2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by RSmith »

A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:19 am How excited would you be if I told you Kawhi really really really doesn't want to be there?
I would be terrified, given what happened last year. However:

- Though I have some substantial grievance with Masai Ujiri over the Ibaka and Powell contracts, he generally seems very bright and competent. I presume he would not make this trade if he wasn't confident Kawhi would perform to his full potential.
- I know and accept that Toronto is far from Kawhi's first choice. However, I think that if he pulled the same or a similar stunt as he did last year, he would risk seriously harming his future prospects, and I think he's clever enough to recognize that.

ETA: The details aren't clear yet, but if Masai somehow convinced SA to take the albatross that is Serge Ibaka, he should be awarded the 2019 executive of the year right now.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by duff »

He doesn't have to do shit this year. It is his last year on his current contract. He is going to LA next season. Either Clips or Lakers. Neither of those teams are going to care if he doesn't give it his all this year, or claims to be hurt and miss a majority of games. He will get paid next year by either of those teams and he will be happy to be back in SoCal.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by A_B »

duff wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:28 am He doesn't have to do shit this year. It is his last year on his current contract. He is going to LA next season. Either Clips or Lakers. Neither of those teams are going to care if he doesn't give it his all this year, or claims to be hurt and miss a majority of games. He will get paid next year by either of those teams and he will be happy to be back in SoCal.
yup.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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duff wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:28 am He doesn't have to do shit this year. It is his last year on his current contract. He is going to LA next season. Either Clips or Lakers. Neither of those teams are going to care if he doesn't give it his all this year, or claims to be hurt and miss a majority of games. He will get paid next year by either of those teams and he will be happy to be back in SoCal.
And you don't think that the management of those teams would have any pause if he essentially quit on his team two years in a row? I mean, sure, he *wants* to be in LA and so that would presumably be a non-issue, but players have been known to sour on a team over the duration of a contract, no matter how much they may have initially wanted to be there, so I'd think that even the Lakers or Clippers would have to consider that aspect of his character. I have to think he'd be taking an awful risk.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:32 am
duff wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:28 am He doesn't have to do shit this year. It is his last year on his current contract. He is going to LA next season. Either Clips or Lakers. Neither of those teams are going to care if he doesn't give it his all this year, or claims to be hurt and miss a majority of games. He will get paid next year by either of those teams and he will be happy to be back in SoCal.
yup.
Everyone said the same things about Paul George last offseason. It’s a gamble but a very smart one for Toronto. Worst case scenario they just cleared a ton of cap room for next year’s FA class by trading DDR. Best case scenario, they win the East this year and can then offer Kawhi much more money than any other team next offseason.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:36 am Worst case scenario they just cleared a ton of cap room for next year’s FA class by trading DDR.
This is a huge point. And while I don't take SA for fools at all, I still hold out hope that they may have agreed to take back one of our other terrible contracts as well... :)
Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:36 am Best case scenario, they win the East this year and can then offer Kawhi much more money than any other team next offseason.
The one sports talk guy in these parts whom I really like, Bob McCown, has been hammering on the notion that perhaps, if Kawhi were to come play in Toronto, he might be persuaded to stay. I think it's *somewhat* of a long shot, but certainly not impossible. Toronto is a great city, and the third-largest market in North America...
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:36 am
A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:32 am
duff wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:28 am He doesn't have to do shit this year. It is his last year on his current contract. He is going to LA next season. Either Clips or Lakers. Neither of those teams are going to care if he doesn't give it his all this year, or claims to be hurt and miss a majority of games. He will get paid next year by either of those teams and he will be happy to be back in SoCal.
yup.
Everyone said the same things about Paul George last offseason. It’s a gamble but a very smart one for Toronto. Worst case scenario they just cleared a ton of cap room for next year’s FA class by trading DDR. Best case scenario, they win the East this year and can then offer Kawhi much more money than any other team next offseason.
Yup. So much can change in one year and that's a lot of extra money to leave on the table.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by Joe K »

I hate everything the Lakers did this offseason other than signing LeBron (which they were probably only able to do because he wants to make movies). They just punted a year of LBJ’s prime (I’m not sure they can beat Utah or OKC, let alone GSW) when they could have easily closed the deal on a Kawhi trade and paired together the ideal 1-2 punch to take on the Warriors. I think they are massively overvaluing their young players by holding back on making that trade happen. I’d bet a lot of money that none of Ingram, Kuzma or Hart will ever be anywhere near Kawhi’s level.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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I'm not convinced they still don't get him at some point this year.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by Joe K »

