2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Okay . . . let's try this again.

Moderators: Shirley, Sabo, brian, rass, DaveInSeattle

Joe K
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Joe K »

brian wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am
tennbengal wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:42 am Can I ask a question about Mayor Pete and "electability"...why are the centrists so sure that the first openly gay presidential candidate is any more acceptable and electable than Warren or Sanders? I don't see a lot of former or allegedly persuadable MAGA-types being cool with that, but perhaps I am too much of a cynic...
Yeah, ironically it's just as cynical for them to back a corporatist white man thinking it's going to bring "moderates" back into the fold when they're just going to reject him for being gay, even if he isn't a "socialist".
After 2016, I find it very hard to express certainty one way or another about the electability of anyone. Electability analyses also seem to often serve as proxies for someone’s own personal preferences rather than any type of rigorous evaluation.
User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 10742
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I love my former DLC colleagues. I've been to their weddings, held their babies, follow them on Facebook and Insta... Good people.

But I really disagree with their politics, because they morphed into being Establishment Dems and are very much OK with relying heavily on Wall Street and other (IMO) shitty special interests.

Guess who their favorite candidate is?

JOHNNIE, THIS IS PART OF THE BACKGROUND I'VE SHARED ON THIS SITE FOR A DECADE AND WHY I WAS SO ANNOYED WITH YOU THINKING I'M CANADIAN, FFS.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
User avatar
rass
The Dude
Posts: 20209
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:41 am
Location: N effin' J

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by rass »

I bet it was the avatar. Who else gives a shit about hockey?
I felt aswirl with warm secretions.
User avatar
Ryan
The Dude
Posts: 10439
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:01 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Ryan »

Nevadans
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

holy fuckbAllZ, what a ducking nightmare. Holy shot. Just, fuck. The
User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 23319
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by A_B »

Ryan wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:55 amNevadans
YEah, but they're BATTLE BORN.
You know what you need? A lyrical sucker punch to the face.
Johnnie
The Dude
Posts: 16732
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:31 pm
Location: TUCSON, BITCH!

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie »

I think I have always confused you, Travzilla, and Degenerasian. I know one of you 3 lived in Canada so I figured all 3 did. And as dumb as it sounds, yes, Rass is correct, the avatars didn't help that they were all hockey centric. If I've seen your faces via the Facebook group I didn't search for your real name/swamp handle and put 2 & 2 together.

I did this same thing with Sabo (Sabo), & HDO. They had similar avatars when I first started posting and I couldn't delineate the 2.
mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 23319
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by A_B »

Johnnie wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:15 pm I think I have always confused you, Travzilla, and Degenerasian. I know one of you 3 lived in Canada so I figured all 3 did. And as dumb as it sounds, yes, Rass is correct, the avatars didn't help that they were all hockey centric. If I've seen your faces via the Facebook group I didn't search for your real name/swamp handle and put 2 & 2 together.

I did this same thing with Sabo (Sabo), & HDO. They had similar avatars when I first started posting and I couldn't delineate the 2.
The best way to distinguish the two is to know that one is a grumpy old man and the other is HDO.
You know what you need? A lyrical sucker punch to the face.
Joe K
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Joe K »


I thought criticizing Democratic frontrunners should be avoided because it just helps Trump and Putin? Funny how the rules change once Warren looks like the favorite, instead of a neoliberal centrist.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

You shut the fuck up and support the party.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 10742
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

But who are you guys even talking to? brian or tb, I guess.

I can't stand that woman and wish she'd fuck off already.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 27740
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Downtown Las Vegas

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian »

If you read the story, it's a pretty fair criticism of the wealth tax both are proposing.

I have questions and qualms myself (I would rather we just reinstate the estate tax, significantly raise the top rate on millionaires, eliminate the loopholes that allow tax avoidance and increase enforcement and sentencing for tax cheats, which would probably accomplish most of the same goals).

