2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Joe K »

On the flip side, I think the coaches from the 2013-19 cohort would coach circles around the guys from the earlier days, including the 1979-84 cohort that has Knight, Smith and Thompson. Roy Williams would only be my 5th choice for the 2013-19 group and he’s won more titles at Carolina than Dean Smith.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Shirley »

Yeah, I can see both sides. Even given the importance of that call, and as a Virginia fan, I would have had no problem giving that ball to Texas Tech ... except for the fact that they reviewed it. Once you review it, you have to be accurate. And like Nonlinear said, when the defensive player clearly is swatting at the ball and it goes out of bounds, it almost automatically goes to the other team unless it takes a clear bounce off of someone on the way out. (There was a similar play on a rebound earlier in the game where Mooney slapped the ball out of Hunter's hands and they gave the ball to TT for some reason, but no review at that point in the game.)
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Giff »

I love my all of the sudden basketball expert friends on Facebook lamenting that UVA shouldn't even be there because of the "obvious" double dribble call in the semifinals. Um, not obvious at all.
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Nonlinear FC
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Giff wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:05 am I love my all of the sudden basketball expert friends on Facebook lamenting that UVA shouldn't even be there because of the "obvious" double dribble call in the semifinals. Um, not obvious at all.
I would love for people saying that to have been on camera watching the game. I'd like to see the percentage of them that jumped out of their chair, in the moment, shouting DOUBLE DRIBBLE.

I fancy myself fairly knowledgeable and attentive watching a game. I sure didn't pick it up in real time. The VAST MAJORITY of people watching that game didn't know it was an issue until CBS showed replays well after the fact. We anticipating a foul and/or it felt like it hit off an Auburn player, because 9/10 when you dribble of your own foot it careens 10-15 feet in any given direction. It was a weird play.

Not saying they got it right blah blah blah...
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by brian »

For the record, the replay review didn't swing the game even if it was a huge call, but there's something especially galling about watching a great game like that be decided over the most ridiculous of calls where the defender swats the ball out of the offensive player's hand but it grazes a fucking pinky on the way out of bounds. I'm not sure that play gets reviewed in a regular season game 9 times out of 10 (even in the same situation I'm saying).

I guess there's an overarching discussion we need to have about the role of review in all sports and the tendency to sometimes make the games unwatchable at times. It's certainly not just basketball. All four major sports have similar issues w/r/t replay and it's definitely causing some fans to tune out.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by L-Jam3 »

I understand the argument completely that if we have the technology, sports should use instant replay to get the calls right, and slowing it down to get it right should be used in the replay analysis.

Having said that, I've heard arguments that replay officials should watch the angles, but only at game speed, under the guise that the clear evidence to overturn should be clear to an official watching it as it happens. The uncalled double dribble (I too missed it in real time) and the fingertip play are two plays that illustrate that second point.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by L-Jam3 »

I guess to illustrate my point would be the Calvin Johnson TD/Spike. Watching that live, I saw a great play by a great player, which was great theater. The TD was disallowed due to the review looking at that play with extreme slow-mo showed Megatron "lost control" of the ball on his way down (because he was fucking spiking it), and ultimately reversed to a dropped incomplete pass. The question to ask is what is ultimately the better result, a correct call by examining the tape down to milliseconds, or watching Megatron beat the Bears coverage for the last-minute touchdown? At least for that play, for me, a neutral observer on that game, I'm picking the latter.
Last edited by L-Jam3 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by A_B »

brian wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:24 am For the record, the replay review didn't swing the game even if it was a huge call, but there's something especially galling about watching a great game like that be decided over the most ridiculous of calls where the defender swats the ball out of the offensive player's hand but it grazes a fucking pinky on the way out of bounds. I'm not sure that play gets reviewed in a regular season game 9 times out of 10 (even in the same situation I'm saying).

I guess there's an overarching discussion we need to have about the role of review in all sports and the tendency to sometimes make the games unwatchable at times. It's certainly not just basketball. All four major sports have similar issues w/r/t replay and it's definitely causing some fans to tune out.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by A_B »

L-Jam3 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:29 am I understand the argument completely that if we have the technology, sports should use instant replay to get the calls right, and slowing it down to get it right should be used in the replay analysis.

Having said that, I've heard arguments that replay officials should watch the angles, but only at game speed, under the guise that the clear evidence to overturn should be clear to an official watching it as it happens. The uncalled double dribble (I too missed it in real time) and the fingertip play are two plays that illustrate that second point.
I don't mind slowing it down, but I think there should be a drop dead 30-45 second review period. If you didn't figure it out in that time, it probably isn't conclusive.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Rush2112 »

brian wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:24 am I guess there's an overarching discussion we need to have about the role of review in all sports and the tendency to sometimes make the games unwatchable at times. It's certainly not just basketball. All four major sports have similar issues w/r/t replay and it's definitely causing some fans to tune out.
I really think it needs be drawn back to something closer to real-time rather than gone over like the Zapruder film.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Ryan »

While I do get frustrated when it takes 3 minutes to review something that everyone in the room saw correctly on the first replay, it's 1000x more important to me, as a fan, that the call is correct than if it slows down the game that I have a 0.1% chance of watching anyway.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I really like the idea of a "call clock" or "make a fist clock"... I think that's really what the vast majority of fans are saying... If the call is that difficult, that you need 45 different replays and angles run, than it should be very obvious that the real-time call was tough enough that you can't overturn it.

