2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:11 am

*Landslide in theory because mail in voting is going to be reduced and a lot of voting centers will be closed.

So we'll see.

Also, I didn't realize this was a thing. It's hilarious.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by The Sybian » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:14 am

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:07 am

I'm with Citgo. As many of you probably know. I think this is going to be an absolute landslide.
I said that in 2016, so I have no faith until Trump leaves the White House.

I do think 2020 is infinitely different, as Trump ran on change and disrupting the system. Now he is the system, and he hasn't altered his message. Vote for me because the status quo sucks is a hard sell when you've been in charge for 3.5 years. I also think a lot of Trump votes came from voting against Hillary rather than liking Trump. Biden doesn't bring that kind of hatred out in anyone (much like he doesn't bring the passionate support). Some Obama haters will hate Biden for being part of Obama's team, but they are all voting for Trump anyways. Trump has been banking on running on the economy and being a businessman, and that strategy just fell in the crapper.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:17 am

I was always worried about Hillary, and then took a trip down to NC right before the election and saw nothing but Trump signs (including in most of the stretch through VA) and had my suspicions/concerns validated. So much hatred built up long before she was a candidate.

More importantly (IMO): This is going to be pretty much a one issue election. And Trump is showing no signs of dealing with that one issue in any kind of coherent way.

By the time we got to October, we're going to have at least 250k deaths. And countless others that went through very shitty health scares. As Citgo said, you just loop "I take no responsibility" and that's pretty much that.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:19 am

mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:11 am
brian wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:03 am
I'm not shitting on you, I'm just saying if you think people are going to accept another four years of Trump because of who the candidate is, that's fucking stupid. That's literally all I'm saying.
Do you need a list of the things people have accepted over the last 3.5 years that they (and I) would have swore we'd never accept if asked in 2014? When is the last time this board has even talked about the kids imprisoned without their parents at the border?
As horrible as that and any number of similar arguments you could make are, those don't directly impact most Americans. I gave money to RAICES in Texas, you might have as well but I'm not going to go to a ICE facility here in Nevada and start throwing Molotov cocktails at the prison guards.

I think the last few months have shown that people will take to the streets if necessary. They'll do it for Biden just as likely as they'd have done it for Sanders.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:20 am

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:17 am
I was always worried about Hillary, and then took a trip down to NC right before the election and saw nothing but Trump signs (including in most of the stretch through VA) and had my suspicions/concerns validated. So much hatred built up long before she was a candidate.

More importantly (IMO): This is going to be pretty much a one issue election. And Trump is showing no signs of dealing with that one issue in any kind of coherent way.

By the time we got to October, we're going to have at least 250k deaths. And countless others that went through very shitty health scares. As Citgo said, you just loop "I take no responsibility" and that's pretty much that.
That's fine, but "I'm confident full and secure voting by state would lead to an electoral college win for Biden" isn't close to the entire equation here.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:21 am

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:17 am
I was always worried about Hillary, and then took a trip down to NC right before the election and saw nothing but Trump signs (including in most of the stretch through VA) and had my suspicions/concerns validated. So much hatred built up long before she was a candidate.

More importantly (IMO): This is going to be pretty much a one issue election. And Trump is showing no signs of dealing with that one issue in any kind of coherent way.

By the time we got to October, we're going to have at least 250k deaths. And countless others that went through very shitty health scares. As Citgo said, you just loop "I take no responsibility" and that's pretty much that.
I hope you're right. I even think you're right. We're all spooked by 2016 and the fact that Trump will have the advantage of utilizing the power of the federal government to ratfuck the election every chance he gets which he didn't have in 2016 either so my concern is that balances things out.

That said, if COVID and the economy continue to trend in this direction it's hard to see a path to victory for him outside of straight fraud.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:30 am

brian wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:19 am
I think the last few months have shown that people will take to the streets if necessary. They'll do it for Biden just as likely as they'd have done it for Sanders.
1. The people out there now assuming all the risk by and large would view Biden with something between apathy and disdain.
2. If Trump refuses to leave and has the police depts and the dumbest of our armed citizens defending him, the amount of people who have already protested won't make the smallest dent.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by The Sybian » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:30 am

Johnnie wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:11 am
*Landslide in theory because mail in voting is going to be reduced and a lot of voting centers will be closed.

So we'll see.

Also, I didn't realize this was a thing. It's hilarious.

This is the greatest thing ever.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by The Sybian » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:05 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:30 am
brian wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:19 am
I think the last few months have shown that people will take to the streets if necessary. They'll do it for Biden just as likely as they'd have done it for Sanders.
1. The people out there now assuming all the risk by and large would view Biden with something between apathy and disdain.
2. If Trump refuses to leave and has the police depts and the dumbest of our armed citizens defending him, the amount of people who have already protested won't make the smallest dent.
I'm with D on this one. I don't think an election stolen from Biden gets nearly the same response an election stolen from Sanders would get. Yes, people will be pissed and say its fucked up, but the people willing to actually go out and protest or do something aren't by and large fans of Biden. I believe most Bernie/Warren supporters will vote for Biden over Trump, but they aren't excited about it. I think a lot of them feel Biden won the primary by the DNC putting their finger on the scale, so are they going to protest for the guy who they perceived received systemic help in beating their candidate?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:13 pm

Yes, people will be rip shit, no matter the candidate, if it is obvious Trump is just stealing it.