So since you guys think Hillary is full of shit, how exactly DO you establish a net worth for the purposes of a "wealth tax"? Show your work.
Bandwagon fan of the 2023 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!
User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 10742
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Johnnie wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:15 pm I think I have always confused you, Travzilla, and Degenerasian. I know one of you 3 lived in Canada so I figured all 3 did. And as dumb as it sounds, yes, Rass is correct, the avatars didn't help that they were all hockey centric. If I've seen your faces via the Facebook group I didn't search for your real name/swamp handle and put 2 & 2 together.

I did this same thing with Sabo (Sabo), & HDO. They had similar avatars when I first started posting and I couldn't delineate the 2.
I think maybe you don't dip into the college football/basketball/hockey threads, where my MI affinity comes through a lot more.

It's all good, of course... There are much worse things to be accused of being than a Canadian.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
User avatar
sancarlos
The Dude
Posts: 18063
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:46 pm
Location: NorCal via Colorado

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by sancarlos »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:42 pm
Johnnie wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:15 pm I think I have always confused you, Travzilla, and Degenerasian. I know one of you 3 lived in Canada so I figured all 3 did. And as dumb as it sounds, yes, Rass is correct, the avatars didn't help that they were all hockey centric. If I've seen your faces via the Facebook group I didn't search for your real name/swamp handle and put 2 & 2 together.

I did this same thing with Sabo (Sabo), & HDO. They had similar avatars when I first started posting and I couldn't delineate the 2.
I think maybe you don't dip into the college football/basketball/hockey threads, where my MI affinity comes through a lot more.

It's all good, of course... There are much worse things to be accused of being than a Canadian.
This really bothers you, doesn't it? Maybe quit eating poutine and saying "eh" all the time?

When I met Johnnie, he thought I lived in Colorado (which was true 30+ years ago). Remember when we thought Johnnie was black? And, thought Citgo was white?
"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian
tennbengal
The Dude
Posts: 11975
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by tennbengal »

I wasn't a HRC supporter in the primaries last time around - I voted for Bernie. Her quote sucks.
User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 10742
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I fucking LOVE poutine.

Honestly, I've spent so much time up there (grandparents owned a cottage up north of MN... we'd drive through Int'l Falls to get there. My wife's family is filipino and they had a cottage up on Rice Lake, outside of Toronto. Shit, I even participated in the Arborough Games - Olympic Style competition between the cities of Peterborough, OT and Ann Arbor), I'm practically an honorary citizen.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 12302
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by degenerasian »

i have a tax idea that's never talked about. Why not a progressive property tax?

Why does income matter for income tax rates but property sizes not matter for property tax rates?

My dream city funding model would be a lot square footage tax, an income tax and a sales tax.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

Property taxes are progressive, atleast here.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Ryan
The Dude
Posts: 10439
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:01 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Ryan »

So you want a guy with 20 acres in the middle of nowhere to pay a progressive tax that a guy with a brownstone in the city would not?
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

holy fuckbAllZ, what a ducking nightmare. Holy shot. Just, fuck. The
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

Oh. They aren't dumb progressive, it values the land based on location, but land mass is included in the calc.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 12302
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by degenerasian »

Ryan wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:59 pm So you want a guy with 20 acres in the middle of nowhere to pay a progressive tax that a guy with a brownstone in the city would not?
The base tax rate in the middle of nowhere would definitely be less than in the city.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
User avatar
Ryan
The Dude
Posts: 10439
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:01 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Ryan »

Like, under a new system or now?
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

holy fuckbAllZ, what a ducking nightmare. Holy shot. Just, fuck. The
User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 12302
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by degenerasian »

Both, we have a flat residential and non residential property tax based on the assessment value.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
User avatar
GoodKarma
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1508
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:14 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by GoodKarma »

mister d wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am I've seen people comp him to Obama and the more I think about it, the less far off I think it is.
It's because he can string words & sentences together in a calm and intelligent manner to make it sound like he really knows what he's talking about.
I would like expensive whiskey.
We only have beer & wine...
What am I, 12?
User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 27740
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Downtown Las Vegas

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian »

I am here for Warren trolling Bill Gates and Leon Cooperman.

