Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Joe K wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:04 pm
The Sybian wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:48 pm
Joe K wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:16 pm The questions about Barr/Mueller that I have for everyone criticizing my view on this are as follows:

1. Given that Barr had already signaled a very pro-Executive power view on obstruction, why did Mueller punt on concluding whether Trump committed the offense? Had Mueller concluded that obstruction occurred, wouldn’t it have made it much harder for Barr and/or Congress to give Trump a pass?

2. What specific statement(s) in the Barr letter do you believe are lies or misrepresentations?

You guys can criticize my views on Russiagate all you want (I’m certainly used to it by now), but I have yet to see a convincing answer to either of these questions.
1.) My understanding is that Mueller didn't have the authority to indict Trump for obstruction, and all he could do was lay out the facts on obstruction. The explanation I've heard that makes the most sense, is that Mueller laid out all the evidence for and against obstruction, and left it for Congress to decide. Back when Mueller was first appointed, there were several former prosecutors who worked with Mueller who said they did not think Mueller believed a Special Counsel had the authority to indict a sitting President, and he would lay out the evidence for Congress to decide whether to impeach.
It may very well be true that Mueller did not think he had the authority to indict Trump. But I haven’t seen anyone say that Mueller lacked the authority to say something like “but for the Constitutional issues about indicting a sitting President, the evidence here is sufficient to support a charge of obstruction of justice.” In fact there are multiple reports that DOJ is frustrated with Mueller for not answering that question. And Mueller had to have known that if he just laid out the facts, without making such a conclusion, that it would make it much easier for Barr to clear Trump and for Congress to pass on impeachment. All of which leads me to think that Mueller didn’t think there was a clear case of obstruction here. (But apparently some of his team members did, based on the reports earlier this week.)
Maybe he did say that. Maybe the report says "Trump is guilty as fuck and needs to be executed ASAP." The problem is that only Barr has read the Report, and Mueller's team is prohibited from speaking out. The Starr Report was published in full and sold in book stores, but Mueller is not allowed to publicly speak out. Mueller's silence doesn't prove Barr's summary is accurate, it proves Mueller and his team are unusually disciplined and able to prevent leaks.

I don't know what the Report says, but I have absolutely no reason to trust Barr and Trump's PR victory lap, but we have 2 years of constant lies and open crimes showing we have every reason NOT to believe Barr's letter until someone trustworthy reads the Report. Maybe there is no evidence Trump personally colluded with Russia, but his campaign staff did, and we know this. 100%. Like TV+B said, I can't comprehend your giving Bar the benefit of the doubt, and assuming he is on the level until prove otherwise. He was appointed for the purpose of protecting Trump, so of course I doubt his summary. If a genuinely neutral person not appointed by Trump wrote the same summary, I'd give it more benefit of doubt,
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I am done "debating" this shit until we see what's IN THE FUCKING REPORT.

Seriously, Joe, you are borderline trolling at this point. You don't know what is going on and you are spending an inordinate amount of time throwing out your theories based on a letter from a highly questionable source.

/this topic
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K »

The Sybian wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:27 pm
Joe K wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:04 pm
The Sybian wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:48 pm
Joe K wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:16 pm The questions about Barr/Mueller that I have for everyone criticizing my view on this are as follows:

1. Given that Barr had already signaled a very pro-Executive power view on obstruction, why did Mueller punt on concluding whether Trump committed the offense? Had Mueller concluded that obstruction occurred, wouldn’t it have made it much harder for Barr and/or Congress to give Trump a pass?

2. What specific statement(s) in the Barr letter do you believe are lies or misrepresentations?

You guys can criticize my views on Russiagate all you want (I’m certainly used to it by now), but I have yet to see a convincing answer to either of these questions.
1.) My understanding is that Mueller didn't have the authority to indict Trump for obstruction, and all he could do was lay out the facts on obstruction. The explanation I've heard that makes the most sense, is that Mueller laid out all the evidence for and against obstruction, and left it for Congress to decide. Back when Mueller was first appointed, there were several former prosecutors who worked with Mueller who said they did not think Mueller believed a Special Counsel had the authority to indict a sitting President, and he would lay out the evidence for Congress to decide whether to impeach.
It may very well be true that Mueller did not think he had the authority to indict Trump. But I haven’t seen anyone say that Mueller lacked the authority to say something like “but for the Constitutional issues about indicting a sitting President, the evidence here is sufficient to support a charge of obstruction of justice.” In fact there are multiple reports that DOJ is frustrated with Mueller for not answering that question. And Mueller had to have known that if he just laid out the facts, without making such a conclusion, that it would make it much easier for Barr to clear Trump and for Congress to pass on impeachment. All of which leads me to think that Mueller didn’t think there was a clear case of obstruction here. (But apparently some of his team members did, based on the reports earlier this week.)
Maybe he did say that. Maybe the report says "Trump is guilty as fuck and needs to be executed ASAP." The problem is that only Barr has read the Report, and Mueller's team is prohibited from speaking out.
What’s your source for this? Earlier this year Mueller’s team issued a press statement to correct an incorrect Buzzfeed story so I’m not aware of any legal prohibition on speaking out.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Joe K »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:43 pm I am done "debating" this shit until we see what's IN THE FUCKING REPORT.

