tennis players on Twitter are saying men get away with a lot worse than what Serena did and don't get a warning.

So, again, without getting into sexism or racism, I just think this guy doesn't have the right temperament to be in the chair in this type of setting. And skimming this thread, the reaction of most folks was to go all in on Serena without acknowledging there were two dancing to this shitty song.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Joe K wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:25 am While the umpire could have given Serena a warning, she ripped him during multiple changeovers. It’s not like he immediately hit her with the penalty. Also, by not enforcing rules that would otherwise apply because it’s a Championship match, an umpire is placing a thumb on the scale in a different way. Rex’s point about the interplay between Serena’s acrions and the crowd is an astute one. And again, I just find it really hard to believe that if the nationalities of the players were reversed that Ramos would be taking heat. The same people criticizing Ramos would be ripshit if an umpire gave a pass to an Australian player acting like that against a young American player vying for her first Grand Slam in the Aussie Open Final.
It's not "giving a pass" it is managing the match without affecting the outcome in such a severe way. Again, this is not a black and white, cut and dry sport. The umpire has leeway and discretion. That is why you've NEVER seen this happen in such an important match before. Serena didn't completely lose her shit, not even close. Now, if Ramos gives her a soft warning and she keeps going? Ring her up. But a full game in the second set of the championship? C'mon, man.

And here's a fun twist on your hypothetical, what if this was done to a cute white American. You think there'd be ANYBODY defending the umpire in that case?

I get that Serena has built up this persecution complex. I'm really not a big fan of hers. But I just can't come away from Saturday's match with a determination that Serena did all of this to herself. That umpire played a very big and outsized role in that match.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by EnochRoot »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:25 am
degenerasian wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:12 am
Nonlinear FC wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:03 am I just fundamentally disagree with the bulk of you guys that see this as such a cut-and-dry situation.

The warning on the coaching has been pretty roundly criticized as being arbitrary. And the "verbal abuse"... If you guys don't see the double standard there, we can just agree to disagree. He had it in his power to give her a soft warning (knock it off or I'll give you a game violation), which happens ALL THE TIME and he decided to just go straight there.

He has leeway and discretion. This wasn't a "she said x, that's an automatic violation." The racket breaking, that is black and white. The other two were pretty much bullshit in that situation.

I can totally understand criticizing her for not letting the first warning go (see first sentence.) Osaka was playing an excellent match and Serena started to spiral. But in a CHAMPIONSHIP match, for the umpire to insert himself in such a major way... I just don't think it's at all appropriate.
Those all legit points which I agree. The umpire could have made a mistake. He could have handled the situation better. Perhaps this umpire is a hard ass.

But it's not sexist.

Same umpire here with Djokovic.

First off, yes, he is known to be a hard ass.

Secondly, I'm not really prepared to go all in on something we will never get a definitive answer to. I will say that a lot of tennis players on Twitter are saying men get away with a lot worse than what Serena did and don't get a warning.

So, again, without getting into sexism or racism, I just think this guy doesn't have the right temperament to be in the chair in this type of setting. And skimming this thread, the reaction of most folks was to go all in on Serena without acknowledging there were two dancing to this shitty song.
This is why I'm saying she was wagging the dog and weaponizing victimhood. It's what she does. Champion of social justice? I guess. She sure chooses when to go off though.
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Re: Tennis 2018

Post by Nonlinear FC »

And I don't really disagree with that, Enoch, per my post about her persecution complex. Bringing up her daughter seemed really calculated and kind of gross.

I'm not saying she's blameless, at all. She should've cut the shit after she broke her racket. BUT, as I said, it's not just Serena and Billy Jean and Sally Jenkins calling out a double standard. There are a lot of professional men tennis players out today saying there's a double standard.

I mean, lost in all of this is that we just saw the passing of the torch to a woman that absolutely rips it up on the court. I'm looking forward to the next generation of players coming along. The days of Serena intimidating all who come before her way are over. I think we can all get behind that.
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