Bandwagon fan of the 2023 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!
User avatar
DSafetyGuy
The Dude
Posts: 8728
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:29 pm
Location: Behind the high school

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by DSafetyGuy »

BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:30 am
BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:05 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:52 am Congrats to Pete on accomplishing the important thing with his campaign: gaining enough notoriety that he'll never have to work a real job again. He's gonna build a mountain of cash with generic speaking engagements and other future campaigns that never amount to anything other than a place for lobbyists to send money. Well done, Mr. Nothing.
What about his path up to now gives you that impression?
The first major profile that came out made me feel that he's basically a blank slate, almost engineered to be the least offensive to both sides, who ended up falling on the Democratic side strictly due to his sexual orientation. He launched his campaign with virtually no substance, then when challenged on it, magically had policies appear on his website about a week later. He's jumped from being the mayor of a modest-sized city to the national stage while being basically structured from generic platitudes designed to upset people as little as possible. He's just kind of a walking "aw, shucks" who has turned into a cash draw without changing any substance.
OK, fair but a few thoughts:

1) First Major Profile doesn't give a lot of context. Who/what drove that?
Find link to Current Affairs profile here. Nonlinear posted it in this thread on April 2.
BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am2) The idea that Pete is a democrat because he is gay is narrow. Pete campaigned for Dems coming up, campaigned for State Treasurer as a Dem, worked on Obama's campaign, as well as his mayor...ship?
I probably explained that poorly, or at least incompletely. I feel like he is such a bland piece or paper, the most noteworthy trait of him led him to pick a side and he subsequently has acted accordingly, especially because going the other way simply would not have worked due to the nature of that particular trait. The fact that he is preaching centrist platitudes leads me to feel more that way because it seems like he can profess progressive policies, etc., but that he won't actually hold anyone on the other side to actually pass them because he values "we have to work together" when sometimes, the description of one side as "death cult" seems pretty close to on the mark.
BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am3) I disagree with the notion that his campaign has no substance, in fact I find it to be some of the most clearly laid out plans that anyone has put forth outside of Liz Warren. From what I've seen he's built clear and concise plans and ideas to move forward a (mostly) progressive agenda. I don't see how the timeframe his campaign rolled it out in as being relevant.

The guy is a Harvard grad who worked for a huge consulting firm in Chicago and walked away from that to be the mayor of his hometown. I think the narrative that he's now some cash grab speaking engagement guy is a terrible characterization of him based on little more than "oh look a white guy from the Midwest that's falling somewhere a little right of 'political revolution', he must be up to something".

Again, I'm not endorsing anyone here, but I feel like I know a little about Pete being from Indiana myself and I'm guessing the "first major profile" you read was some pretty lazy journalism. I've got qualms about every candidate as I think everyone should. You shouldn't line up 100% with anyone or you're not doing any actual analysis of your real thoughts and feelings. I'll support anyone trying to do the most good for the most people and I'll give priority to my preferred issues, but if you are all in on one candidate, you're not that much different from "I vote pro-life and that's the way it is" people.
I found it um, "interesting" that once he was chided for not having any real plans, the plans magically appeared on his website shortly after. I also find his "gee whiz, I'm just a small town guy" schtick to be insincere because he's the child of two Notre Dame educators and went to Harvard.

I think the fact that he worked for McKinsey speaks poorly to his character, but that's me. I, too, have worked for shitty people because I needed a job (and I will do so again, although they tend to be people/companies who are into amassing as much money and power as possible and treat people in the varying degrees of shittiness as they deem appropriate). As an Ohio native who has most of his family still residing in that state, I don't think I have any inherent biases against Midwestern folk except for small-minded one-issue voters who willfully choose to do things that are not in their own self-interest, mostly because concepts like "separation of church and state" elude them.

