shirley (emotional support thread)

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Brontoburglar »

dave needs his own thread
Last edited by Brontoburglar on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: shirley

Post by A_B »

This may be the correct protocol?
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Re: shirley

Post by brian »

As long as I don’t have to tell him I feel sorry because I don’t. (I mean for him I do. I’m not a monster.)
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Re: shirley

Post by brian »

I actually lost real money on this game but I did it for a story. I bet $25 on UVA at +1100 in game with 4 mins left so I had a good story either way. Then we crashed keg’s March Madness Party.
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Re: shirley

Post by Johnny Carwash »

Not following the tournament + seeing this thread title wasn't a fun combination for me.
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Re: shirley

Post by mister d »

I lost $20 on betting them to win with like 12:00 to go but it was more or less paying to watch history.
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Re: shirley

Post by A_B »

mister d wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:18 am I lost $20 on betting them to win with like 12:00 to go but it was more or less paying to watch history.
I watched history for free!
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Re: shirley

Post by mister d »

I bet there's someone here who would pay $20 to get a do-over!
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Re: shirley

Post by DSafetyGuy »

A_B wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:52 pm This may be the correct protocol?
Well, he hasn't kept tweeting and retweeting how amazing Virginia's basketball team is, so it's possible it is.

I guess Paschal Chukwu will keep cleaning his antenna with his foreleg, then making free throws in the second round.
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Re: shirley

Post by Brontoburglar »

DSafetyGuy wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:12 am
A_B wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:52 pm This may be the correct protocol?
Well, he hasn't kept tweeting and retweeting how amazing Virginia's basketball team is, so it's possible it is.

I guess Paschal Chukwu will keep cleaning his antenna with his foreleg, then making free throws in the second round.
I can also totally understand how you can be dead inside after something like this happens. it's how I felt when Mizzou got Norfolk'd
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Re: shirley

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Johnny Carwash wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:02 am Not following the tournament + seeing this thread title wasn't a fun combination for me.
Well, certainly a part of him died last night.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Steve of phpBB »

I feel for Dave. And I have two lawyers in my office who went to U Va.

Back when the tournament was 48 teams, I went through that three times in a row. From 1980-1982, DePaul entered as the #1 seed and lost their first game each time.

They were 26-1, 27-1, and 26-1. National ranking #1, #1, and #2. Combined 0-3 in the tournament.
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Re: shirley

Post by The Sybian »

Johnny Carwash wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:02 am Not following the tournament + seeing this thread title wasn't a fun combination for me.
Yeah, I started with thinking Shirley Hemphill died a long time ago, then confirmed with a Google search. The thread didn't feel serious enough for an OG Swamper's death, but it took 10 minutes of reading other threads to subdue the thought that Dave might have died.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

I've only just now conjured up the courage to open The Swamp. The sickness I feel has subsided quite a bit from last night, but it hasn't gone away. Far from it. This one leaves a scar. An ugly pink one across the face that everyone will notice and ask about for the rest of our life.

Man.


(I thought that Chukwu tweet was pretty funny. Dude looks like a bug!)
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

BTW, those of you who think you've been through a loss like this, you haven't. Trust me, I've been a fan of Virginia sports all my life and their sports history is littered with gut-punch losses (NC State in '83 (twice!), GT in football in 1990, Syracuse in '16, four (FOUR!) lacrosse national championships lost in overtime), but there's never been anything like this. Nothing. And all those other pains are the kind that stick with you, but nobody else ever really remembers, so it stays as your own painful memory. This one EVERYONE will remember for a long time. It will be brought back up with every NCAA tournament - by far my favorite sporting event of the year

Next year, when this team is winning games again and climbing the national rankings, there will be articles written all around the country, "yes, but..." And there's nothing to be done until tournament time again where we'll all pray for the curse to end. The whole season, really every season, will have the feeling of a parade before a funeral, until and unless Tony can get UVA a title. That's the only thing that can somewhat wipe this stain.

And national titles are rare for even the best of coaches.

Ugh.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Giff »

My first sports memory is NC State/UH in ‘83. So yeah, I get it.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by tennbengal »

They run , at some point, Montana to Taylor every year during Super bowl week. At some point it stops being a fresh pain, and becomes instead a deep throbbing hurt that is always a little there.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

Shirley wrote: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:38 pm BTW, those of you who think you've been through a loss like this, you haven't.
Feels like you’re forgetting City's loss to Liverpool a few months back.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

But honestly, I buy that. It has every bad aspect possible, historical, a horrific upset, everyone happy it happened and absolutely no shot at redemption. You can’t like beat a 16 and call it even. Even winning the tourney as a program like UVA is less amazing than the loss was bad. I was at a bar for lunch on Friday and a regular who apparently played there with Sampson was talking to another guy about how few teams were even capable of beating them in this tourney unless something fluked because of their superior system and D. No #1 thinks they will lose to a #16, but most seem to acknowledge the tiny chance they could.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by brian »

Was it worse than the Super Bowl last year for a Falcons fan though? I'm not so sure.

