2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:12 pm

Johnnie wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:00 pm
"Electability" is a self fulfilling prophecy. You have it once you've been elected. We need to stop pretending it's anything but.
Again, a fair point but it works the same way as the primaries. The most electable candidate from any primary in the general election is the one who, you know, won the most votes.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Shirley » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:49 pm

One thing this crisis should be showing (not that this board really needs convincing) is that Bernie's policies for universal healthcare and better conditions for the working class were EXACTLY the right things to focus on. One disaster and now even Republicans are sounding like New Deal Democrats.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:16 am

Shirley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:49 pm
One thing this crisis should be showing (not that this board really needs convincing) is that Bernie's policies for universal healthcare and better conditions for the working class were EXACTLY the right things to focus on. One disaster and now even Republicans are sounding like New Deal Democrats.
And Yang's UBI. Although, I think he shot too low with a grand a month. That should go up to $2k. (Or maybe in times of crisis it should. I don't know.)
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Joe K » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:09 am

Shirley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:49 pm
One thing this crisis should be showing (not that this board really needs convincing) is that Bernie's policies for universal healthcare and better conditions for the working class were EXACTLY the right things to focus on. One disaster and now even Republicans are sounding like New Deal Democrats.
Not to mention that one of the main Biden/Buttigieg arguments against M4A — that people want to keep their employer-provided health insurance — looks awfully weak now that tens of millions of Americans are likely to lose their jobs (and insurance) as a result of this crisis.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Shirley » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:02 am

Yeah, Lloyd Blankfein got a lot of criticism (and deservedly so, because fuck that guy) for offering his opinion that we need to get the economy going again. But he made the point that a recession is a health issue too and he was 100% right. But WHY is he right? Why should it matter to folks health if the economy takes a serious downturn?

On one hand, not being able to eat as well (healthy food is often more expensive), stress of not being able to pay bills - OK, fine. Those are reasonable helath-related correlations to a recession. But the inability to get reasonable healthcare absolutely should NOT be tied to your employment. I think nearly everyone gets that, but maybe it takes something like this - a massive double hit to both jobs and healthcare - to drive that otherwise obvious point home.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by DSafetyGuy » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:17 am

Johnnie wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:16 am
Shirley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:49 pm
One thing this crisis should be showing (not that this board really needs convincing) is that Bernie's policies for universal healthcare and better conditions for the working class were EXACTLY the right things to focus on. One disaster and now even Republicans are sounding like New Deal Democrats.
And Yang's UBI. Although, I think he shot too low with a grand a month. That should go up to $2k. (Or maybe in times of crisis it should. I don't know.)
Figure out a cost of living adjustment to UBI and you're getting there. Just replicating our move 6 1/2 years ago, our suburb is 45.1% cheaper than Los Angeles and Syracuse itself is 54.4% cheaper.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:49 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:17 am
Johnnie wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:16 am
Shirley wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:49 pm
One thing this crisis should be showing (not that this board really needs convincing) is that Bernie's policies for universal healthcare and better conditions for the working class were EXACTLY the right things to focus on. One disaster and now even Republicans are sounding like New Deal Democrats.
And Yang's UBI. Although, I think he shot too low with a grand a month. That should go up to $2k. (Or maybe in times of crisis it should. I don't know.)
Figure out a cost of living adjustment to UBI and you're getting there. Just replicating our move 6 1/2 years ago, our suburb is 45.1% cheaper than Los Angeles and Syracuse itself is 54.4% cheaper.
That's what the miliary does for us living abroad: gives us all COLA. And that's on top of paying a housing allowance and utilities allowance. I made a shit ton of money being stationed in Germany and could legitimately bank a bunch into my TSP without even worrying about anything else.

Your example is spot on for a stateside equivalent. My basic allowance for housing (BAH, calculator here - just plug in a zip code and rank) in Albuquerque compared to a place like SoCal or Boston is radically different. Hell, if I got back to Tucson I'd get a $300 a month raise and the housing market is very close to ABQ.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:53 pm

Can you imagine who would be appointed to set up the initial baseline calcs?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:57 pm

I mean, it's kinda already there. If you do it by zip code and scale it a bit you can get to a happy medium.