While I do have a preference among the competitors, I'm not married to any candidate, won't hold anyone up to any purity test, and am willing to hold my nose to vote for the "lesser of two evils" because I care about what is best for people, even if they want me to fuck off because I don't like our current president. I just care about those people less.

Let me know if you think that Current Affairs profile was lazy journalism or they have some inherent biases I would be well-served to know about.
“All I'm sayin' is, he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.”
User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 27740
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Downtown Las Vegas

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian »

Speaking of bland moderates, Michael Bloomberg has filed to run as a Democrat. The reaction at least in my corner of the Twittersphere is not lauditory.

Bandwagon fan of the 2023 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!
User avatar
Pruitt
The Dude
Posts: 18105
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:02 am
Location: North Shore of Lake Ontario

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Pruitt »

brian wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:55 pm Speaking of bland moderates, Michael Bloomberg has filed to run as a Democrat. The reaction at least in my corner of the Twittersphere is not lauditory.

Because what America needs is an election between two New Yorkers in their mid to late 70s.

Fuck off Bloomberg.
"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
Joe K
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Joe K »

You can see the panic among wealthy Dems about the fact that there’s probably at least a 50% shot Warren or Sanders wins the nomination. Even though Biden still leads the national polls, his trendline and performance to date is not promising. But I don’t see Bloomberg gaining much traction and his presence may help Warren and Sanders by sucking some votes from Biden and Buttigieg.

As long as Bloomberg only runs as a Democrat and not third-party. Because I fear he’d happily throw the race to Trump if in fact Warren or Sanders wins the primary.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

Can you imagine being a common voter in like PA or OH and voting for 3rd party Bloomberg because you don't want Trump but also don't want to see people like Bloomberg lose a percentage of wealth back to the country that helped them amass it?
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 27740
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Downtown Las Vegas

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by brian »

I’m at a loss to figure out why anyone could think someone having $100 billion of wealth isn’t completely obscene.
Bandwagon fan of the 2023 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!
User avatar
BSF21
The Dude
Posts: 5261
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by BSF21 »

DSafetyGuy wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:44 pm
BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:30 am
BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:05 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:52 am Congrats to Pete on accomplishing the important thing with his campaign: gaining enough notoriety that he'll never have to work a real job again. He's gonna build a mountain of cash with generic speaking engagements and other future campaigns that never amount to anything other than a place for lobbyists to send money. Well done, Mr. Nothing.
What about his path up to now gives you that impression?
The first major profile that came out made me feel that he's basically a blank slate, almost engineered to be the least offensive to both sides, who ended up falling on the Democratic side strictly due to his sexual orientation. He launched his campaign with virtually no substance, then when challenged on it, magically had policies appear on his website about a week later. He's jumped from being the mayor of a modest-sized city to the national stage while being basically structured from generic platitudes designed to upset people as little as possible. He's just kind of a walking "aw, shucks" who has turned into a cash draw without changing any substance.
OK, fair but a few thoughts:

1) First Major Profile doesn't give a lot of context. Who/what drove that?
Find link to Current Affairs profile here. Nonlinear posted it in this thread on April 2.
BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am2) The idea that Pete is a democrat because he is gay is narrow. Pete campaigned for Dems coming up, campaigned for State Treasurer as a Dem, worked on Obama's campaign, as well as his mayor...ship?
I probably explained that poorly, or at least incompletely. I feel like he is such a bland piece or paper, the most noteworthy trait of him led him to pick a side and he subsequently has acted accordingly, especially because going the other way simply would not have worked due to the nature of that particular trait. The fact that he is preaching centrist platitudes leads me to feel more that way because it seems like he can profess progressive policies, etc., but that he won't actually hold anyone on the other side to actually pass them because he values "we have to work together" when sometimes, the description of one side as "death cult" seems pretty close to on the mark.
BSF21 wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:48 am3) I disagree with the notion that his campaign has no substance, in fact I find it to be some of the most clearly laid out plans that anyone has put forth outside of Liz Warren. From what I've seen he's built clear and concise plans and ideas to move forward a (mostly) progressive agenda. I don't see how the timeframe his campaign rolled it out in as being relevant.

