Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Just...wow.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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This is so fucking embarrassing for "leadership" to say:

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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She's just trolling Trump and it's working. Tantrums like yesterday make him look weak and impotent to his base.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Its not fucking trolling to say "I wish someone else would handle this" while sitting back and wishing someone else would handle this.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:59 am Its not fucking trolling to say "I wish someone else would handle this" while sitting back and wishing someone else would handle this.
Dude, that's NOT what she's saying. How are you not getting this? Pelosi's concern trolling enrages Trump. He's shown it time and time again. I promise you that Trump is going to be impeached. This is all kabuki theater. Politics is the art of what is said and what is unsaid.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Maybe I've trained myself to get active aggressive when someone is passive aggressive or maybe I'm bad at picking up subtlety, but I'm not reading the in between of what's being said. I guess I'd have to hear how she said it, otherwise I'm stuck.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Johnnie wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 11:36 am Maybe I've trained myself to get active aggressive when someone is passive aggressive or maybe I'm bad at picking up subtlety, but I'm not reading the in between of what's being said. I guess I'd have to hear how she said it, otherwise I'm stuck.
I take it that she is insinuating he's unfit/unwell and his family should be worried about him. It could also be that she knows he has some kind of cocaine habit and this is a subtle poke.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Johnnie wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 1:22 pm
Doesn't do cover ups? Has he seen his hair in a mirror lately?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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It could be any of those insinuations or something even better, who cares? We’ve already done a full “Pelosi: Master Troll” cycle in January, where did that go? It’s perpetual inaction cased as covert action.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Hey Kellyanne, why do you treat maids, pilots and makeup artists like crap?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 11:49 am It could be any of those insinuations or something even better, who cares? We’ve already done a full “Pelosi: Master Troll” cycle in January, where did that go? It’s perpetual inaction cased as covert action.
Pelosi began her political career during the Reagan years and, like many Dems of that era, is absolutely terrified of actually exercising power. She’s very good at marshaling votes in the House but terrible at providing meaningful leadership. If impeachment occurs it will be in spite of Pelosi, and not because of her. Already there have been lots of reports that she’s facing a ton of pushback from within the caucus on this.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 12:15 pm
mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 11:49 am It could be any of those insinuations or something even better, who cares? We’ve already done a full “Pelosi: Master Troll” cycle in January, where did that go? It’s perpetual inaction cased as covert action.
Pelosi began her political career during the Reagan years and, like many Dems of that era, is absolutely terrified of actually exercising power. She’s very good at marshaling votes in the House but terrible at providing meaningful leadership. If impeachment occurs it will be in spite of Pelosi, and not because of her. Already there have been lots of reports that she’s facing a ton of pushback from within the caucus on this.
Or maybe this is all a show to make sure that the House is able to do as much investigation and oversight as possible before the inevitable impeachment trial makes most of that impossible.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I'm not Ride or Die for Pelosi.

But maybe you guys haven't seen the totality of her comments this week? Because it's a lot more than just "we need to pray for him." She is straight up saying he is involved in a cover up, that he is not competent for the job, and that she's not going to take shit for him throwing a temper tantrum yesterday.

It's not some hidden secret that the Caucus is debating how to go after Trump, but so far they have pretty much lined up behind the idea that they don't want to rush into anything. More and more Dems this week are pretty much saying "I'm not for impeaching him, I am for starting the inquiry". And Pelosi is now on record saying she thinks Trump is trying to force the Dems to do this.

The political optics are obvious. Dems will have the votes in the House, and not the Senate. So Trump wants them to stop exposing him for the obvious obstruction and rampant corruption and just get to the end of the impeachment process sooner than later. He's running around saying no collusion, no obstruction when he knows full well that the later part of that statement is bullshit. But just getting the Senate to exonerate him in CY19 is a victory. Pelosi isn't going to give him that.