Seriously, Joe, you are borderline trolling at this point. You don't know what is going on and you are spending an inordinate amount of time throwing out your theories based on a letter from a highly questionable source.

/this topic
I’m highly amused by the suggestion that I’m the “borderline troll” throwing out theories based on questionable sources given the various Russia-related posts that have been made on this board over the last 3 years.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Joe K wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:52 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:43 pm I am done "debating" this shit until we see what's IN THE FUCKING REPORT.

Seriously, Joe, you are borderline trolling at this point. You don't know what is going on and you are spending an inordinate amount of time throwing out your theories based on a letter from a highly questionable source.

/this topic
I’m highly amused by the suggestion that I’m the “borderline troll” throwing out theories based on questionable sources given the various Russia-related posts that have been made on this board over the last 3 years.
You think Barr is objective, none of us do. This has kicked up 10 days of ridiculous debate of this very basic topic. Everything you are posting about is based on Barr, none of us put any stock in Barr. Round and round.

It's fucking ridiculous behavior by all of us. I really am done with this topic.

We're all on the same side in this at the end of the day. Trump is a piece of shit and deserves to be out of office at the earliest possible juncture.

Have a good weekend, man.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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They all blatantly lie about things that everyone has infact already read. They lie about facts. They lie about math and science and photographs. Their benefit of the doubt is in a toilet inside a dumpster.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Ryan wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:23 pm They all blatantly lie about things that everyone has infact already read. They lie about facts. They lie about math and science and photographs. Their benefit of the doubt is in a toilet inside a dumpster.
They should have done it when he was still a candidate but I would love to see the Washington Post, NY Times or other huge newspaper just say that when it comes to Trump public statements the default position of the paper is that it is a lie unless they can verify any truth. (Which, for better or worse, is essentially the opposite of the way political reporting is typically done.)
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Kirstjen Nielsen Resigns as Trump’s Homeland Security Secretary
Kirstjen Nielsen, the homeland security secretary, resigned on Sunday after meeting with President Trump, ending a tumultuous tenure in charge of the border security agency that had made her the target of the president’s criticism.

“I have determined that it is the right time for me to step aside,” Ms. Nielsen said in a resignation letter. “I hope that the next secretary will have the support of Congress and the courts in fixing the laws which have impeded our ability to fully secure America’s borders and which have contributed to discord in our nation’s discourse.”

Three people familiar with the meeting said Ms. Nielsen had requested it to plan “a way forward” at the border, in part thinking she could have a reasoned conversation with Mr. Trump about her role. After the meeting, she submitted her resignation.

The move comes just two days after Mr. Trump, who has repeatedly expressed anger at a rise in migrants at the southwestern border, withdrew his nominee to run Immigration and Customs Enforcement because he wanted the agency to go in a “tougher” direction.
He wants to go in a "Tougher" direction...tougher then putting little kids in cages?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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So... The director of the Secret Service was just removed by Trump.

That position reports to the Secretary of Homeland Security.

Stephen Miller is in charge right now.

Umm... WTF do you think happens next?

Between the tax returns issues being stymied and calls for Mueller to testify after the release of the report, this mother fucker looks like he's consolidating power.

Also, some Chinese spy lady was caught at Mar-a-Lago doing Chinese spy things. Good times!
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Johnnie wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:06 pm Also, some Chinese spy lady was caught at Mar-a-Lago doing Chinese spy things. Good times!
The Secret Service at Mar-a-lago doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer...
The Secret Service agent who questioned Ms. Zhang after her arrest, Samuel Ivanovich, said during testimony that she did not carry any lock-picking or eavesdropping gear. His four-and-a-half hour interrogation of Ms. Zhang was recorded by video, Mr. Ivanovich said, but it lacked sound because he didn’t realize that the agency’s office in Palm Beach didn’t have that capability.

Mr. Ivanovich testified that the computer analyst who reviewed Ms. Zhang’s devices said that the thumb drive she was carrying had immediately begun installing a program on his computer.

“He stated that he had to immediately stop the analysis and shut off his computer to halt the corruption,” Mr. Ivanovich said.
I'm not an expert in cyber-security, but I'm pretty sure that just sticking a thumb drive carried by a suspected spy into a computer isn't the best approach.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I enjoyed the analogy of finding a gun potentially used in a murder and immediately starting to fire it.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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No big deal...just the President giving Border Agents illegal orders.