To expand on my prior post, “win-now” moves tend to get criticized but you never know how long your title window will be open. The Cavs got a lot of shit for overpaying FAs, but between the Kyrie injury in the 2015 Finals and the Durant move, they really only had a one year window. And they don’t win that 2016 title without Tristan Thompson or JR Smith, who were their two biggest overpays. I just don’t understand signing 34 year old LeBron and not doing what you can to compete right now.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by A_B »

A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:01 am I'm not convinced they still don't get him at some point this year.
This is an awfully-constructed sentence.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:06 am To expand on my prior post, “win-now” moves tend to get criticized but you never know how long your title window will be open. The Cavs got a lot of shit for overpaying FAs, but between the Kyrie injury in the 2015 Finals and the Durant move, they really only had a one year window. And they don’t win that 2016 title without Tristan Thompson or JR Smith, who were their two biggest overpays. I just don’t understand signing 34 year old LeBron and not doing what you can to compete right now.
Absolutely. Apart from LeBron, obviously, I'm mystified by their moves this offseason. It's not just that I wouldn't have chosen those particular players; I literally don't understand what they thought some of those moves would accomplish.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:32 am
duff wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:28 am He doesn't have to do shit this year. It is his last year on his current contract. He is going to LA next season. Either Clips or Lakers. Neither of those teams are going to care if he doesn't give it his all this year, or claims to be hurt and miss a majority of games. He will get paid next year by either of those teams and he will be happy to be back in SoCal.
yup.
Toronto is a fantastic city. I am obviously biased, but it has so, so much to offer.

But when you earn $17 million a year, and will make double that the following years, any city can be a great place to live. Toronto fans are naive if they believe Kawhi Leonard will spend a weekend hanging out on the waterfront and visiting some of our great, safe, ethnically diverse neighbourhoods and suddenly decide that he wants to be a Raptor for 4-5 years.

This could well be a move to free future cap space, but one thing you can bet on is that the harmony that saw the Raps win so many games last year is now going to be a thing of the past. Leonard is a better player than DeRozan, but DeRozan was the face of this franchise for many years. He has now been replaced by a guy who didn't want to play for Popovich.

Bad times ahead for the Raptors.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:06 am To expand on my prior post, “win-now” moves tend to get criticized but you never know how long your title window will be open. The Cavs got a lot of shit for overpaying FAs, but between the Kyrie injury in the 2015 Finals and the Durant move, they really only had a one year window. And they don’t win that 2016 title without Tristan Thompson or JR Smith, who were their two biggest overpays. I just don’t understand signing 34 year old LeBron and not doing what you can to compete right now.
The other team still has Durant. I wouldn't understand blowing up a 30% shot at a title in, say, 2021 for a 5% at one this year.
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Ryan wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:26 am
Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:06 am To expand on my prior post, “win-now” moves tend to get criticized but you never know how long your title window will be open. The Cavs got a lot of shit for overpaying FAs, but between the Kyrie injury in the 2015 Finals and the Durant move, they really only had a one year window. And they don’t win that 2016 title without Tristan Thompson or JR Smith, who were their two biggest overpays. I just don’t understand signing 34 year old LeBron and not doing what you can to compete right now.
The other team still has Durant. I wouldn't understand blowing up a 30% shot at a title in, say, 2021 for a 5% at one this year.
Maybe LeBron will still be an amazing player at age 36. But he’s got a ton of miles on his legs and there have been a lot of other really great players for whom the drop off came fast. IMO, they should’ve traded for Kawhi and used some of the 1-year deal money they gave Rondo and Lance on Cousins. They’d still be underdogs for sure but that’s a team that could have capitalized if the Warriors end up being vulnerable due to injuries or complacency. As it stands, they’re making a big bet that Kuzma and Hart will develop into meaningful contributors on a title team as opposed to just being guys who put up stats playing low-pressure games for a bad team.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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If you're that worried about LeBron at 36, you don't make this move to begin with.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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The radio honks this morning did two things...

1) Made me feel a bit better about the trade.

2) Reminded me why I rarely listen to sports radio. Paraphrasing - "Leonard plays and tries, than the Raps are a candidate to run away with the east."
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Raptors probably weren't going reach the Finals, much less win the title, with Derozan this coming season. I get that they've never made the Finals and there are a lot of good feelings about what the Raptors have accomplished with him and Lowry, but moving on to the next phase (even if Leonard walks after this year) is the right move.

Lowry is under contract for two more seasons, as are Ibaka and Valanciunas. Even after trading away Poeltl, they have a handful of promising young talent in VanVleet (who has two years left and will step into the Lowry spot when he leaves, either via future trade or as a free agent), Delon Wright, Anunoby, and Siakam. Wright is the oldest of those guys at 26. If they let all those big contract guys walk, they could very well be a free agent destination in two years just because they have money.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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That's pretty much what one of the Raptor announcers was saying. Cheered me up.