Some of you guys need to step back from this a little. Rushing into an impeachment that will NEVER GET HIM OUT isn't a very smart move.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I guess we should just try to impeach him during his 2nd term. Don't want to rush anything. 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I swear there's a vocal contingent and certainly not just in here that somehow thinks Leeroy Jenkins-ing into this is somehow a smart maneuver. Never him impeaching him is probably bad, but impeaching him without taking the time to show the country that they exhausted every measure of oversight is worse.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I swear there's a vocal counter-contingent that would argue August 2019 is not yet the right time for impeachment or would argue August 2019 is the perfect time to impeach based on whether the Dems impeach in August 2019.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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So in your expert political opinion, what happens after impeachment? If the House impeaches him next week and the Senate then acquits him which is obviously how it's gonna play out, how does that make Trump weaker and reduce his chances of winning re-election? There's no wrong answers here. I'm legitimately curious.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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brian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:41 pm So in your expert political opinion, what happens after impeachment? If the House impeaches him next week and the Senate then acquits him which is obviously how it's gonna play out, how does that make Trump weaker and reduce his chances of winning re-election? There's no wrong answers here. I'm legitimately curious.
IMO, an impeachment proceeding, regardless of outcome, would get a hell of a lot more attention from undecided voters than the House’s current attempts at oversight. Everyone who posts in this thread is probably in at least the 95th percentile of political engagement so we’re all generally aware of what’s going on. But most undecided or swing voters probably have no idea what the House is currently doing. If Pelosi truly believes, as she has stated, that impeachable offenses have clearly occurred, why not trust the voters to make an appropriate judgment based on the facts and arguments presented if and when the Senate declines to convict? And it’s not like such a vote by the Senate would eliminate the House’s ability to continue its oversight.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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brian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:41 pm So in your expert political opinion, what happens after impeachment? If the House impeaches him next week and the Senate then acquits him which is obviously how it's gonna play out, how does that make Trump weaker and reduce his chances of winning re-election? There's no wrong answers here. I'm legitimately curious.
Isn't the reverse of that asking how the Dem leadership's constant reinforcing that they don't view his offenses as impeachable serves to weaken him or challenge his party?



(I do appreciate the passive-aggressive "expert political opinion" contrasted with legitimate curiosity.)
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Johnnie wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:25 pm I guess we should just try to impeach him during his 2nd term. Don't want to rush anything. 🤷‍♂️
Well, the goal is to avoid giving him a second term.

I see so many folks on Twitter complain that the Dems won't "stop" Trump, or "rein him in," or whatever. But impeachment will not stop Trump. Removal will stop Trump. But we have no reason to think that impeachment would lead to 67 Senators voting to remove Trump. (At least not based on the evidence that has been reported so far.)

I do think that impeachment is the right thing to do on principle. I've even called the Dem congressman from the adjacent district to urge him to sign onto the impeachment inquiry resolution. (Which he will never do.) But I don't think it will accomplish anything concrete, and I do think there is every reason to believe it could backfire. So I have no real problem with the Dems' slow-walking, gathering documentation from the banks, subpoenaing people like Hope Hicks and Don McGahn, etc. If that uncovers something explosive, great.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:55 pm
brian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:41 pm So in your expert political opinion, what happens after impeachment? If the House impeaches him next week and the Senate then acquits him which is obviously how it's gonna play out, how does that make Trump weaker and reduce his chances of winning re-election? There's no wrong answers here. I'm legitimately curious.
Isn't the reverse of that asking how the Dem leadership's constant reinforcing that they don't view his offenses as impeachable serves to weaken him or challenge his party?



(I do appreciate the passive-aggressive "expert political opinion" contrasted with legitimate curiosity.)

But Pelosi is straight up not saying what you say she is saying. Especially this week, she is saying further hearings and subpeonas will probably show he has committed impeachable offenses. And that he's involved in a cover up. And that he's not fit for the office.

Again, what is your end game on this? Can you at least acknowledge the MASSIVE problem it presents to have the Senate acquit the guy? We're never getting him out of office prior to an election in 2020.

I understand wanting to take a pound of flesh. And Congress absolutely needs to impeach the guy. But given the reality of the situation, the best play here is to stretch this shit out deep into next year. Keep poking the idiot bear and make him look increasingly unhinged.