Trump pushed to close El Paso border, told admin officials to resume family separations and agents not to admit migrants
Behind the scenes, two sources told CNN, the President told border agents to not let migrants in. Tell them we don’t have the capacity, he said. If judges give you trouble, say, “Sorry, judge, I can’t do it. We don’t have the room.”

After the President left the room, agents sought further advice from their leaders, who told them they were not giving them that direction and if they did what the President said they would take on personal liability. You have to follow the law, they were told.
When do the 'Shoot to Kill' orders come along?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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DaveInSeattle wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:12 pm No big deal...just the President giving Border Agents illegal orders

When do the 'Shoot to Kill' orders come along?
January 20th, 2017.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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What l-jam said. Pretty sure he’s given those kind of illegal orders from the start.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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mister d wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:24 pm I enjoyed the analogy of finding a gun potentially used in a murder and immediately starting to fire it.
While staring down the barrel to see what happens.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Her "assault on Jews" was an attack on Stephen Miller that had nothing to do with the fact that he is a Jew.

Fuck this guy.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Pruitt wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:54 am
What was it? It's been deleted.
well this is gonna be someone's new signature - bronto
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Giff wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:09 pm
Pruitt wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:54 am
What was it? It's been deleted.
Yeah, it was something with the theme from "The Dark Knight" playing. I just thought it was insane that the President was posting shit that violated copyright.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Johnnie »

There's that William Barr acting in good faith again!

William Barr Gives Trump What He Wants, Forms Team to Investigate the F.B.I

The grumblings online say this sets the table for pardons.

Huh. Go figure!

William Barr and pardons for criminal behavior. Name a more iconic duo.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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sancarlos wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:51 pm
So this means the approach they will take is, yeah, maybe they found some stuff, but they did it illegally and never should have started looking?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Basically. The tack is going to be that it was an "illegal" investigation. Already seen some other top Republicans start dropping some breadcrumbs about it as well. Even Trump started in that via Tweets today I think but I have his shit blocked.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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A_B wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:51 pm
So this means the approach they will take is, yeah, maybe they found some stuff, but they did it illegally and never should have started looking?

I think this was the strategy behind Trump declaring it illegal to look into his personal and business finances. Fucking insane, and his base eats it up.

When it came out that Carter Page was under investigation through FISA warrants, Trump first announced Page wasn't part of his team, then just a coffee boy nobody. Then he used Page to prove the FBI went after his key campaign members to bring him down. He constantly makes conflicting arguments, and the base give full throated support to both arguments. I fucking hate disagreeing with idiots, because logic and facts don't constrain them. Then there is the fact that Page was under surveillance since 2013, but Trump doesn't vet anyone, or care that he is surrounding himself with criminals and morally bankrupt kleptocrats. He hires a suspected Russian agent, and blames the FBI for surveilling the guy he hired. It's amazing how he gets away with constant brazen illegality and any mention of his crimes is a partisan hack job. Trump hands out security clearances to 25 people who were flagged as unsuitable for clearance, and he pulls or threatens to pull clearance from people like John Brennan and Adam Schiff for actually doing their job and trying to hold him accountable.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Then there's this:

DHS, FBI say election systems in all 50 states were targeted in 2016

So Barr is in place to run interference and establish that what was criminal isn't criminal. And now there's a story that plants the seeds for an illegitimate election in 2020.

This is fucked.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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This profile/pull-piece on Ivanka is bat-shit crazy on a multitude of levels...

Inside Ivanka’s Dreamworld
In our conversation, the president wanted to be clear: He was very proud of all his children. “Barron is young, but he’s got wonderful potential,” he said. “And Tiffany’s doing extremely well. Don is, uh, he’s enjoying politics; actually, it’s very good. And Eric is running the business along with Don, and also very much into politics. I mean, the children—the children have been very, very good.”

But Ivanka, whom he sometimes calls “Baby” in official meetings, is “unique.” If Trump sees any of his children as his heir apparent, it’s Ivanka. “If she ever wanted to run for president,” he said, “I think she’d be very, very hard to beat.”
It gets worse from there.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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How is releasing immigrants into sanctuary cities "retaliation"? Explain it like I am the idiot i am.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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If you don't want them in cages, I will put them next to you so they can kidnap your liberal wife
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Ryan wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:14 pm If you don't want them in cages, I will put them next to you so they can kidnap your liberal wife
But these are the cities that said they wouldn't cooperate, which seems to indicate to me that they wouldn't have a problem, other than housing, but again, if these cities were willing to be sancuaries, then that seems like a problem the cities would be willing to face? I dunno.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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A_B wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:08 pm How is releasing immigrants into sanctuary cities "retaliation"? Explain it like I am the idiot i am.
You have to think like Trump -- which admittedly and fortunately is hard -- but he thinks that liberals don't really believe we shouldn't be caging immigrants and is somehow trying to force these cities to call his bluff.

