2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

[brian]

Weren’t the fake Bernie/Dem accounts mostly to damage Hillary? (Understanding that benefitting the right is a parallel goal)

But that was only really feasible in a two-person race. I just really don’t have the interest in dealing with this shit again. It could totally change as the primaries get closer but I only really see two Dem candidates supporters at this point setting up circular firing squads and that’s Bernie and Tulsi Gabbard. I’m just one person and only consume X amount of social media though. Some of you might be seeing less and some might be seeing more. All I can say is I’m not playing that game online this time around and I wish everyone else would do the same.

[mister d]

Maybe I'm not following what you're saying, but it seems like you're cautioning about reading anything online after this all started with you complaining about Sanders supporters online. The whole point of the bots is to shape perception of the candidate outside of their control by creating a prototype "supporter", be it positive or negative.

[Joe K]

Weren’t the fake Bernie/Dem accounts mostly to damage Hillary? (Understanding that benefitting the right is a parallel goal)

But that was only really feasible in a two-person race. I just really don’t have the interest in dealing with this shit again. It could totally change as the primaries get closer but I only really see two Dem candidates supporters at this point setting up circular firing squads and that’s Bernie and Tulsi Gabbard. I’m just one person and only consume X amount of social media though. Some of you might be seeing less and some might be seeing more. All I can say is I’m not playing that game online this time around and I wish everyone else would do the same.

Tim Ryan and Kamala Harris have sold official campaign merchandise touting lines they used in the debates against Sanders and Biden.

[brian]

Maybe I'm not following what you're saying, but it seems like you're cautioning about reading anything online after this all started with you complaining about Sanders supporters online. The whole point of the bots is to shape perception of the candidate outside of their control by creating a prototype "supporter", be it positive or negative.

Again, maybe? I don't think for the most part I'm seeing bots though -- I know these are real people sharing fake/goofy stuff.

I'm not saying that shady shit isn't happening, I'm saying that regardless of that, the online people that I'm seeing on Twitter and Facebook that I know for a fact are real people and not bots who are sharing what I would consider to be completely fake or slanderous stuff (because I follow them and have seen months worth of posts or because they're verified or because for right or wrong I just feel extremely confident that it's not a bot) are disproportionally pro-Bernie. Maybe they're all bots and I'm just a mark but I honestly don't think so.

[Johnnie]

Brian : "Bernie Bros" :: Pats fans : Deflategate.

[brian]

If you mean a fairly decent sized vocal contingent of both Bernie supporters and Pats fans are conspiracy theory touting loons, then the analogy works.

ETA: for clarity/fairness

[brian]

Ultimately (to me) it doesn't matter. I'll support Bernie wholeheartedly if it comes to it and I'm not gonna dog him online before it comes to that. Fin.

[brian]

Back to actual policy stuff, this is pretty interesting though I'm certain these Wall Street pukes would say the same thing about Bernie. In any event, some great free advertising for her.

[brian]

This is another "Sanders v. Warren" piece that is fair to both.

I probably couldn't sum it up with a TL; DR version either, though it re-states JoeK's argument that the next Dem president will largely only have a serious impact on foreign policy because of the realities of the two-party system, an argument which favors Sanders (narrowly), but that Warren will likely have a better chance of influencing moderate Dems to move left on big, important domestic legislation in the future compared to Bernie (narrowly).

[Joe K]

To me, the big “party unity” question for the 2020 general election was never about whether progressive voters will support a centrist candidate; we already know from 2016 that they will. It’s whether the Democratic donor class will try to actively sabotage a progressive nominee like Warren or Sanders. Put differently, we should be a lot more concerned about Bloomberg Bros than Bernie Bros.

[mister d]

To me, the big “party unity” question for the 2020 general election was never about whether progressive voters will support a centrist candidate; we already know from 2016 that they will.

I'm not sure that'll carry over from last election to this one and I'm closer to sure it won't if the centrist is a white male. Hillary had the first female president thing going for her.

[Joe K]

To me, the big “party unity” question for the 2020 general election was never about whether progressive voters will support a centrist candidate; we already know from 2016 that they will.

I'm not sure that'll carry over from last election to this one and I'm closer to sure it won't if the centrist is a white male. Hillary had the first female president thing going for her.

As bad as he’s looked on the campaign trail, I’d bet that Biden would get at least 90% of Warren/Sanders primary voters in a general election against Trump. It’s hard to overstate how much politically engaged progressives abhor Trump.

[mister d]

They also abhor Biden.

[degenerasian]

Yeah I think they would still stay home.

[A_B]

I know a guy who went third party in 2016 mostly because he wouldn't dare cast a vote for Trump but didn't like Hilary, either. He's in a state where it didn't matter at all in 2016, but is 100% in on whoever the Democratic candidate is this time around.

[brian]

I know a guy who went third party in 2016 mostly because he wouldn't dare cast a vote for Trump but didn't like Hilary, either. He's in a state where it didn't matter at all in 2016, but is 100% in on whoever the Democratic candidate is this time around.

I suspect there's a great many of these people. I know a couple myself (or they lied about voting third-party and voted for Trump but they won't be voting for him again regardless).