He's not winning this battle with Pelosi. He looks like a teenager who took his console home after they busted him for using cheat codes.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:53 pmIMO, an impeachment proceeding, regardless of outcome, would get a hell of a lot more attention from undecided voters than the House’s current attempts at oversight.
I get this in theory, but I don't know if we have any basis for assuming this to be true, especially with the existence of conservative media to put their spin on what is being presented in the hearings.

I can't remember Mr. D's exact phrase - is it "this is the thing that will do him in"? Anyway, I agree with Mr. D's point that no public revelation of Trump dishonesty, corruption, or other wrongdoing will really harm Trump. And I think that principle would also apply to revelations that happen in an impeachment proceeding.

Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:53 pm... why not trust the voters to make an appropriate judgment based on the facts and arguments presented ...
That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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So, he's also going to refuse to do any debates next year, right?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Look, we've been over and over this, but I agree with Steve. I want to see him impeached and I'm about 95 percent sure it's eventually going to come to that, but I would rather the House Democrats have every bullet possible in their arsenal before it comes to that. I don't think that's unreasonable. Impeaching Nixon probably would have been impossible without the White House tapes. There could be an equivalent in Trumpland that could even lead to other GOP House members than Amash or a couple GOP Senators voting to impeach/convict. That will have a devastating impact nationally as showing that this isn't some partisan "witchhunt" (to use Trump's idiotic term) and significantly weaken Trump heading into the election.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:04 pm
mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:55 pm
brian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:41 pm So in your expert political opinion, what happens after impeachment? If the House impeaches him next week and the Senate then acquits him which is obviously how it's gonna play out, how does that make Trump weaker and reduce his chances of winning re-election? There's no wrong answers here. I'm legitimately curious.
Isn't the reverse of that asking how the Dem leadership's constant reinforcing that they don't view his offenses as impeachable serves to weaken him or challenge his party?



(I do appreciate the passive-aggressive "expert political opinion" contrasted with legitimate curiosity.)

But Pelosi is straight up not saying what you say she is saying. Especially this week, she is saying further hearings and subpeonas will probably show he has committed impeachable offenses. And that he's involved in a cover up. And that he's not fit for the office.

Again, what is your end game on this? Can you at least acknowledge the MASSIVE problem it presents to have the Senate acquit the guy?
This is a common assumption that I question the validity of. Two years after the GOP failed to convict Clinton in the Senate, they won back the Presidency (despite a strong economy) using a theme of “restoring honor and dignity to the Oval Office.” While I get that Clinton himself wasn’t running in 2000, it’s not like a failed impeachment destroyed the GOP’s electoral prospects.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:04 pmBut Pelosi is straight up not saying what you say she is saying. Especially this week, she is saying further hearings and subpeonas will probably show he has committed impeachable offenses. And that he's involved in a cover up. And that he's not fit for the office.
Until she reverses course on "we will not impeach because that's clearly what he wants", I don't care how much she talks about his impeachable offenses. Its unfathomable to me that we even debate whether good strategy dictates allowing repeated impeachable offenses without action.
Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:04 pmAgain, what is your end game on this? Can you at least acknowledge the MASSIVE problem it presents to have the Senate acquit the guy? We're never getting him out of office prior to an election in 2020.
I don't think, by any means, its gospel that the Senate's inevitable rubber-stamp acquittal is a positive for Trump rather than a negative for 2020 Senators. I don't think even undecideds believe the Senate is an objective body. (Where I do think there would be massive harm done is if Manchin and Manchin adjacents defected yet again to their side.)
Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:04 pmHe's not winning this battle with Pelosi. He looks like a teenager who took his console home after they busted him for using cheat codes.
No, he looks like a teenager who denies using the cheat codes while he continues to happily use the cheat codes.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:05 pm
Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:53 pm... why not trust the voters to make an appropriate judgment based on the facts and arguments presented ...
That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.
If the Democratic Party can’t find a way to effectively message a valid impeachment proceeding followed by a party-line Senate acquittal, then they’re even more anemic than I thought.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:11 pmThis is a common assumption that I question the validity of. Two years after the GOP failed to convict Clinton in the Senate, they won back the Presidency (despite a strong economy) using a theme of “restoring honor and dignity to the Oval Office.” While I get that Clinton himself wasn’t running in 2000, it’s not like a failed impeachment destroyed the GOP’s electoral prospects.
I think the difference is that Clinton didn't go around claiming that the Senate vote exonerated him. Trump will, and he will be backed up by the entire bad-faith right wing noise machine, plus the legacy media reporting not just the acquittal, but also "Trump claims total exoneration".
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:18 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:05 pm
Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:53 pm... why not trust the voters to make an appropriate judgment based on the facts and arguments presented ...
That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.
If the Democratic Party can’t find a way to effectively message a valid impeachment proceeding followed by a party-line Senate acquittal, then they’re even more anemic than I thought.
Please. The voters are who they are.

