The Elam Ending

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The Elam Ending

Post by brian »

After the WNBA game last night, Rams Fanny and I had an intense conversation (true) and almost came to blows (false) about The Elam Ending.

I maintain it would be the best thing to happen to basketball since the advent of the shot clock. He thinks it's too big of a change in how basketball games are decided.

If you want to see it in action, there's still seven games left in the TBT on ESPN, where it is being used to decide those games.

Basically, it's simple. The game is played normally, but after the first stoppage of the clock with less than four minutes left in the game, the clock is turned off and eight points are added to the leading team's current score and the game is played to that score. First team to that target score wins. No more intentional fouling and every game ends on a made shot. I think it should be used at every level of basketball -- high school, college, the NBA, you name it.

Here's a pro-Elam article.

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Re: The Elam Ending

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(I think this is the kind of thing that should absolutely be considered by a league like the WNBA. Something to differentiate itself from the men's game and create some extra excitement and incitement to watch on TV.)
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Could it turn into a reverse foul-fest?
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Do refs get combat pay at game point?
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Re: The Elam Ending

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mister d wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:34 am Could it turn into a reverse foul-fest?
The only reason I can think of to intentionally foul anyone -- whether you're leading or behind -- is if the opposing team had a really bad free throw shooter, but that strategy is just as effective with a timed game and doesn't really have anything to do with trying to eliminate the most annoying part of a basketball game, which is the constant fouls and stoppages of play at the end of the game.

(And as Rams Fanny pointed out the endless reviews. Not much can be done about that unfortunately. Probably stuck with that.)
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by L-Jam3 »

To play Devil's Advocate and to piggyback on D, the article mentioned that notoriously bad FT guys like DeAndre or Dwight Howard would not be subbed out in this situation. Are we sure of that? For example, a team that's leading goes into it's half-court offense, and they chuck it down low to DeAndre. He'd still be immediately fouled. Or more so, considering the expected points on a given possession, what stops the losing team from fouling a bricklayer anyway, if the expected points for them on the line is less than the expected points of the normal half-court offense?

ETA: Sorry, didn't see that initial reply.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by mister d »

If you're up 10 + 8, the only way the other team catches you is by getting hot. Even a good FT shooting team is going to make about ~3 for every 2 possessions so while you're probably shrinking your lead, you're also likely preventing them any chance of making up the gap.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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L-Jam3 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:39 am To play Devil's Advocate and to piggyback on D, the article mentioned that notoriously bad FT guys like DeAndre or Dwight Howard would not be subbed out in this situation. Are we sure of that? For example, a team that's leading goes into it's half-court offense, and they chuck it down low to DeAndre. He'd still be immediately fouled. Or more so, considering the expected points on a given possession, what stops the losing team from fouling a bricklayer anyway, if the expected points for them on the line is less than the expected points of the normal half-court offense?

ETA: Sorry, didn't see that initial reply.
I think those are extreme edge cases and at worst, you're talking about a scenario that exists with the current rules as well. I would argue that even in that case at least the intentional fouling is more strategic as opposed to desperate.

I don't think it would be especially common and the trade off to ensure every game ends on a made basket would probably be worth it.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by Joe K »

You could also get intentional fouling from like the 6 minute mark to the 4 minute mark to try and trim the deficit before the Elam ending kicks in.

It would definitely change NBA playoff games a lot. Some of the more recent notable Game 7s (2016 Cavs-Warriors, 2019 Raptors-Sixers, etc.) have been battles of attrition down the stretch so requiring the leading team to score 8 more points would’ve been interesting. (The Warriors didn’t score at all in the final 4.5 minutes of that Game 7 and the Cavs only scored 4 points in that span.)
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by HaulCitgo »

Why not pick a point and play to that... Like every pickup game on the planet.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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HaulCitgo wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:20 pm Why not pick a point and play to that... Like every pickup game on the planet.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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I guess I just don't buy the argument that a close game would have less fouling. Once the analytics guys/gals get ahold of this I'm sure they would find a game theory spread (five seems right but whatever the number) to intentionally foul and play three to give up two. Intentional fouling is used because at some point it became accepted strategy which is more important that the entertainment drag it tends to put on a game.

Also it's inorganic. It is a gimmick in our short-attention-span-I-must-be-constantly-entertained world. Most of our major sports are timed...just let it play out. The sports not timed either play on as usual at the end (baseball) or have tiebreakers (golf, tennis) after a certain amount has been played but it requires participants be tied. If you want to use this instead of overtime then fine but I don't agree with stopping short of allotted time with teams not tied.

If this catches on then are we really that far from rationalizing NHL teams playing 3on3 the last ten minutes ("have to cut down on icing stoppages and oh won't it be fun") or NFL using college OT rules the last 6 minutes ("it will prevent teams from running out clock and scoring will be up")?

