shirley (emotional support thread)

Okay . . . let's try this again.

Moderators: Shirley, Sabo, brian, rass, DaveInSeattle

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

Shirley wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:57 pmWhat Bennett's done in the ACC has been nearly unprecedented. To do all that, but suggest that somehow he doesn't know how to win the slightly different tournament games just doesn't make any sense.
Is that true? In hockey, there's definitely a stylistic difference out west where you could build to dominate your division but not that success see it carry over against everyone else. Not saying that's the case because I have no idea if there's some unique brand of ACC basketball, but I don't think that comment is universally wrong.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

mister d wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:26 am
Shirley wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:57 pmWhat Bennett's done in the ACC has been nearly unprecedented. To do all that, but suggest that somehow he doesn't know how to win the slightly different tournament games just doesn't make any sense.
Is that true? In hockey, there's definitely a stylistic difference out west where you could build to dominate your division but not that success see it carry over against everyone else. Not saying that's the case because I have no idea if there's some unique brand of ACC basketball, but I don't think that comment is universally wrong.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've never seen anyone articulate an actual difference and show that it's real. Once upon a time, the thinking was that the ACC was a finesse league and couldn't do well in the NCAAs, because they'd then have Big East and Big Ten refs who'd let physical play go. Then, UNC and Duke started winning titles every few years and people stopped saying that.

Lately, I've heard the opposite - that UVA fouls every possession, but ACC refs don't call it because they know UVA is supposed to be good. But in the tournament, refs will call all these fouls and UVA will flop. Well, they did flop, but not because of foul calls.

In most sports, hockey included, the idea is that fast-paced, offensive-minded teams tend to do well in the regular season, but not in the playoffs when things get serious and bog down. Defense wins championships, right?

Also, nowadays, there are a ton of inter-conference games between major programs - the teams you'll see in the tournament - before conference play starts. I can't say with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot more of that than there used to be, mostly due to the influence of ESPN looking for good games to show. And well, over the last four seasons, UVA has lost exactly 6 non-conference games, including the UMBC loss. So, if there's some sort of stylistic play that the ACC doesn't know about, but the rest of the country does, where is that showing up?
Totally Kafkaesque
Joe K
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Joe K »

mister d wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:26 am
Shirley wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:57 pmWhat Bennett's done in the ACC has been nearly unprecedented. To do all that, but suggest that somehow he doesn't know how to win the slightly different tournament games just doesn't make any sense.
Is that true? In hockey, there's definitely a stylistic difference out west where you could build to dominate your division but not that success see it carry over against everyone else. Not saying that's the case because I have no idea if there's some unique brand of ACC basketball, but I don't think that comment is universally wrong.
The possible distinction I see has less to do with the ACC specifically than with the fact that offensively-proficient basketball teams will often ramp up their defense and focus in the postseason. This definitely happens in the NBA (see: almost every LeBron team for the last 7 years) and I think it also happens to a lesser degree in the NCAA. So a team like 2015 Duke may look bad on defense for much of the regular season but then play much better late in the year. Kentucky’s teams in 2011 and 2014 were also very talented, but also inconsistent regular season teams that cranked it up in the tourney and made Final Four runs. Conversely, UVA may be already be playing at or near it’s ceiling (especially defensively) in the regular season. However, it’s worth remembering that in 2016, UVA was within a crazy/fluky Syracuse second half run of making the Final Four. So Bennett has come pretty damn close already.
User avatar
Rex
The Dude
Posts: 7264
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Rex »

Virginia emphasizes defensive rebounding, and that is all Bennett and his Wisconsin roots. Most top ACC teams do not care about defensive rebounding at all--if they are good at it, it is because of individual players and not scheme. Most of the top ACC teams (especially UNC) are excellent offensive rebounding teams year after year. But like good pitching beats good hitting, good OR can be stopped by a team that dedicates all resources to defensive rebounding. And Virginia is very good at getting rebounding position and (yes) doing things that could be called fouls to get such position. That (along with the pace) is their biggest stylistic fingerprint I think. They didn't get very many defensive rebounds in the second half against UMBC because there was nothing to rebound.
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

Joe K wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:08 am
mister d wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:26 am
Shirley wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:57 pmWhat Bennett's done in the ACC has been nearly unprecedented. To do all that, but suggest that somehow he doesn't know how to win the slightly different tournament games just doesn't make any sense.
Is that true? In hockey, there's definitely a stylistic difference out west where you could build to dominate your division but not that success see it carry over against everyone else. Not saying that's the case because I have no idea if there's some unique brand of ACC basketball, but I don't think that comment is universally wrong.
The possible distinction I see has less to do with the ACC specifically than with the fact that offensively-proficient basketball teams will often ramp up their defense and focus in the postseason. This definitely happens in the NBA (see: almost every LeBron team for the last 7 years) and I think it also happens to a lesser degree in the NCAA. So a team like 2015 Duke may look bad on defense for much of the regular season but then play much better late in the year. Kentucky’s teams in 2011 and 2014 were also very talented, but also inconsistent regular season teams that cranked it up in the tourney and made Final Four runs. Conversely, UVA may be already be playing at or near it’s ceiling (especially defensively) in the regular season. However, it’s worth remembering that in 2016, UVA was within a crazy/fluky Syracuse second half run of making the Final Four. So Bennett has come pretty damn close already.
Yes, now this I agree with. There's no question Duke and Kentucky have higher ceilings than pretty much any other teams out there this year. Duke in particular. I figured Duke was the favorite entering the tournament for that very reason. This season looks a lot like the 2015 one to me, but their defense is actually better (both were pretty horrid early in the year).