The guy is a Harvard grad who worked for a huge consulting firm in Chicago and walked away from that to be the mayor of his hometown. I think the narrative that he's now some cash grab speaking engagement guy is a terrible characterization of him based on little more than "oh look a white guy from the Midwest that's falling somewhere a little right of 'political revolution', he must be up to something".

Again, I'm not endorsing anyone here, but I feel like I know a little about Pete being from Indiana myself and I'm guessing the "first major profile" you read was some pretty lazy journalism. I've got qualms about every candidate as I think everyone should. You shouldn't line up 100% with anyone or you're not doing any actual analysis of your real thoughts and feelings. I'll support anyone trying to do the most good for the most people and I'll give priority to my preferred issues, but if you are all in on one candidate, you're not that much different from "I vote pro-life and that's the way it is" people.
I found it um, "interesting" that once he was chided for not having any real plans, the plans magically appeared on his website shortly after. I also find his "gee whiz, I'm just a small town guy" schtick to be insincere because he's the child of two Notre Dame educators and went to Harvard.

I think the fact that he worked for McKinsey speaks poorly to his character, but that's me. I, too, have worked for shitty people because I needed a job (and I will do so again, although they tend to be people/companies who are into amassing as much money and power as possible and treat people in the varying degrees of shittiness as they deem appropriate). As an Ohio native who has most of his family still residing in that state, I don't think I have any inherent biases against Midwestern folk except for small-minded one-issue voters who willfully choose to do things that are not in their own self-interest, mostly because concepts like "separation of church and state" elude them.

While I do have a preference among the competitors, I'm not married to any candidate, won't hold anyone up to any purity test, and am willing to hold my nose to vote for the "lesser of two evils" because I care about what is best for people, even if they want me to fuck off because I don't like our current president. I just care about those people less.

Let me know if you think that Current Affairs profile was lazy journalism or they have some inherent biases I would be well-served to know about.
That Current Affairs profile was certainly a ride. I'll admit to reading half and skimming half. I never have understood how one person can devote that many words to picking apart another person but the author certainly made some good points. It's the journalistic equivalent of leading the witness for most of what I read, making sure he lays out to you exactly what is wrong with these actions instead of laying them out and letting the reader draw their conclusions, but that's what a hit piece is, I guess. I can certainly understand his and your position of the lack of credibility you think Pete has and how he's using the folksy thing to his advantage. It certainly made me think of some of his positions in a new light.

That said, my main issue with most of the points made here is that these writers must live in some high ivory towers. Spending 3 paragraphs tearing apart the fact that Pete didn't stop to join a protest about giving the Harvard workers a minimum wage raise for example. I know Pete is young and there's only so much to draw off of, but I really don't get the "that 19 year old kid should have understood systemic poverty and racism that was going on all around him!" narrative. I didn't know shit at 19 other that the world was about me, my stuff, my path, and getting laid. To hold anyone to some higher standard because his parents worked at a university is sorta low ball I'd say. I wonder what kind of justice advocacy Nathan Robinson was doing when he was fresh faced at college (a PhD student at...Harvard!). Maybe he was one of the people who woke up early.