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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by sancarlos »

Rams Fanny wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:22 pm I guess I just don't buy the argument that a close game would have less fouling. Once the analytics guys/gals get ahold of this I'm sure they would find a game theory spread (five seems right but whatever the number) to intentionally foul and play three to give up two. Intentional fouling is used because at some point it became accepted strategy which is more important that the entertainment drag it tends to put on a game.

Also it's inorganic. It is a gimmick in our short-attention-span-I-must-be-constantly-entertained world. Most of our major sports are timed...just let it play out. The sports not timed either play on as usual at the end (baseball) or have tiebreakers (golf, tennis) after a certain amount has been played but it requires participants be tied. If you want to use this instead of overtime then fine but I don't agree with stopping short of allotted time with teams not tied.

If this catches on then are we really that far from rationalizing NHL teams playing 3on3 the last ten minutes ("have to cut down on icing stoppages and oh won't it be fun") or NFL using college OT rules the last 6 minutes ("it will prevent teams from running out clock and scoring will be up")?

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The only thing I would say in response is that I'm sure purists thought the shot clock was a stupid gimmick and it turned out pretty well.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by A_B »

sancarlos wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:24 pm
Rams Fanny wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:22 pm I guess I just don't buy the argument that a close game would have less fouling. Once the analytics guys/gals get ahold of this I'm sure they would find a game theory spread (five seems right but whatever the number) to intentionally foul and play three to give up two. Intentional fouling is used because at some point it became accepted strategy which is more important that the entertainment drag it tends to put on a game.

Also it's inorganic. It is a gimmick in our short-attention-span-I-must-be-constantly-entertained world. Most of our major sports are timed...just let it play out. The sports not timed either play on as usual at the end (baseball) or have tiebreakers (golf, tennis) after a certain amount has been played but it requires participants be tied. If you want to use this instead of overtime then fine but I don't agree with stopping short of allotted time with teams not tied.

If this catches on then are we really that far from rationalizing NHL teams playing 3on3 the last ten minutes ("have to cut down on icing stoppages and oh won't it be fun") or NFL using college OT rules the last 6 minutes ("it will prevent teams from running out clock and scoring will be up")?

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The only thing I would say in response is that I'm sure purists thought the shot clock was a stupid gimmick and it turned out pretty well.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Dean Smith. The only man who could keep Jordan from scoring 20.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by wlu_lax6 »

The TBT (The Basketball Tournament) use an Elam ending. I think the $2M tournament is going on right now as I watched some on the treadmill over the past few weeks.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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wlu_lax6 wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:54 pm The TBT (The Basketball Tournament) use an Elam ending. I think the $2M tournament is going on right now as I watched some on the treadmill over the past few weeks.
There's games on ESPN tomorrow and Friday. You guys should watch a game and check out how it works. It's pretty exciting.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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The "trailing team fouls" plan has been used previously. You can continue to the following page for last year's discussion of it. The case I was citing had the opponent fouling the poor free throw shooter away from the ball as soon as it was inbounded.

Also, they have made a change from last year, adding eight points to the leading team's score instead of seven points.

I think you would start seeing teams start fouling the worst free throw shooters well in advance of the rule kicking in (first dead ball under four minutes, quarters are nine minutes long in TBT). I mean, with a 12-man roster, you have probably five guys who can be used strictly for fouling at some point of the fourth quarter, including three who are likely not in the playing rotation at all to burn fouls at any point. Is constant fouling with seven minutes to go any less appealing than constant fouling in the final 90 seconds?
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Don't like it at all, but every reason I can think of is a "Get off my lawn" answer.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Pruitt wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:37 pm Don't like it at all, but every reason I can think of is a "Get off my lawn" answer.
Same. I guess I would be OK with some kind of modified overtime, but I just can't bring myself to like this in non-gimmick events.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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A_B wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:42 pm
Pruitt wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:37 pm Don't like it at all, but every reason I can think of is a "Get off my lawn" answer.
Same. I guess I would be OK with some kind of modified overtime, but I just can't bring myself to like this in non-gimmick events.
It's like an AndOne thing. Or like the Stableford scoring system.

I don;t even like the NHL going to 4 on 4. Something about changing the rules at the end of a game seems silly.

Mind you, I am one who defends the shootout - although I'd prefer to see soccer go to sudden death.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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I’m intrigued by it. It means no more buzzer beaters, and that’s bad, because buzzer beaters are a big part of the fabric of the game. It also means every game technically ends on a buzzer beater, and the gambling potential on who makes the last shot is off the charts. It also means no overtime, which is okay I guess because overtime can be anticlimactic. It seems like a good idea for the NBA regular season as a way to end games quicker and more efficiently. I’m not sure I would want a championship resting on it, just for the missed buzzer beaters.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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It has arrived!