You guys are way too focused on Biden, when the reality of this election is that people hate Trump and want him the fuck out. Period. People would literally vote for a dead frog at this point.

Hate is a very strong emotion, and it's not going anywhere until he's out of the WH.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:15 pm

A lot of white folks are marching in the street for BLM. You guys don't think even more mainstream ppl won't hit the streets if Trump tries to steal this??

I hadn't marched since 1980... I hit the streets with millions of others Jan 2017. And that was out of just straight frustration. Stealing an election? I'm throwing shit through Trump's hotel windows. Shit will burn.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:15 pm

Maybe I have a very different vision of what the citizens trying to remove an illegitimate president would look like, but in mine a lot of innocent people are dying. People marching en masse makes them easy, high volume targets for psychotic Trump 2Aers.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:20 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:15 pm
Maybe I have a very different vision of what the citizens trying to remove an illegitimate president would look like, but in mine a lot of innocent people are dying. People marching en masse makes them easy, high volume targets for psychotic Trump 2Aers.
And if it comes to that, we'll send as many fascists as possible to hell as well. I'm not saying there's no danger, but you're giving too much credit to his supporters. The people you see with guns outside the state capitols are pussies. The reason they have so many guns is because they're pussies, scared and weak. I know a lot of Trump supporters and they would piss their pants in a real fight.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:17 pm

We had mass shootings weekly before all this. If there are "libs in the streets trying to destroy (you/us)" and those people are told this is the end, we'll have them daily or more.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:43 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:17 pm
We had mass shootings weekly before all this. If there are "libs in the streets trying to destroy (you/us)" and those people are told this is the end, we'll have them daily or more.
Then we'll get a crash course in building IEDs, buying assault weapons and doing some mass shootings of our own I guess then, huh?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:01 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:15 pm
A lot of white folks are marching in the street for BLM. You guys don't think even more mainstream ppl won't hit the streets if Trump tries to steal this??

I hadn't marched since 1980... I hit the streets with millions of others Jan 2017. And that was out of just straight frustration. Stealing an election? I'm throwing shit through Trump's hotel windows. Shit will burn.
Bingo. The Women's March right around Trump's inauguration - those were all people who desperately want to see Trump go.

I know it's hard for some folks to comprehend this sometime, but there are millions of people who actually feel personally threatened by Trump and his presidency. Women, racial and religious minorities, gays, etc., plus those who worry about them. These people are strongly opposed to Trump and no way would they stand for anything that stopped the normal process.

The only people who seem even remotely willing to comprehend another four years of Trump are some of the Bernie fans. Those are the only people who have ever suggested that there isn't that big of a difference between Trump and Biden or the Dems and Republicans.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:07 pm

brian wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:03 am
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:40 am
I do think Florida and North Carolina are both winnable, as well as Arizona. Wisconsin and even Minnesota make me nervous. Those are places with just enough minorities to activate White Fear but not enough to overcome it.
If you're worried at all about White Fear, then Florida and North Carolina are absolutely unwinnable then (relative to Wisconsin and Minnesota).
I dunno. I think the influx of Latinos triggers just as much White Fear as the existence of Blacks does, and I think there is more demographic change in those northern white states than southern ones. At the very least, the white folks there perceive more demographic change as they see more signs in Spanish, Mexican restaurants, etc.

Places like NC and Florida have always had larger minority populations, so (i) there would be less triggering resulting from perceived demographic change, and (ii) the votes of those minorities helps counteract the White Fear votes.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:19 am

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:27 am

That's literally about a perfect answer. He's definitively asserting how the Justice Department is supposed to operate under a functioning executive branch.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:32 am

Yes, I'm very inspired by him saying he doesn't believe in prosecuting former presidents and leaving up any parts of a border wall with Mexico that get constructed under GOP control. The perfect candidate for the middle and left.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:36 am

So the answer to a president abusing the rule of law is to have the next president abuse the rule of law. Got it.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by DSafetyGuy » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:38 am

I'm very inspired by the change of convention location so as to not risk anyone's health.

Certainly could not have been determined months ago.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:42 am

brian wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:36 am
So the answer to a president abusing the rule of law is to have the next president abuse the rule of law. Got it.
I guess I'm choosing not to pretend that outlining the law with the caveat that the justice dept following said law would be a "very unusual thing and probably not very ... good for democracy" is a neutral position.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:46 am

Then he goes on to say that he wouldn't stand in the way of the Justice Department if they brought charges.

I realize you hate Biden, but even if you interpret the statement at face value, it's NOT very good for democracy to have a former president indicted by the next administration, even one as corrupt as Trump, but nowhere does he say it wouldn't happen. I'll start to worry if he says shit like this during the transition after being elected or when naming his AG. For now, it's all politics and appearances.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:48 am

If Biden picks Susan Rice as VP and tabs Kamala Harris as AG do you REALLY think she's not going to go after Trump for breaking the law? C'mon.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:53 am

brian wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:46 am
Then he goes on to say that he wouldn't stand in the way of the Justice Department if they brought charges.