DeRozan seems like a great guy - tons of charity work in the city, never any hint of scandal, seemed to genuinely like Toronto. And Leonard has "clubhouse cancer" written all over him. But...

The sweep by the Cavs this year was the nail in the coffin for this version of the team. And Masai has earned our trust.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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I agree about DeRozan being the kind of model citizen and face of the franchise that you'd love to see on the team when it finally makes the Finals. On off-the-court stuff, this trade would be madness. But I think the on-court outweighs it.

The one thing that leaves me scratching my head: I'm not surprised, or too upset, that one of the good young guys from the second unit, like Poeltl, had to be included. However, to me at least, this makes the failure to make an offer to Lucas Nogueira, which seemed a bit shortsighted at the time, now look completely inexplicable. Who is the backup center? Then again, I suppose the way the game is going, that might not be a terribly major consideration.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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RSmith wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:25 pm

The one thing that leaves me scratching my head: I'm not surprised, or too upset, that one of the good young guys from the second unit, like Poeltl, had to be included. However, to me at least, this makes the failure to make an offer to Lucas Nogueira, which seemed a bit shortsighted at the time, now look completely inexplicable. Who is the backup center? Then again, I suppose the way the game is going, that might not be a terribly major consideration.
Man, Lucas Nogueira has more face tattoos than he has had good games. Guy's a complete and utter stiff.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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While I don't necessarily think that the Dwane Casey firing was warranted overall, his use/misuse/non-use of both JV and Nogueira was really atrocious. I think Nogueira had a good deal more than he was given the opportunity to show.

That said, I may just like him because, as a Brazilian guy named Nogueira, he reminds me of Minotauro, which reminds me of PRIDE, which reminds me that a watchable, competently-run MMA organization was a thing that once existed... :)
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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I am happy to wager that he will never average 8 points or 8 boards a game in any season of his NBA career.

Hell, I'll go as low as 6 and 6.

Still, he is only the 2nd worst Brazilian Centre taken in the first round who ended up wasting the Raptors time. That crown belongs to the legendary Rafa Araujo.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Pruitt wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:47 pm Still, he is only the 2nd worst Brazilian Centre taken in the first round who ended up wasting the Raptors time. That crown belongs to the legendary Rafa Araujo.
Good God, I remember him. Not the Raps' finest hour, that pick.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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The Sportsnet newsbreak chap just described DeRozan as "maybe the greatest Raptor ever." I liked him very much, and am sorry to see him go, but no matter how messily it ended, I still very much think Vince Carter is clearly the greatest player in team history...
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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I can’t get over how Toronto is seen by most American athletes as some kind of Siberia despite it being better than almost any American city you could be traded to. Leonard’s lucky he wasn’t traded to Orlando or Oklahoma City.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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brian wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:43 pm I can’t get over how Toronto is seen by most American athletes as some kind of Siberia despite it being better than almost any American city you could be traded to. Leonard’s lucky he wasn’t traded to Orlando or Oklahoma City.
Not to mention bigger than all but NY and LA, having surpassed Chicago several years ago. It really is strange.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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From what I've read, it's driven by Kawhi's uncle who is basically Lavar Ball Lite and is obsessed with getting Kawhi to L.A. or New York because those are the only two proper places for a big star.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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RSmith wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:59 pm The Sportsnet newsbreak chap just described DeRozan as "maybe the greatest Raptor ever." I liked him very much, and am sorry to see him go, but no matter how messily it ended, I still very much think Vince Carter is clearly the greatest player in team history...
Carter is the 3rd. Bosh, DeRozan and then that overrated clubhouse cancer Vince Carter.

I see young fans wearing Vince Carter shirts I want to slap them across the face.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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brian wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:43 pm I can’t get over how Toronto is seen by most American athletes as some kind of Siberia despite it being better than almost any American city you could be traded to. Leonard’s lucky he wasn’t traded to Orlando or Oklahoma City.
Like would they really rather live in Memphis? Milwaukee? Sacramento?

I mean come on.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:19 am How excited would you be if I told you Kawhi really really really doesn't want to be there?
Serious question: Does the trade get invalidated if he refuses to report to Toronto?
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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Pruitt wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:54 pm
RSmith wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:59 pm The Sportsnet newsbreak chap just described DeRozan as "maybe the greatest Raptor ever." I liked him very much, and am sorry to see him go, but no matter how messily it ended, I still very much think Vince Carter is clearly the greatest player in team history...
Carter is the 3rd. Bosh, DeRozan and then that overrated clubhouse cancer Vince Carter.

I see young fans wearing Vince Carter shirts I want to slap them across the face.
Funny, I have a bad habit of continually almost forgetting Bosh.