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Re: The Elam Ending

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Nice.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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I think I like the Kobe Ending better than the Elam Ending. My biggest question with Elam was why wouldn't teams just foul earlier before the target score is set, as @DSafetyGuy mentions a few posts earlier. That's less likely to be a good strategy if you're still 24 points away from the game ending.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:00 pm You could also get intentional fouling from like the 6 minute mark to the 4 minute mark to try and trim the deficit before the Elam ending kicks in.

It would definitely change NBA playoff games a lot. Some of the more recent notable Game 7s (2016 Cavs-Warriors, 2019 Raptors-Sixers, etc.) have been battles of attrition down the stretch so requiring the leading team to score 8 more points would’ve been interesting. (The Warriors didn’t score at all in the final 4.5 minutes of that Game 7 and the Cavs only scored 4 points in that span.)
You'd probably be more likely to add to the defecit doing that. Fouling at the end of games is not done because it's a good option, but because it's basically the only option if you need to get the ball back right away.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Gunpowder wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:45 pm
Joe K wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:00 pm You could also get intentional fouling from like the 6 minute mark to the 4 minute mark to try and trim the deficit before the Elam ending kicks in.

It would definitely change NBA playoff games a lot. Some of the more recent notable Game 7s (2016 Cavs-Warriors, 2019 Raptors-Sixers, etc.) have been battles of attrition down the stretch so requiring the leading team to score 8 more points would’ve been interesting. (The Warriors didn’t score at all in the final 4.5 minutes of that Game 7 and the Cavs only scored 4 points in that span.)
You'd probably be more likely to add to the defecit doing that. Fouling at the end of games is not done because it's a good option, but because it's basically the only option if you need to get the ball back right away.
EDIT: This is a throwback. Whoops.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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It’s too bad that this is being introduced in the one game where the advantages of removing the game clock from play are least likely to be appreciated. The ASG doesn’t typically end with a rash of fouls and timeouts and refs visiting the monitor to reset the game clock. I can see people watching this and failing to get the point.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Ending on a made shot is fun though.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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Everyone should just start fouling Shaq
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by degenerasian »

They are doing this in the all-star game, it's pretty awesome. They are playing hard, lots of defense and fouls.

Someone might foul out. They are really guarding 3 point shots.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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a heated argument and challenging fouls in the all star game, now I've seen everything.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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I’m a Stan but that was a goaltend. Clearly hit the glass first.
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Re: The Elam Ending

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those guys were playing some fucking defense
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by Rex »

I went from nervous that it would suck to entertained to very entertained to a bit frightened that someone would get killed out there.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by duff »

Rex wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:48 pm I went from nervous that it would suck to entertained to very entertained to a bit frightened that someone would get killed out there.
I was just waiting for LeBron to blow out a knee or something. It was fun and all, but no subs in the fourth quarter? I did enjoy Lowry taking charges and he had a nice single arm drag and twist on AD at the end.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by Shirley »

I only watched a few minutes of the second quarter and found the lack of D or intensity boring. The highlights of the fourth quarter this morning were pretty awesome though. The more I think about the Elam Ending, the more I like it. It makes organized basketball like the pickup games that make ups about 99% of all basketball played.

The only thing I don't like is the sort of arbitrariness of picking a time to turn off the clock. And it might then incent the same fouling techniques up to that arbitrary time point.

What might work as an intermediate step is to just make OT work that way. If you get to OT, the first team to score 10 more points wins. That would be pretty awesome. And then, if that works for a couple of years, we could think about whether it's something people would want for all game endings.

The late-game fouling and three-point shooting is so ingrained in how we think about basketball that it's hard to even imagine it being gone. But at the same time, it seems like a no-brainer improvement. I much prefer regular basketball to free-throw-shooting contests.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by mister d »

Shirley wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:38 amWhat might work as an intermediate step is to just make OT work that way. If you get to OT, the first team to score 10 more points wins.
I like this. Allows for unforeseen strategies or downside to be mitigated by only mattering in like 5% of games.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by Rex »

There was a little bit of strategic fouling and clock management at the end of the third quarter, but ironically enough, the other gimmick of treating each quarter as a separate game ended up keeping that in check.

Last night convinced me that you would not want an NBA Finals or playoff series decided with that ending. These guys are just too good on defense when they have to be. It also puts the refs in an impossible spot because the physicality goes way up, like in a hockey playoff OT, but unlike hockey the refs have to call something eventually.

But your idea about OT? Sign me up for that right now, at least for the regular season. Also use this for summer league and the in-season tournament whenever they get that going.
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Re: The Elam Ending

Post by Joe K »

Rex wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:49 am Last night convinced me that you would not want an NBA Finals or playoff series decided with that ending. These guys are just too good on defense when they have to be.
Agreed. I’ve re-watched the second half of the 2016 Cavs-Warriors Game 7 once or twice and the tension and defensive intensity at the end of that game was off the charts. Not only were both teams extremely locked-in defensively, the refs were hesitant to call fouls which made it almost impossible to score on drives to the hoop. It would’ve taken like 30 minutes of gameplay for an Elam ending in that game.
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