Plus, if you're explaining, you're losing. If Trump is acquitted, it would be up to the Dems to explain "yeah, but he really was guilty." That's just sore losership at that point.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:23 pmI think the difference is that Clinton didn't go around claiming that the Senate vote exonerated him. Trump will, and he will be backed up by the entire bad-faith right wing noise machine, plus the legacy media reporting not just the acquittal, but also "Trump claims total exoneration".
The flipside is him painting the Dems into a corner of "either you don't think I've done anything impeachment worthy or you do and you're ineffective and abdicating responsibilities". At some point you just have to follow procedure versus trying to out-think a non-thinker.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I think the good news about the electorate largely being uneducated, celebrity-obsessed morons is that it pretty much doesn't matter either way.

The most compelling pro-impeachment argument I've seen anyone make (and one I largely agree with) is that if impeachment or oversight is going to mean anything, then it obviously needs to be used against the most corrupt presidency in at least the last century or so. I just don't see the need to do it immediately after taking over the House and I'm comfortable with letting the process play out a little bit.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:28 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:23 pmI think the difference is that Clinton didn't go around claiming that the Senate vote exonerated him. Trump will, and he will be backed up by the entire bad-faith right wing noise machine, plus the legacy media reporting not just the acquittal, but also "Trump claims total exoneration".
The flipside is him painting the Dems into a corner of "either you don't think I've done anything impeachment worthy or you do and you're ineffective and abdicating responsibilities". At some point you just have to follow procedure versus trying to out-think a non-thinker.
Yeah, I admit that's an argument Trump could make. But that just gets to the two sides arguing against each other. The impeachment acquittal scenario involves both sides arguing against each other, but with Trump being backed up by the acquittal itself as the final resolution of the process.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:11 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:04 pm
mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:55 pm
brian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:41 pm So in your expert political opinion, what happens after impeachment? If the House impeaches him next week and the Senate then acquits him which is obviously how it's gonna play out, how does that make Trump weaker and reduce his chances of winning re-election? There's no wrong answers here. I'm legitimately curious.
Isn't the reverse of that asking how the Dem leadership's constant reinforcing that they don't view his offenses as impeachable serves to weaken him or challenge his party?



(I do appreciate the passive-aggressive "expert political opinion" contrasted with legitimate curiosity.)

But Pelosi is straight up not saying what you say she is saying. Especially this week, she is saying further hearings and subpeonas will probably show he has committed impeachable offenses. And that he's involved in a cover up. And that he's not fit for the office.

Again, what is your end game on this? Can you at least acknowledge the MASSIVE problem it presents to have the Senate acquit the guy?
This is a common assumption that I question the validity of. Two years after the GOP failed to convict Clinton in the Senate, they won back the Presidency (despite a strong economy) using a theme of “restoring honor and dignity to the Oval Office.” While I get that Clinton himself wasn’t running in 2000, it’s not like a failed impeachment destroyed the GOP’s electoral prospects.

First off, they barely eked out that election (many would say they stole it.) Secondly, you really can't compare the tactics that are employed to put a republican into office with how democrats typically run. A bunch of bullshit conspiracy theories (Vince Foster, multiple other murders carried out by some made up Arkansas mafia) were pumped out for 8 years by the whackadoo right wing media, the mouthbreathers gobbled all that up, and you still had to have the Supreme Court hand them FL to win.