[brian]

FUCK YES!

[Johnnie]

Gotta love this filth on MSNBC.





(Looking at the replies, I see Brian in there.)

[Johnnie]

Pete Buttigieg says he would not pardon President Donald Trump

This better be a topic at the next fucking debate.

Any candidate that answers "Yes, I would pardon him" needs to be removed from the stage via a drop door like Veruca in Willy Wonka.

[brian]

Warren is proposing an almost similar wealth tax so I think it’s just stupidity, not avarice leading her to that take.

[Joe K]

Warren is proposing an almost similar wealth tax so I think it’s just stupidity, not avarice leading her to that take.

The investment company her father founded was also the single biggest donor to the Clinton campaign back in 2016. But of course MSNBC would never present that minor detail before giving her free reign to bash Sanders’ supporters. But that’s because being “divisive” only seems to be a problem when it’s done by Sanders’ supporters and not by his critics.

Also, you just know that ultra-wealthy Dems boosting Warren are only doing it to try to crowd Sanders out of the race. They’ll turn on Warren in a second if she’s the most progressive candidate. We’re already seeing the beginnings of that with the recent whining from Wall Street.

[mister d]

Yup, and if it works I really don’t want to hear people complain about lack of turnout from the young left.

[EnochRoot]

Yup, and if it works I really don’t want to hear people complain about lack of turnout from the young left.

Really? Fart sniffing purity tests really should be discouraged, particularly when it's the youth using it as an excuse because their 400 year old candidate is out of the race.

[Johnnie]

[mister d]

Really? Fart sniffing purity tests really should be discouraged, particularly when it's the youth using it as an excuse because their 400 year old candidate is out of the race.

If you’re talking Sanders’s or even Warren’s policies versus Biden’s, it’s anything but a purity test. It’s tangible losses to a massive class of people who will get scolded for not supporting those who caused the losses. I have no problem believing Hillary was on top of the party in 2016; that’s no longer going to be the case in 2020 unless the establishment forces it.

[EnochRoot]

Really? Fart sniffing purity tests really should be discouraged, particularly when it's the youth using it as an excuse because their 400 year old candidate is out of the race.

If you’re talking Sanders’s or even Warren’s policies versus Biden’s, it’s anything but a purity test. It’s tangible losses to a massive class of people who will get scolded for not supporting those who caused the losses. I have no problem believing Hillary was on top of the party in 2016; that’s no longer going to be the case in 2020 unless the establishment forces it.

So you're basically saying if Biden wins and the youth stay home, then it's not the youth's fault for not voting?

What happens when Warren gets the nomination, and all the #CultofBernie fucks the hell off and votes 3rd party or not at all? Do they get a pass too?

Or when Sanders gets the nomination and all of Warrens supporters decide to sit it out?

Part of growing up is recognizing the best option in a bad situation. If you think sitting it out shows maturity, then um...OK?

I'll vote Warren in the primaries, and I'll sure as fuck vote whatever D wins. And while I won't look for ghosts in the machine, I will recognize the election isn't going to be won on the coasts.

[mister d]

So you're basically saying if Biden wins and the youth stay home, then it's not the youth's fault for not voting?

Correct. If the establishment exerts their will and forces Biden through as part of some “centrist over socialists” calculus, the socialists and “socialists” have no obligation to validate that decision.

[Johnnie]

Why the hell are you so sure that it's going to be some Bernie/Warren civil war among followers? Or is that some lame example?

Also, pretty pathetic to decide that young voters need to "do what they're told." Millennials (who are now in their mid 30s like me) and Gen Y are fucking sick of know it all establishment bootlickers holding them to do or die proclamations and then getting blamed because we had the gaul to stand up to people like them.

Such an inviting party full of diversity!

[degenerasian]

Change Millenials to Blacks and Latinos and it's the same thing. They got blamed for low turnout in 2016 as well.

[Joe K]

Change Millenials to Blacks and Latinos and it's the same thing. They got blamed for low turn out in 2016 as well.

To follow up on this post and Johnnie’s, the Democratic Party just cannot assume that it is entitled to any group’s votes without giving them a reason to turnout. One of the most interesting 2016 postmortem pieces was a NYT article where the reporter went into inner city areas of Milwaukee and asked a bunch of black non-voters if they regretted not voting given Trump’s unexpected win. And the overwhelming answer was that no, they did not, because they didn’t think the struggles they faced on a day-to-day basis were addressed by either party.

Here’s a link to the article and a revealing excerpt.

All four barbers had voted for Mr. Obama. But only two could muster the enthusiasm to vote this time. And even then, it was a sort of protest. One wrote in Mrs. Clinton’s Democratic opponent, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. The other wrote in himself.

“I’m so numb,” said Jahn Toney, 45, who had written in Mr. Sanders. He said no president in his lifetime had done anything to improve the lives of black people, including Mr. Obama, whom he voted for twice. “It’s like I should have known this would happen. We’re worse off than before.”

The Dems could just call voters like Mr. Toney “Bernie Bros,” but the better strategy would be to give those voters reason to believe you’ll improve their lives.