I realize you hate Biden, but even if you interpret the statement at face value, it's NOT very good for democracy to have a former president indicted by the next administration, even one as corrupt as Trump, but nowhere does he say it wouldn't happen. I'll start to worry if he says shit like this during the transition after being elected or when naming his AG. For now, it's all politics and appearances.
This.

Mr. D, are you really claiming that prosecuting a former President is not "very unusual"? Are you really claiming that having one administration prosecute the preceding one is generally a good practice for a democracy?

Or are you claiming that Biden *should* stand in the way of the Justice Department if they do decide to bring charges?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:56 am

"Even though I am farther left* than ninety-five percent of the country, the Democratic presidential nominee should only say things I agree with."

*On economic socialism anyway.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:04 pm

This whole thread is good, esp in light of the Bloomberg stuff last page:
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:05 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:53 am
Mr. D, are you really claiming that prosecuting a former President is not "very unusual"? Are you really claiming that having one administration prosecute the preceding one is generally a good practice for a democracy?
No and absolutely.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by A_B » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:19 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:05 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:53 am
Mr. D, are you really claiming that prosecuting a former President is not "very unusual"? Are you really claiming that having one administration prosecute the preceding one is generally a good practice for a democracy?
No and absolutely.
I think I'd just prefer it if my President didn't do crimes, but that's a big ask.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:38 pm

Agreed, and maybe if the opposition party continues their recent history of pretending they have zero ability to sway public opinion and opines prosecution would actually be bad, he'll stop doing the crimes?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:17 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:38 pm
Agreed, and maybe if the opposition party continues their recent history of pretending they have zero ability to sway public opinion and opines prosecution would actually be bad, he'll stop doing the crimes?
"Zero ability to sway public opinion." Trump's disapproval rating is 55 percent. His strong disapproval rating is around 40 percent. Public opinion has been swayed. But public opinion does not stop Presidential crimes.

Hell, the Dems impeached the mother fucker. They laid his crimes out for the country and the world to see. He's still criming.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:21 pm

Impeachment is a great example. They took forever on it and the fact that they finally acted was immediately reflected in opinion polling.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:58 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:21 pm
Impeachment is a great example. They took forever on it and the fact that they finally acted was immediately reflected in opinion polling.

image.png
Yup. And it accomplished exactly nothing. IIRC, some folks here were sure that the overwhelming wave of support for impeachment would force Republican senators to vote to remove the President. Not only was there no overwhelming wave of support - despite clear evidence of Trump holding $400 million in military aid hostage to promote his own personal interests - but only one Republican voted to remove.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:11 pm

I'd love to go back because I don't remember anyone here thinking impeachment would work in the sense of leading to his removal, only that it was essential to setting precedent and getting those senators on record backing him.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by The Sybian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:21 pm

brian wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:46 am
Then he goes on to say that he wouldn't stand in the way of the Justice Department if they brought charges.

I realize you hate Biden, but even if you interpret the statement at face value, it's NOT very good for democracy to have a former president indicted by the next administration, even one as corrupt as Trump, but nowhere does he say it wouldn't happen. I'll start to worry if he says shit like this during the transition after being elected or when naming his AG. For now, it's all politics and appearances.
Mister D, I usually agree with your knocks on Biden, but I think he took the correct approach here. The President should have no influence over the AG. Once appointed, the AG an Justice Dept are supposed to act without regard for political interests. Biden isn't saying he is going to prevent his AG from indicting Trump, and he is factually correct. I'd be concerned if a candidate outright said their goal was to win so they can prosecute to previous President.

I know your fear is that Biden will actively prevent his AG, or select an AG with an understanding that they won't prosecute Trump. I do share that concern and I think Biden is the most likely of all the Dem candidates to avoid prosecuting Trump to create the appearance of working across the aisle, which of course the Republicans with ferociously exploit. I just don't take this comment as a sign that he will protect Trump, and actually feel a little better that he won't prevent his AG from prosecuting Trump.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:04 pm

If your kid says they want to go to a party, mid-COVID, and you it would be pretty unusual and not very good, have you taken a neutral position?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:08 pm

Same as "if I'm elected president, I wouldn't have any input into this process, but the laws should apply to me blah blah blah" where he makes it clear he believes a corrupt president should be prosecuted for crimes in office.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:57 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:04 pm
If your kid says they want to go to a party, mid-COVID, and you it would be pretty unusual and not very good, have you taken a neutral position?
You're seriously saying that Biden speaking for public consumption in the middle of a national political campaign is analogous to a parent talking to his child?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:07 pm

mister d wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:11 pm
I'd love to go back because I don't remember anyone here thinking impeachment would work in the sense of leading to his removal, only that it was essential to setting precedent and getting those senators on record backing him.
In addition to those points, people here (and elsewhere) were insisting that the Dems had the power to rein in Trump's lawlessness by impeaching him.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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