For Virginia, this sort of thing was only a potential issue in the two losses to Michigan State. In both cases, talented MSU teams were underseeded. I'm not sure they really fit the mold of talented underachievers getting their shit together in the tournament, but when in doubt, it's always safe to bet on talent.

It doesn't explain the Syracuse or UMBC losses though. As Joe said, the Syracuse loss was one of those games where everything went right for 'Cuse and everything wrong for UVA over the last 5-6 minutes. UVA beat the press and missed layups 2-3 times in the period. If one or two of those go in, UVA makes the Final Four, and the label of postseason underachievers never happens.

Without that pressure of trying to prove to the doubters, would UVA have come out so flat and tight against UMBC? Impossible to say. But if there's anything impeding UVA in the postseason now, it's the pressure of that negative history. The team clearly showed nerves Friday night that hadn't been seen all year. Right now, the biggest problem is in UVA's heads, not their system.
Totally Kafkaesque
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

Rex wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:28 amThey didn't get very many defensive rebounds in the second half against UMBC because there was nothing to rebound.
UMBC hit 12 of their final 15 shots. And from the 6:12 mark of the first half, they shot 23 of 34. Mind blowing.
Totally Kafkaesque
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

Shirley wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:30 amRight now, the biggest problem is in UVA's heads, not their system.
This seems like a bigger knock on Bennett than anything anyone else has said.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

mister d wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:38 am
Shirley wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:30 amRight now, the biggest problem is in UVA's heads, not their system.
This seems like a bigger knock on Bennett than anything anyone else has said.
I guess. It's a real thing, but I wouldn't say it's clearly a bigger deal than the idea that his system might fundamentally not work. But since I don't believe the latter, the former is the main thing.

He'll probably never divulge his pregame thoughts, but I seriously doubt he or anyone else saw what was going to happen. I'm sure the team was noticeably tight, but that's expected. Nearly all 1-16 games are tight for the bulk of the first half. The 1-seed comes out nervous, but expecting to win, while the 16-seed throws everything they have at the opportunity because they have nothing to lose. Eventually, the inevitable wins out. But not Friday night.

It's not like UVA never played any other big games this year or in previous years. The game against Duke in Cameron. The game ESPN Game Day game against VT. The ACC Tournament Championship. They weren't perfect in those games, but they never collapsed.
Totally Kafkaesque
User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 10739
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I alluded to it earlier and it bears repeating: When your opponent shoots over 54 percent FG, and over 50 percent from 3pt, you are going to lose. This is exactly what George Mason did in 2006, only they were more talented overall and were able to sustain incredibly hot shooting all the way to the Final Four.

Shit, if UMBC had even an average night shooting yesterday, they're in the Sweet 16. Now, with that said, I don't really understand how UMBC had so many wide open looks on Friday. K-State were clearly more athletic and they shut down shots from behind the arc MUCH better than the Cavaliers did. I didn't go look up UVas 3pt defense on the season, but that should've been a point of emphasis on Friday and especially in the second half, I was stunned by the lack of contesting so many of those shots.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
User avatar
DSafetyGuy
The Dude
Posts: 8728
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:29 pm
Location: Behind the high school

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by DSafetyGuy »

I think the big question is does Bennett have anything as a counterpunch he can use with his players when things go poorly and they are trailing. His defensive strategy clearly is his driving factor for the program, but what can he do when things go wrong?

Virginia, on paper, is not a terrifically talented team. Their recruiting class rankings at 24-7 for the last four seasons are far lower than most teams that are as good as the Cavaliers (2014 - #32, 2015 - #62, 2016 - #7, 2017 - #98).

What can Bennett do when the opponent is playing at the higher end of their potential? Can he speed up on offense to try to squeeze out a couple extra possessions with the ball while having the team still retain the defensive focus? Does he need to alter his recruiting strategy to get more offensive punch while coaching up those players on the defensive end? And if he decides to do that, how does he change the perception of his program to get those better offensive players?
“All I'm sayin' is, he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.”
User avatar
DSafetyGuy
The Dude
Posts: 8728
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:29 pm
Location: Behind the high school

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by DSafetyGuy »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:28 am I alluded to it earlier and it bears repeating: When your opponent shoots over 54 percent FG, and over 50 percent from 3pt, you are going to lose. This is exactly what George Mason did in 2006, only they were more talented overall and were able to sustain incredibly hot shooting all the way to the Final Four.