The nitpicking of doing this instead of that or that way instead of my way bothers me. I think there's value in doing the most good for the most people. Utilitarianism isn't perfect but it's a pragmatic way to approach governance. You're from Ohio so I'm guessing you understand this but let me paint anyone else reading my drivel a picture. South Bend Indiana is an absolute shit-hole town. Like a lot of other mid-sized midwestern towns, but this one happens to have the most prolific Catholic university in the country. The "town and gown" thing is real. ND might as well be a walled city inside South Bend. So as I understand it Pete takes an approach to fix some problems and reinvigorate the town. Gentrification or not, at the end of the day, people have to live in your city in order to generate tax dollars to fix problems in your city. So he does the 1000 homes in 1000 days plan (this has also been a hallmark of the most recent mayor of Indianapolis and had some moderate success). As an aside, broken window theory is real and what most of the gentrification narrative fails to touch on. Street lights and clean buildings decrease crime and make areas more desirable. And obviously there are no perfect systems and some of the people rolled up in this problem are simply low income families that are having a tough time maintaining their property (which he addresses in his book but wasn't relevant to the narrative of the article I guess), but by and large this is cracking down on real estate firms buying up property to force other residents out, etc. It's actually something I've noticed driving through South Bend 8 or so times per year over the last 8 years. The homes thing didn't fix homelessness or poverty, but someone took a step. This is the same logic we scream at about gun control in this country a progressives, "I don't even care if you ban X, Y, Z but for fucks sake do SOMETHING so I can leave my house without fear of getting mowed down in a Target". I dislike the takedowns from on high that "he didn't think about X group or Y thing", unfortunately that's governance. You fix something and hope it mitigates other things and if it doesn't then you move on to the next thing to fix those issues.

That's just one point, but the overarching message I hate about these pieces and about our national dialogue is what I laid out beforehand. If it's not MY guy doing it HIS way then it's WRONG. I think Pete has had some good ideas, I think he's intelligent, and most of all he hasn't been in Washington making friends and enemies for 35 years. That's a double edged sword and noted, but Democrats and Progressives have got to get on the same page about some things. Maybe Pete gets the nom, maybe he's the next president. Anything is better than here and we're seeing it nation wide that if you're not a propaganda chode, a change needs to be made. I just dislike the narrative that if it's not the most progressive pendulum swing at the highest office in the land we have failed. If this is the case, let Pete be a big figurehead. Let "neoliberals" (that's a lazy fucking word, btw) think they've got it bagged and continue to groundswell progressive candidates in the house, senate, local governments and statehouses. Maybe some good work gets done in the next few years and you see where it's gotten us.

I hope I didn't come across like I thought you were married to a candidate or needed a purity test as an individual, it was not. It's more the umbrella that so many people seem to fall under who support...the 2 the come to mind are Bernie and Yang. Those guys have some great ideas too but I'm not going to stay home because the eventual candidate isn't my favorite team. Thanks for the discussion, it was kinda cathartic just tying things out for a bit.
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

BSF21 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:34 amThat said, my main issue with most of the points made here is that these writers must live in some high ivory towers. Spending 3 paragraphs tearing apart the fact that Pete didn't stop to join a protest about giving the Harvard workers a minimum wage raise for example. I know Pete is young and there's only so much to draw off of, but I really don't get the "that 19 year old kid should have understood systemic poverty and racism that was going on all around him!" narrative. I didn't know shit at 19 other that the world was about me, my stuff, my path, and getting laid. To hold anyone to some higher standard because his parents worked at a university is sorta low ball I'd say. I wonder what kind of justice advocacy Nathan Robinson was doing when he was fresh faced at college (a PhD student at...Harvard!). Maybe he was one of the people who woke up early.
But it speaks to the main critique of Buttegieg; that he's a blank slate who knows how effectively repeat back what you want to hear(1) if it benefits him. And to the 19 year old (or 20-something consultant) critiques, no one is convicting him for them, but its absolutely fair to question if a 37 year old who just recently found his moral compass is the right person to lead the entire fucking free world. So much of this is defensive and working backwards; if someone declares for president, they should be given the benefit of the doubt and their past shouldn't be held against them (Biden, Harris). Only a psychopath would actually want this role, so every single real candidate should be vetted at the most extreme possible levels, even if that means an unflowery profile.

(1)
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
DSafetyGuy
The Dude
Posts: 8728
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:29 pm
Location: Behind the high school

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by DSafetyGuy »

No worries, BSF. I just wanted to give a little more depth to where I am coming from (not married to a candidate, etc.) because I don't think I've ever mentioned my personal opinions on politics aside from snide commentary about the current state of affairs and taking potshots at people on both sides (although it should be apparent which side I fall on).