[EnochRoot]

To me, the big “party unity” question for the 2020 general election was never about whether progressive voters will support a centrist candidate; we already know from 2016 that they will.

I'm not sure that'll carry over from last election to this one and I'm closer to sure it won't if the centrist is a white male. Hillary had the first female president thing going for her.

As bad as he’s looked on the campaign trail, I’d bet that Biden would get at least 90% of Warren/Sanders primary voters in a general election against Trump. It’s hard to overstate how much politically engaged progressives abhor Trump.

They also abhor Biden.

This is what I’m talking about. Whether or not your college-educated ass gets what he wants out of a candidate is one thing, but it’s quite another to sit out the ‘20 election and risk another four years of Trump.

[mister d]

I’ve already said I’d personally suck it up and vote Biden, but I’m not going to begrudge someone who refuses if they see a candidate who could materially change their existence get pushed down because of Dem special interests.

[mister d]

(And I reserve the right to sit out more than I reserve the right to go back on that non-chastise promise. Especially post mid-terms, 2020 is a chance for massive positive change against a should-be walkover candidate. Any choice to slow play or push incremental change should be harshly countered.)

[Johnnie]

Here's the thing, Enoch.

Millennials, the smart portion of Gen X, and now Gen Z have been under the thumb of asshole Boomers and the asshole portion of Gen X for so long that when entitled liberals say shit like what you're saying we say "Fuck you" en masse because what do we have to lose if we don't?

Seriously.

Our collective futures are shit. The majority have to work until they're 70 paying back student debt, can never retire, can barely afford to buy property, and are delaying starting a family. So what's the difference what WASPy shitstain is in power? My life doesn't immediately get better overnight because a nicer, palatable white man becomes president. But it gives the warm fuzzies to liberals so it must be great!

And you're gonna hold what over my head? Shame? Fuck you.

By this time 2 years from now I'll be fully retired from the Air Force never having had agency in anything but in receiving blame all the time for all things. Why? Because I work for a 60 year old vet who retired in 2006 and was hired back as a GS civilian who will absolutely never let go of the fact the Air Force didn't stop in 2006 when his career did. Every day it's anxiety and worry that I'm not stacking up to lead the younger folks below me while also threading the needle of pleasing his "stuck in the past" ass.

It's bullshit. And I'm sure this anxiety feeling I get every day is worse for others in a worse position than me. I'm lucky that I'll have my mortgage paid until I die, Tricare, and no student debt.

So, sorry not fucking sorry I don't immediately fall in line with liberals who KNOW BETTER THAN ME since I'm nothing more than this agency-less infantilization generation who JUST DOESN'T GET IT.

Stick your righteousness up your ass.

[brian]

That argument is not unfair but incremental progress is better than no or negative process. Also you’re a white man and you have the luxury of opting out but women, minorities and non-natives are taking the brunt of this administration’s misdeeds.

[degenerasian]

I'm starting to think the military is no different than the catholic church.

[Johnnie]

That argument is not unfair but incremental progress is better than no or negative process. Also you’re a white man and you have the luxury of opting out but women, minorities and non-natives are taking the brunt of this administration’s misdeeds.

Which is why I'll do my duty and vote for them because I have a sister, a mom, a niece on the way, and two goddaughters (one of which is mixed race).

All I want are for people like Enoch to shut the fuck up and act like I know better instead of thinking I don't. And take heed at the fact that there are lots of people out there that simply cannot tolerate his and people like his bullshit when it comes to knowing better.

I'm starting to think the military is no different than the catholic church.

There definitely is a white Christian male streak that adores obedience and authoritarianistic rule not unlike church.

[EnochRoot]

That argument is not unfair but incremental progress is better than no or negative process. Also you’re a white man and you have the luxury of opting out but women, minorities and non-natives are taking the brunt of this administration’s misdeeds.

Which is why I'll do my duty and vote for them because I have a sister, a mom, a niece on the way, and two goddaughters (one of which is mixed race).

All I want are for people like Enoch to shut the fuck up and act like I know better instead of thinking I don't. And take heed at the fact that there are lots of people out there that simply cannot tolerate his and people like his bullshit when it comes to knowing better.

Get over yourself with this nonsensical larger point you’re trying to pin on me. All I’m saying is the younger generation needs to see the children in cages. The *fucking* white resentment going on in the free world. You know, the shit being shoved into Western Democracies by Putin. Larger picture. You know, the 800 lb elephant you glibly pointed out while ignoring the other thousand or so words I’d shared from TPM the other day.

And what’s with this crap like yours is the only generation that feels it. Like yours is the only woke one. H/T for going back in time to get that Civil Rights legislation passed. And while I have compassion for people facing ridiculous tuition costs, it only goes so far. There are land grant universities all over the country that will take you or yours in for a fraction of those tuitions your generation jumped into committing to paying. “I went to an expensive college and I’ll be paying it off for the rest of my life.” Like life was explained to you that your only option was to go to a school that costs $70k a year? That’s horse shit, and frankly doesn’t speak well for your generation (or the one coming up behind it).

[Johnnie]

Well, looks like that's a no.

[A_B]

I have an 18 year old. They are all in on not trump. Can’t speak for the 20-30 somethings.