Shit, if UMBC had even an average night shooting yesterday, they're in the Sweet 16. Now, with that said, I don't really understand how UMBC had so many wide open looks on Friday. K-State were clearly more athletic and they shut down shots from behind the arc MUCH better than the Cavaliers did. I didn't go look up UVas 3pt defense on the season, but that should've been a point of emphasis on Friday and especially in the second half, I was stunned by the lack of contesting so many of those shots.
I can't imagine any team was going to get caught off guard by UMBC after Friday. There is no way to overlook a 16-seed that beats a 1-seed because the coach can simply say, "Hey, they just beat them, so they can definitely beat us."

Florida-Gulf Coast is the only one of eight 15-seeds to win in the first round to have made the Sweet Sixteen, Cleveland State in 1986 is the only one of 21 14-seeds to do it. That first win definitely gets the attention of the second round opponent.
“All I'm sayin' is, he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.”
HaulCitgo
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4444
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by HaulCitgo »

Its not a postseason problem. Not a Bennett problem either. They can and will win. I just think he will have a hard time recruiting to that style. The good part is that the style might not require as much traditional talent, the bad part is that talent wins out in the long run. The ACC affiliation and HS talent in coastal VA and DC areas ought to get you enough talent to avoid that problem but theyve been poor in attracting that talent even before Bennett. Also, I dont think you can blame shooting percentages when you lose by 20. Maybe everybody loses when a team catches fire, but they still lose if those percentages are a lot lower, so not an excuse. They need a Plan B and thats Bennett's fault and the Plan A while it works, isnt the best way to win cause youll never get Allen Iverson, even when hes in your backyard.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

HaulCitgo wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:43 am Its not a postseason problem. Not a Bennett problem either. They can and will win. I just think he will have a hard time recruiting to that style. The good part is that the style might not require as much traditional talent, the bad part is that talent wins out in the long run.
Sounds like a major conference version of John Chaney.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 10739
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Nonlinear FC »

My point is that FG is indicative of 2 things: How well a team is shooting (duh) and how effective the opponents D is (often overlooked or misunderstood.)

UMBC shot the lights out, sure, but UVa didn't close out the 3 very well. Just to beat it into the ground, way too many people look at FG and 3pt percentage and say "wow, that team really shot the lights out" and don't examine or take into account how many of those shots were contested.

If UMBC shot 50 percent from 3 last night against K-State, it would've been mind-blowing, because they were almost all taken with a hand in the face, or rushed knowing someone was right on their elbow. Totally agree with D-safe about not sneaking up on anyone, but let's not forget, that game was tied at the half on Friday. It was pretty clear what they were doing, and I just don't think they adjusted and/or emphasized closing out and switching on D to get that one dude to stop driving the lane so effectively.

And like I said that night, they really stopped playing about 10 minutes into the half. Just collapsed and it was weird.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
User avatar
DSafetyGuy
The Dude
Posts: 8728
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:29 pm
Location: Behind the high school

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by DSafetyGuy »

“All I'm sayin' is, he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.”
User avatar
sancarlos
The Dude
Posts: 18060
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:46 pm
Location: NorCal via Colorado

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by sancarlos »

So, not related to the loss to USF, then.

Sorry, Rerun.
"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian
User avatar
Steve of phpBB
The Dude
Posts: 8434
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Feeling gravity's pull

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Steve of phpBB »

JFC, I didn't realize this was an old thread, and with all the stuff going on I really was worried.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
User avatar
Rex
The Dude
Posts: 7264
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Rex »

Is this about Daryl Dike missing out on this goal fest?
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

I'll be honest, when I saw the MSU-UVA was postponed, I didn't expect it to be because UVA had problems. But maybe it's already gone through the MSU squad.

The NCAA just needs to shut down all intercollegiate sports for a couple of months. Nobody should be traveling to intermingle with strangers right now. This shit is FAR from under control.
Totally Kafkaesque
User avatar
Brontoburglar
The Dude
Posts: 5851
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Brontoburglar »

Shirley wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:13 pm I'll be honest, when I saw the MSU-UVA was postponed, I didn't expect it to be because UVA had problems. But maybe it's already gone through the MSU squad.

The NCAA just needs to shut down all intercollegiate sports for a couple of months. Nobody should be traveling to intermingle with strangers right now. This shit is FAR from under control.
Pausing basketball for a month and giving kids a chance to go home for Christmas and then come back, quarantine, and play a conference season really seems like a good idea.

As does pushing everything back to February and then playing the tournament in May.
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

But don't you have to weigh the health of the unpaid players against the fact that you have most nights to yourself right now whereas you'll be competing with the NBA every night and NFL playoffs on weekends in January? Its a really tough call!
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Brontoburglar
The Dude
Posts: 5851
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am

Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Brontoburglar »

that same competition against the NBA and NFL that happens in a normal year?

(I know what you're trying to say obviously, but that was a 3/10 at best)
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
Post Reply