The same mouthbreathers that put Bush in office are even WORSE now, meaning Trump running around saying he's exonerated sure as fuck is going to be bought by a huge chunk of the electorate.

Go ahead and roll the dice. We are living in Idiocracy and the only way to stave it off is to acknowledge and be strategic as fuck... Cynical as fuck, frankly, to see our way through.

Trusting the American people is a fucking joke at this point. A solid 35-40 percent can't be reasoned with anymore. We need to stop pretending this isn't a massive crisis and act accordingly.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:06 pm
Joe K wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:11 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:04 pm
mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:55 pm
brian wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 1:41 pm So in your expert political opinion, what happens after impeachment? If the House impeaches him next week and the Senate then acquits him which is obviously how it's gonna play out, how does that make Trump weaker and reduce his chances of winning re-election? There's no wrong answers here. I'm legitimately curious.
Isn't the reverse of that asking how the Dem leadership's constant reinforcing that they don't view his offenses as impeachable serves to weaken him or challenge his party?



(I do appreciate the passive-aggressive "expert political opinion" contrasted with legitimate curiosity.)

But Pelosi is straight up not saying what you say she is saying. Especially this week, she is saying further hearings and subpeonas will probably show he has committed impeachable offenses. And that he's involved in a cover up. And that he's not fit for the office.

Again, what is your end game on this? Can you at least acknowledge the MASSIVE problem it presents to have the Senate acquit the guy?
This is a common assumption that I question the validity of. Two years after the GOP failed to convict Clinton in the Senate, they won back the Presidency (despite a strong economy) using a theme of “restoring honor and dignity to the Oval Office.” While I get that Clinton himself wasn’t running in 2000, it’s not like a failed impeachment destroyed the GOP’s electoral prospects.

First off, they barely eked out that election (many would say they stole it.) Secondly, you really can't compare the tactics that are employed to put a republican into office with how democrats typically run. A bunch of bullshit conspiracy theories (Vince Foster, multiple other murders carried out by some made up Arkansas mafia) were pumped out for 8 years by the whackadoo right wing media, the mouthbreathers gobbled all that up, and you still had to have the Supreme Court hand them FL to win.

The same mouthbreathers that put Bush in office are even WORSE now, meaning Trump running around saying he's exonerated sure as fuck is going to be bought by a huge chunk of the electorate.

Go ahead and roll the dice. We are living in Idiocracy and the only way to stave it off is to acknowledge and be strategic as fuck... Cynical as fuck, frankly, to see our way through.

Trusting the American people is a fucking joke at this point. A solid 35-40 percent can't be reasoned with anymore. We need to stop pretending this isn't a massive crisis and act accordingly.
Truer words have yet to be spoken in this thread.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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So the same public you don't trust to understand the Senate is fully partisan you do trust to understand that while Trump should have been impeached, he wasn't for strategic reasons?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm So the same public you don't trust to understand the Senate is fully partisan you do trust to understand that while Trump should have been impeached, he wasn't for strategic reasons?
I think the argument goes that it’s better to point out the shit on Trump’s shoes closer to the election than it would be to do it this year.

Like say, a week prior to the 2016 election when James Comey announced he was re-opening the investigation into Clinton’s emails.

What a guy.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm So the same public you don't trust to understand the Senate is fully partisan you do trust to understand that while Trump should have been impeached, he wasn't for strategic reasons?
You also don’t need to get the votes of the 35-40% — nor will you, regardless of what happens. You just need to get enough votes from the 10-15% of voters that are actually in play.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm So the same public you don't trust to understand the Senate is fully partisan you do trust to understand that while Trump should have been impeached, he wasn't for strategic reasons?
No. But I would rather they just be faced with arguments on both sides than a report that Trump was acquitted of all charges.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Johnnie »

Hurr Durr maybe Nancy needs the intervention.



Your fucking move, Democrats.
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