Your Notre Dame comparison relates very well to my experience at Syracuse. The university is essentially completely separate from the city, yet located next to one of the worst neighborhoods in the city (you had to show ID to enter either of two dorms on that side of campus and a resident had to sign you in if you were a guest when I was a student - I cannot imagine that policy has changed since). The university puts down the drawbridge to take your money for sporting events, then is more than happy to watch you leave after.
“All I'm sayin' is, he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.”
User avatar
DSafetyGuy
The Dude
Posts: 8728
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:29 pm
Location: Behind the high school

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by DSafetyGuy »

mister d wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:47 amBut it speaks to the main critique of Buttegieg; that he's a blank slate who knows how effectively repeat back what you want to hear(1) if it benefits him. And to the 19 year old (or 20-something consultant) critiques, no one is convicting him for them, but its absolutely fair to question if a 37 year old who just recently found his moral compass is the right person to lead the entire fucking free world. So much of this is defensive and working backwards; if someone declares for president, they should be given the benefit of the doubt and their past shouldn't be held against them (Biden, Harris). Only a psychopath would actually want this role, so every single real candidate should be vetted at the most extreme possible levels, even if that means an unflowery profile.

(1)
Yeah, "Gosh!" really irritates me. He presents himself as a rube with the folksy, yet completely unnecessary, word choice.

And that tweet feels to me like you could replace "all Americans covered" with "me elected".

I am admittedly very cynical.

(I edited/added to the first sentence to better explain "rube".)
“All I'm sayin' is, he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.”
User avatar
BSF21
The Dude
Posts: 5261
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by BSF21 »

mister d wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:47 am
BSF21 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:34 amThat said, my main issue with most of the points made here is that these writers must live in some high ivory towers. Spending 3 paragraphs tearing apart the fact that Pete didn't stop to join a protest about giving the Harvard workers a minimum wage raise for example. I know Pete is young and there's only so much to draw off of, but I really don't get the "that 19 year old kid should have understood systemic poverty and racism that was going on all around him!" narrative. I didn't know shit at 19 other that the world was about me, my stuff, my path, and getting laid. To hold anyone to some higher standard because his parents worked at a university is sorta low ball I'd say. I wonder what kind of justice advocacy Nathan Robinson was doing when he was fresh faced at college (a PhD student at...Harvard!). Maybe he was one of the people who woke up early.
But it speaks to the main critique of Buttegieg; that he's a blank slate who knows how effectively repeat back what you want to hear(1) if it benefits him. And to the 19 year old (or 20-something consultant) critiques, no one is convicting him for them, but its absolutely fair to question if a 37 year old who just recently found his moral compass is the right person to lead the entire fucking free world. So much of this is defensive and working backwards; if someone declares for president, they should be given the benefit of the doubt and their past shouldn't be held against them (Biden, Harris). Only a psychopath would actually want this role, so every single real candidate should be vetted at the most extreme possible levels, even if that means an unflowery profile.

(1)
That's fair. I don't really get the tweet there but I get what you're driving at. And I'm very much of the opinion that you should hold a career politician's past against them (Biden, Harris). It's central to their ethos.
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

Less than 2 years ago, Pete cutely responded to perceived wavering over his M4A stance citing unambiguous, historical support. He's currently wavering. It gets to the core of him and so many other politicians; their positions are at worst up for sale and at best not core beliefs, but rather crowdsourced current opinions.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 23319
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by A_B »

To me this is disqualifying

You know what you need? A lyrical sucker punch to the face.
User avatar
sancarlos
The Dude
Posts: 18063
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:46 pm
Location: NorCal via Colorado

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by sancarlos »

Offensive to the easily offended.
"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian
Johnnie
The Dude
Posts: 16732
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:31 pm
Location: TUCSON, BITCH!

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie »

Ok, Bloomberg. Here's what you can do.

mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
Johnnie
The Dude
Posts: 16732
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:31 pm
Location: TUCSON, BITCH!

Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie »

Fucking really? Establishment Democrats are desperate, aren't they?

mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
Post Reply