That's where this has gone off the rails. A fucking pinky-tip where the ball doesn't change direction after all that time was ridiculous.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by HaulCitgo »

Good thing nfl won't have this problem next year. Can you imagine trying to resolve a holding call with slo mo scrutiny.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by HaulCitgo »

Congrats Dave. Well deserved. Does say a lot about the program to bounce back with a title.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by DaveInSeattle »

Congrats to Dave (and the other UVA people I've known over the years). Well deserved, and it was cool to see Tony Bennett win it, after what had to have been the worst loss in tourney history last year.

Just remember...the years you've lost because of the last 3 games come from the BAD part of life, and will be totally worth it!
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Brontoburglar »

A_B wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 am
L-Jam3 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:29 am I understand the argument completely that if we have the technology, sports should use instant replay to get the calls right, and slowing it down to get it right should be used in the replay analysis.

Having said that, I've heard arguments that replay officials should watch the angles, but only at game speed, under the guise that the clear evidence to overturn should be clear to an official watching it as it happens. The uncalled double dribble (I too missed it in real time) and the fingertip play are two plays that illustrate that second point.
I don't mind slowing it down, but I think there should be a drop dead 30-45 second review period. If you didn't figure it out in that time, it probably isn't conclusive.
zapruder filming replays really feels like the intent of replay review gets lost

I understand the "get the call correct!" aspect of it completely -- but at the same time, there were three or four more egregious instances of out of bounds possession in the game that couldn't be reviewed because they didn't happen inside the final two minutes

also, Moretti got fouled
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by mister d »

Its the player bouncing over the base on a slide deal. Technically right but completely against the spirit and intention of the rule.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by brian »

mister d wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:47 pm Its the player bouncing over the base on a slide deal. Technically right but completely against the spirit and intention of the rule.
I was going to use that example. Also, goalie interference on about 25 percent (at least) of those calls that get overturned.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by degenerasian »

and handball in soccer.

slow motion replay totally takes away the speed of the ball hitting the player's hand which is the biggest factor.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Shirley »

Brontoburglar wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:31 pm
A_B wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 am
L-Jam3 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:29 am I understand the argument completely that if we have the technology, sports should use instant replay to get the calls right, and slowing it down to get it right should be used in the replay analysis.

Having said that, I've heard arguments that replay officials should watch the angles, but only at game speed, under the guise that the clear evidence to overturn should be clear to an official watching it as it happens. The uncalled double dribble (I too missed it in real time) and the fingertip play are two plays that illustrate that second point.
I don't mind slowing it down, but I think there should be a drop dead 30-45 second review period. If you didn't figure it out in that time, it probably isn't conclusive.
zapruder filming replays really feels like the intent of replay review gets lost

I understand the "get the call correct!" aspect of it completely -- but at the same time, there were three or four more egregious instances of out of bounds possession in the game that couldn't be reviewed because they didn't happen inside the final two minutes

also, Moretti got fouled
Before or after he walked? (Nobody talked about that aspect of the play - he was on his third step when Hunter poked it away.)
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Brontoburglar »

Shirley wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:54 pm
Brontoburglar wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:31 pm
A_B wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 am
L-Jam3 wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:29 am I understand the argument completely that if we have the technology, sports should use instant replay to get the calls right, and slowing it down to get it right should be used in the replay analysis.

Having said that, I've heard arguments that replay officials should watch the angles, but only at game speed, under the guise that the clear evidence to overturn should be clear to an official watching it as it happens. The uncalled double dribble (I too missed it in real time) and the fingertip play are two plays that illustrate that second point.
I don't mind slowing it down, but I think there should be a drop dead 30-45 second review period. If you didn't figure it out in that time, it probably isn't conclusive.
zapruder filming replays really feels like the intent of replay review gets lost

I understand the "get the call correct!" aspect of it completely -- but at the same time, there were three or four more egregious instances of out of bounds possession in the game that couldn't be reviewed because they didn't happen inside the final two minutes

also, Moretti got fouled
Before or after he walked? (Nobody talked about that aspect of the play - he was on his third step when Hunter poked it away.)
the foul that caused the (non) travel

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I knew this was coming, because Brian Cook at MGo have been fired up about these out of bounds calls late in games for awhile.

https://mgoblog.com/content/replay-lies
The solution here is to accept that sometimes the more you look, the less you really know and either eliminate replay for these sorts of things or put a hard cap on the amount of time that refs have to review. It can be 30 seconds. Buffalo Wild Wings can run another commercial about how they don't have any plates and every surface in their restaurant-type edifice is unexplainably sticky.

But since that's not going to happen, someone stick this in the rulebook:

"If a defender hits the ball in an attempt to dispossess the offensive player and the ball goes out of bounds as a result, the offense retains possession unless the ball hits a part of the offensive player's body other than the hand or hands the ball is in when contact is made."

Thus routine, uncontroversial basketball plays can resume being routine and uncontroversial even in the last two minutes.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

Post by mister d »

Hell yeah, Bennett.
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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament Thread

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