(I feel like maybe it should be taken to a different thread if this is an emotional support thread though. But now that got me thinking that there's gotta be some UVA/Falcons fan out there who is wondering if they pissed off some trickster demon.)
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

Yup, because the Patriots were the better team. There's shame in how they lost (UVA has that), but not in who they lost to.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by brian »

mister d wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:17 am Yup, because the Patriots were the better team. There's shame in how they lost (UVA has that), but not in who they lost to.
Yeah, but a title game vs. an opening round game too though. Just saying there's different levels and facets...
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Brontoburglar »

mister d wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:17 am Yup, because the Patriots were the better team. There's shame in how they lost (UVA has that), but not in who they lost to.
It's like if Michigan-App State happened in a college football tournament and not in a Week 1 pay game
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

I get that most fans at some point have experienced that loss of a championship that was RIGHT THERE. NC State over Houston is a great example of that. But nobody mocks those Houston teams or the Houston program. Hell, there's an ad running on TV right now that mentions Phi Slamma Jamma 35 years later.

I felt that impact when that last Sampson team lost to that same NC State team.

This is different. Not only was this the loss of an opportunity at great success, but it's a massive public humiliation. And a huge, insoluble rock to build specious arguments on about why Tony Bennett can't win in March or that this program is a fraud. It's a stupid, stupid argument, but now those who make it have a big, shiny, famous example to use to their benefit.

When I get the energy, I'll use this thread to go through all the reasons why the argument that Virginia can't win in the NCAA Tournament is wrong. It's wrong for Virginia in many of the same ways it was once wrong about Dean Smith, Roy WIlliams, Coach K, Mark Few, Jim Boeheim, Jay Wright, etc.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Brontoburglar wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:20 am
mister d wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:17 am Yup, because the Patriots were the better team. There's shame in how they lost (UVA has that), but not in who they lost to.
It's like if Michigan-App State happened in a college football tournament and not in a Week 1 pay game
There you go. I was gonna bring up App State, because opposing fans just blurt it out when you walk by them (fucking MD fans, of all people... morons).

As far as the tourney, we have The Timeout that assholes like to blurt out, too.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by A_B »

Shirley wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:22 am I get that most fans at some point have experienced that loss of a championship that was RIGHT THERE. NC State over Houston is a great example of that. But nobody mocks those Houston teams or the Houston program. Hell, there's an ad running on TV right now that mentions Phi Slamma Jamma 35 years later.

I felt that impact when that last Sampson team lost to that same NC State team.

This is different. Not only was this the loss of an opportunity at great success, but it's a massive public humiliation. And a huge, insoluble rock to build specious arguments on about why Tony Bennett can't win in March or that this program is a fraud. It's a stupid, stupid argument, but now those who make it have a big, shiny, famous example to use to their benefit.

When I get the energy, I'll use this thread to go through all the reasons why the argument that Virginia can't win in the NCAA Tournament is wrong. It's wrong for Virginia in many of the same ways it was once wrong about Dean Smith, Roy WIlliams, Coach K, Mark Few, Jim Boeheim, Jay Wright, etc.
Maybe it is like A’s/moneyball thing and it really doesn’t work in the postseason though? That has to be a possibility no matter what your arguments end up being. And they still had to win five more games.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:01 pmMaybe it is like A’s/moneyball thing and it really doesn’t work in the postseason though? That has to be a possibility no matter what your arguments end up being. And they still had to win five more games.
Explain the mechanism for WHY it doesn't work in the postseason. It isn't magic. There has to be a reason. And then explain why other slow tempo, defense-oriented teams - like Syracuse this year - win. Other years, you could point to Michigan State. Butler made the finals two years in a row. And for that matter, the UConn team that beat them.

Does the ACC Tournament count as postseason? Because Virginia has done pretty well in that.

Everyone wants the answer to be simple and obvious, but the fact of the matter is that it's mostly just chance. Michigan State lost to a thoroughly mediocre Syracuse team today. UNC is getting blown out by Texas A&M. Neither of those outcomes are explainable by comparing systems or coaches. It's just sports. There's variability, particularly in small sample sizes.

Granted this outcome was WAY out of the norm, but it CAN'T be explained by dissecting the system or the coaching. If it were that easy, I'm pretty sure one of the four Hall of Fame coaches in the ACC would have figured it out by now.

In this case, what happened is that Virginia just came out flat and UMBC gave it everything. When their shots kept falling, they were able to maintain that high energy way past what would normally be reasonable, particularly for a team that was really not that good most of the year. Might UVA's tightness been a result of wearing a target all year and hearing folks say they can't win in the tournament? Certainly. Either way, they'll have to deal with 10x that much historical pressure next year. But odds are, it won't happen again.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by mister d »

If all coaches disappeared tomorrow, where does UVA’s roster rank in D1 on just talent?
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Rex »

I don't think there's anything different between what Bennett is doing and what Brad Stevens did at Butler, except that Virginia probably has a little higher baseline of talent. And Butler came close enough to winning it all that you have to concede it was possible for them to do it.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by A_B »

I won’t hear any arguments that Bennett is as good a coach as stevens, sorry.