Like, I'll get BAH for an E-5 with dependents if I go to a brick and mortar school in a particular area. That's a benefit of the Post 9/11 GI Bill.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:24 pm

But lets say this was going to be used across the nation where, theoretically, "the libz" would stand to benefit on paper.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:12 pm

Oh. Yea. Can't have freeloaders freeloading. Gotta pick yourselves up by your bootstraps.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:56 pm

rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 am

If only there were an alternative to this guy. One that has progressive politics and a track record for always being front and center on what it takes to help people.

Oh, and one that doesn't get accused of this stuff.



Good thing liberals put themselves into a corner with Times Up and Me Too.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by tennbengal » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:23 am

Johnnie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 am
If only there were an alternative to this guy. One that has progressive politics and a track record for always being front and center on what it takes to help people.

Oh, and one that doesn't get accused of this stuff.



Good thing liberals put themselves into a corner with Times Up and Me Too.
Based on 2016, it just makes him electable.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by A_B » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:24 am

Trump dying to call him "joey Fingers" now.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Shirley » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:30 am

God, our country is such a fucking mess.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Giff » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am

Johnnie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 am
If only there were an alternative to this guy. One that has progressive politics and a track record for always being front and center on what it takes to help people.

Oh, and one that doesn't get accused of this stuff.



Good thing liberals put themselves into a corner with Times Up and Me Too.
There was and he could barely win any states that didn't border his. You'd think he'd have done a lot better against such an awful candidate!
Muh.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:00 am

If it turns the media cycle around to the fact that Donald Trump has been credibly accused of sexual assault something like 20 times, then it's probably a good thing.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:06 am

Giff wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am
Johnnie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 am
If only there were an alternative to this guy. One that has progressive politics and a track record for always being front and center on what it takes to help people.

Oh, and one that doesn't get accused of this stuff.



Good thing liberals put themselves into a corner with Times Up and Me Too.
There was and he could barely win any states that didn't border his. You'd think he'd have done a lot better against such an awful candidate!
Oh man, seems like that electorate is totally cool with sexual assault unless it's a Republican! Maybe they aren't the most intelligent and vote for the "safe" and "electable" choice! It's almost like voting against your own self interest! #woke

Wait, do you hear that? Is it a bird or a plane?

Nope just the inevitable OH MY GOD STOP USING RIGHT WING TALKING POINTS talking point.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Giff » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:18 am

You said "if only there was an alternative to this guy". I was just reminded you there was and the people who turned out to vote rejected him by a pretty large margin. I'd rather have Sanders as the nominee as I promise I'm way more fucking liberal than you, but he got beat.
Muh.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by tennbengal » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:27 am

I am guessing my choice, Elizabeth Warren, also hasn’t sexually assaulted anyone, but she also got beat.
Last edited by tennbengal on Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by A_B » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:30 am

tennbengal wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:27 am
I am guessing my choice, Elizabeth Warren, also hasn’t sensually assaulted anyone, but she also got beat.
That sounds like a respectable way to do it, and I think I'd be OK with it.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Joe K » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:38 am

Giff wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:18 am
You said "if only there was an alternative to this guy". I was just reminded you there was and the people who turned out to vote rejected him by a pretty large margin. I'd rather have Sanders as the nominee as I promise I'm way more fucking liberal than you, but he got beat.
Part of the issue though is that all of the flaws of Biden that will be used against him in the general election got way less coverage from major networks and newspapers -- and way less criticism from other Democratic candidates -- than Sanders' flaws. This particular allegation wasn't out there but there are countless videos out there of Biden acting towards women and girls in a way we all would be outraged by if it were our boss or uncle doing that to our wives and daughters. That issue got a brief blip of attention early on, but overall far less media coverage during the contested part of the primary than the supposed online meanness of Sanders supporters who had no affiliation with the campaign. You could do a similar comparison of Biden's coverage to Warren's if you like.

The point is that you can't just say: voters chose X over Y, therefore X is better or more electable, when the choice presented was "best possible framing of X" vs. "very negative framing of Y." That's the entire theory behind the idea of "manufacturing consent." Also, if election results wash away bad behavior, why were Democrats so upset about Brett Kavanaugh. Voters knew the Supreme Court stakes, and chose to have a GOP Senate. Tough shit. Isn't that the logical extension of what you're saying?