It really all goes back to a truism amongst racist conservatives that they believe that liberals harbor racist feelings as well, but are "acting" out of fear of allowing their true feelings out. It's somehow incomprehensible to someone like Stephen Miller, Ben Shapiro (or Trump obvs) that there's tens of millions of us who actually appreciate other cultures and other ethnicities and aren't just putting on an act to show that we're "woke".
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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I can see that. But "releasing the detainees to own the libs" seems like a strange strategy.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Yeah, but we're talking about Fox News Grandpa, not some genius.

As you indicated there are logistical issues as well if ICE somehow just dumped tens of thousands of would-be immigrants with no housing and little money someplace like San Francisco or Seattle, but what Trump truly doesn't understand is that most left-leaning people in those places really would welcome it if the logistics could be figured out.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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A_B wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:16 pm
Ryan wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:14 pm If you don't want them in cages, I will put them next to you so they can kidnap your liberal wife
But these are the cities that said they wouldn't cooperate, which seems to indicate to me that they wouldn't have a problem, other than housing, but again, if these cities were willing to be sancuaries, then that seems like a problem the cities would be willing to face? I dunno.
Sanctuary cities just means that government agencies won't extend beyond their legal authority to hold, report or detain illegal immigrants. This is a problematic term, as the Right weaponizes the term to make people think these cities are actively working to hide and protect illegals. The best argument for sanctuary cities is the example of an illegal resident afraid to report a crime, because they are afraid of being deported. A sanctuary city announces they will not check your legal residency status when you report a crime. ICE has requested police departments and state and county jails to hold illegal aliens longer than they are authorized to hold them. Sanctuary cities refuse to extend their legal ability to detain people, even if they are illegally in the country.

If a police officer stops a driver for speeding, and they have a drivers license and registration, local police do not have the authority to question immigration status. The federal government has asked them to detain illegal aliens solely because of their immigration status. Sanctuary cities refuse to do this. Sanctuary cities don't provide protection or keep ICE out, they just don't do ICE's work for them, which they legally don't have the authority to do.

Here is a god clip from Velshi & Ruhle explaining. It's really disturbing, if true, that Trump, who pretends to be so afraid of illegal immigrants entering our country, is happy to transport them to districts of Congressional enemies as an act of revenge, and set them free as an act of political revenge.


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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Rex »

I'm with AB, I don't understand how it's retaliation and not capitulation. Isn't this the same thing as saying that illegals can move to sanctuary cities and we're not going to do anything about it? The rest is just theater.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by sancarlos »

Jeez, you guys. Sanctuary cities residents believe these people should be treated humanely, in the respects noted by Sybian. I think it's a bit disingenuous for anybody to then think it is innocent or productive or innocuous to then say, "OK, then. We are going to round them all up all over the country and dump them in your city".
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

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Rex wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:48 pm I'm with AB, I don't understand how it's retaliation and not capitulation. Isn't this the same thing as saying that illegals can move to sanctuary cities and we're not going to do anything about it? The rest is just theater.
For starters, if Trump actually believed his own rhetoric, these people are rapists, murders, and pose an existential crisis to our national security..., so let's load them up into buses and dump them in districts that don't vote for me. This is actively driving them deeper into the country instead of driving them over the border, as an act of political revenge.

As I mentioned above, sanctuary cities don't protect or harbor illegal aliens, they just refuse to extend beyond their legal authority in actively working to deport illegals. Being an undocumented alien is not a criminal offense, it is a civil violation that state and local authorities are not legally authorized to enforce. Sanctuary cities choose to act within their legal authority. This is very different than harboring or protecting illegal aliens. Sanctuary cities don't necessary want or welcome illegals, they just choose not to extend their authority to help ICE.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by brian »

It's definitely retaliation and it's definitely illegal, but would still be nice to see the mayors of some of these cities call his bluff and say they'd welcome as many immigrants as they can as long as it keeps them out of Trump's border camps.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Yeah, this isn't super complicated. Trump and Fox News have used caravans and illegals at the border as a means of importing crime and disease. So when he says he's going to dump this cohort in enemy territory, it's very clearly meant to play to his base that the Big City Liberals who talk such a big game are gonna see what it's like when immigrants are dropped off in their backyard.

Stop using logic to try and argue with or figure out Trump and his mouthbreathing brigade.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by A_B »

It just seems like a real opening for someone to do what Brian said. Maybe even someone higher up than a mayor. People are referring to it as a humanitarian crisis, so there are some political points to be gained if the logistics could be figured out.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part III - A Democratic House

Post by Nonlinear FC »

A_B wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:42 pm It just seems like a real opening for someone to do what Brian said. Maybe even someone higher up than a mayor. People are referring to it as a humanitarian crisis, so there are some political points to be gained if the logistics could be figured out.
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