Vince, in his last couple of years, was a bad clubhouse guy, yes (luckily, all-time good guy and my personal favorite Raptor, Alvin Williams, was still around back then). And as a player with a lot of flash to his game, yes, he was a bit overrated. If you want to say that the character considerations swing it to DeMar over Vince, I guess I'll buy that, but strictly on-court, Vince was a better player at both ends of the floor. Not miles better, but better.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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sancarlos wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:57 pm
A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:19 am How excited would you be if I told you Kawhi really really really doesn't want to be there?
Serious question: Does the trade get invalidated if he refuses to report to Toronto?
God, I hope we don't find out...
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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sancarlos wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:57 pm
A_B wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:19 am How excited would you be if I told you Kawhi really really really doesn't want to be there?
Serious question: Does the trade get invalidated if he refuses to report to Toronto?
I found the answer (no help from you fucks.) More complicated than I thought. If he flat out refuses to report, Toronto could withhold his entire salary, and there is even a clause in the CBA where Toronto could prevent him from leaving after the season via free agency. If he reports but claims he is injured and can't play for that reason, Toronto could petition the league to have a "neutral physician" examine Leonard and rule on whether the injury claim is or is not bullshit.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

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RSmith wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:14 pm
Pruitt wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:54 pm
RSmith wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:59 pm The Sportsnet newsbreak chap just described DeRozan as "maybe the greatest Raptor ever." I liked him very much, and am sorry to see him go, but no matter how messily it ended, I still very much think Vince Carter is clearly the greatest player in team history...
Carter is the 3rd. Bosh, DeRozan and then that overrated clubhouse cancer Vince Carter.

I see young fans wearing Vince Carter shirts I want to slap them across the face.
Funny, I have a bad habit of continually almost forgetting Bosh.

Vince, in his last couple of years, was a bad clubhouse guy, yes (luckily, all-time good guy and my personal favorite Raptor, Alvin Williams, was still around back then). And as a player with a lot of flash to his game, yes, he was a bit overrated. If you want to say that the character considerations swing it to DeMar over Vince, I guess I'll buy that, but strictly on-court, Vince was a better player at both ends of the floor. Not miles better, but better.
"Bad clubhouse guy" is an understatement.

There has NEVER been a star (and one on a max deal as well) who quit on his team like Carter. So fucking shameless he even said he was going to stop driving to the basket because he didn't want to risk injuring himself for his next team. Look at his stats for 2004-05. Piece of whining shit spends the off season whining that he wants a trade. Starts the year winging 3s and basically loafing around. Scores 15 pts per game as the centrepiece of the team (down from 25 the season before) Shoots 41%, rebounds down and he basically mopes all over the court. Even shoots 10% on free throws than before or after the trade which supports the theory that he was trying to lose as many games as possible.

Traded a third of the way through the season and suddenly scores 12 more points a game. All stats basically career highs.

Fuck him. Seriously. Guy leaves the team for a personal errand (getting a diploma) the day before a 7th game of a playoff series. Fuck him.

Do me a favour - whenever you are in a discussion about asshole athletes, remember the piece of shit named Vince Carter.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by RSmith »

Wow, I thought most Raps fans had forgiven Vince. I guess not...

That said, I had honestly forgotten how bad it was at the time, and this jogged my memory. It really was painfully obvious that he quit on the team that last year.

I still contend that Vince was a better on-court talent by a bit, but it does strike me as a bit unseemly to continue arguing for him over a stand-up guy like DeMar, so I won't. :)
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by Joe K »

brian wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:43 pm I can’t get over how Toronto is seen by most American athletes as some kind of Siberia despite it being better than almost any American city you could be traded to. Leonard’s lucky he wasn’t traded to Orlando or Oklahoma City.
DeRozan really embraced Toronto as a city, which is why it’s a bit of a bummer that he got traded, although I do think it was the right basketball decision for the Raptors.
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by RSmith »

Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:48 pm
brian wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:43 pm I can’t get over how Toronto is seen by most American athletes as some kind of Siberia despite it being better than almost any American city you could be traded to. Leonard’s lucky he wasn’t traded to Orlando or Oklahoma City.
DeRozan really embraced Toronto as a city, which is why it’s a bit of a bummer that he got traded, although I do think it was the right basketball decision for the Raptors.
He really did. Honestly, reading this, I'm starting to completely change my feeling on this trade, in spite of the fact that I really think it does make basketball sense. The guy is not quite a megastar, but he is a great player, who could have gone almost anywhere, and he signed here because he legitimately wanted to be here. I'm sure it's just business from the Raps' perspective, but I don't blame him for feeling like he got stabbed in the back... :-(
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Re: 2018 NBA Offseason Thread

Post by Pruitt »

Fuck Vince Carter.
"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
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