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by tennbengal » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:54 am

A_B wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:30 am
tennbengal wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:27 am
I am guessing my choice, Elizabeth Warren, also hasn’t sensually assaulted anyone, but she also got beat.
That sounds like a respectable way to do it, and I think I'd be OK with it.
Heh. Weird auto-correct.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:56 am

Unless more women come forward, this is a losing approach from Trump to point this out. Imagine how this goes in a debate.

Trump: "What about Sleepy Joe fingering an intern 25 years ago? Why doesn't the fake news media every talk about that?"

Biden: "Why doesn't the media ever mention the 20-plus credible accusations of rape against President Trump, including by his first ex-wife?"
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:57 am

If there even is a debate, I don't at all trust Biden to properly articulate any of what you just said nor do I trust anyone will care. One side cares about sexual assault claims against men, and its the side relying on Biden. Its not the same even if it should be the same.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Shirley » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:01 am

It's certainly reasonable to wonder if Biden still would have beat Warren and Sanders if this accusation had come out two months ago.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:24 am

That all assumes it isn't some right-wing smear by a group smarter than Jacob Wohl.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Shirley » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:44 am

I think I read that she's accused him before, so this isn't entirely new. What's new is the detail that he fingered her, which obviously makes it a more serious accusation.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:49 am

brian wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:24 am
That all assumes it isn't some right-wing smear by a group smarter than Jacob Wohl.
Just write it off as probably some jealous hater Bernie Bro.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Joe K » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am

Shirley wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:44 am
I think I read that she's accused him before, so this isn't entirely new. What's new is the detail that he fingered her, which obviously makes it a more serious accusation.
There are at least two witnesses who have said that Reade (the accuser) told them about this shortly after it happened. Also, there is apparently some stuff in a book Jane Mayer published in 1994 about the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill issue about Biden being known to cross the line with female staffers. (Reade is saying that Biden assaulted her in 1993.)

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:59 am

Just think, if liberals didn't marry themselves to the notion of "immediately guilty and fuck you for thinking otherwise," we wouldn't be in such a pickle!
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:14 pm

Not sure that's the proper lesson here.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:38 pm

It's a lesson. But the lesson is to stop sexually harassing women.

Him pre-selecting a woman as a Veep and a black woman for an eventual SCOTUS position looks completely like pandering mixed with a way to make up for his past. It doesn't feel genuine now.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by govmentchedda » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm

Johnnie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:38 pm
It's a lesson. But the lesson is to stop sexually harassing women.

Him pre-selecting a woman as a Veep and a black woman for an eventual SCOTUS position looks completely like pandering mixed with a way to make up for his past. It doesn't feel genuine now.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Giff » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:46 pm

Right, chedda?
Muh.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:55 pm

govmentchedda wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Johnnie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:38 pm
It's a lesson. But the lesson is to stop sexually harassing women.

Him pre-selecting a woman as a Veep and a black woman for an eventual SCOTUS position looks completely like pandering mixed with a way to make up for his past. It doesn't feel genuine now.
GTFOH
Where's the issue?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by rass » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:59 pm

mister d wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:55 pm
govmentchedda wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Johnnie wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:38 pm
It's a lesson. But the lesson is to stop sexually harassing women.

Him pre-selecting a woman as a Veep and a black woman for an eventual SCOTUS position looks completely like pandering mixed with a way to make up for his past. It doesn't feel genuine now.
GTFOH
Where's the issue?
It was maybe at least a little bit pandering before this came out, but that's probably not what you meant.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:04 pm

Its not like Anita Hill hadn't happened when he made the pledge. Whether or not this ever came out, it was still pandering at the time, albeit positive direction pandering.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:27 pm

The literal baseline is "believe all women" and even Biden said that himself. And after Democrats have eaten their own over sexual harassment and assault allegations, the only way to play this and not look like a hypocrite is to do the same for Biden. So we'll see how the establishment reacts.

So it's probable and likely that he wants to be progressive on issues genuinely and involve women at high political positions, but it doesn't feel that way because of his past and the current climate right now.

I really don't care if you get mad at me for that.
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