And that is no knock on Bennett to be honest.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by EnochRoot »

A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:44 pm I won’t hear any arguments that Bennett is as good a coach as stevens, sorry.

And that is no knock on Bennett to be honest.
Sure it is. Bennett is suspect.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by A_B »

EnochRoot wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:55 pm
A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:44 pm I won’t hear any arguments that Bennett is as good a coach as stevens, sorry.

And that is no knock on Bennett to be honest.
Sure it is. Bennett is suspect.
No, I just think Stevens is that good. Bennett is a good coach. He gets guys to play his scheme no matter what. THat takes coaching ability. When it comes to game management is where he loses out to Stevens and others I think.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by EnochRoot »

A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:56 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:55 pm
A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:44 pm I won’t hear any arguments that Bennett is as good a coach as stevens, sorry.

And that is no knock on Bennett to be honest.
Sure it is. Bennett is suspect.
No, I just think Stevens is that good. Bennett is a good coach. He gets guys to play his scheme no matter what. THat takes coaching ability. When it comes to game management is where he loses out to Stevens and others I think.
No argument there, because even though UMBC is playing a tight game, you get the feeling they're playing over their head, because KSU is playing up-tempo. And what happens when KSU blows this team out of the gym?

I mean, at the end of the day is Tony trying to win some eastern philosophical debate?
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Rex »

A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:56 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:55 pm
A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:44 pm I won’t hear any arguments that Bennett is as good a coach as stevens, sorry.

And that is no knock on Bennett to be honest.
Sure it is. Bennett is suspect.
No, I just think Stevens is that good. Bennett is a good coach. He gets guys to play his scheme no matter what. THat takes coaching ability. When it comes to game management is where he loses out to Stevens and others I think.
I think Bennett does a lot more than get guys to play his scheme--that's Herb Sendek. His teams constantly wear out their opponents mentally--I don't put him in K's class as a motivator and game psychology guy but I definitely put him at the next level with Stevens and I guess Jay Wright and not much else. Clemson is about to go to the Sweet 16 and they flat out quit playing basketball in the second half against Virginia twice this year. I agree that Stevens is a much better coach in some respects but I think the things that separate him are more important in the NBA.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by A_B »

Hmm. Weird to say about a guy that took a mid major to two straight title games and lost to a hall of fame coach each time, and got out coached in neither game.

(And he has also been better than expected in nba and I just hope he takes all the money uK offers when Calipari retires/leaves)
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Joe K »

A_B wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:11 pm Hmm. Weird to say about a guy that took a mid major to two straight title games and lost to a hall of fame coach each time, and got out coached in neither game.

(And he has also been better than expected in nba and I just hope he takes all the money uK offers when Calipari retires/leaves)
I wouldn’t put anyone in the college game, including Coach K, in Stevens’ class. Stevens is already arguably the best coach in the NBA and those Butler teams he took to the Final had no business getting there based on their talent level. Most college coaches who win a lot are great recruiters, but have nowhere near Stevens’ in-game coaching skill. Look how many successful NCAA coaches have been utter flops in the NBA.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by A_B »

I’ll put pop ahead but your points are valid.

And your last point is why I’d love to see him at UK.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

I won't quibble with Tony being behind Brad Stephens. I mean, taking Butler to consecutive title games is one of the greatest college coaching runs ever.

But consider Bennett's last five seasons. In a league that in just the previous three seasons has produced two national champions and a runner-up (and Duke is a fair bet to make it another this year), Bennett has gone 73-17. 81% in the ACC. Oh, and he's won the conference tournament twice and lost in the finals once.

Over the same five seasons, Duke and UNC have both gone 63-27. Ten games worse.

In those five years, he's had the services of two top-50 players (Guy and Jerome, sophomores on this team) and 7 total top-100 players (two of whom were ranked in the 90s).

What Bennett's done in the ACC has been nearly unprecedented. To do all that, but suggest that somehow he doesn't know how to win the slightly different tournament games just doesn't make any sense.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by Shirley »

BTW, thanks for this place to vent! I haven't opened the tournament thread since Friday.

I just saw on reddit that Tom Izzo is now 3-23 all time against Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski, and Jim Boeheim.

I looked it up and Bennett is 16-17 against the same group. Of course, that includes the first couple years at UVA when he was building them from nothing. Only K has a winning record against Bennett.

Oh, and Bennett is also 5-1 against Rick Pitino. Adding it all up, he's 21-18 against the four HOF coaches in the ACC.
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Re: shirley (emotional support thread)

Post by brian »

Izzo is much more OK with raping women too it seems.
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