The Swamp

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:28 pm Pretty much the starting point in economic theory:

"As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can both to employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that its produce may be of the greatest value; every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good. It is an affectation, indeed, not very common among merchants, and very few words need be employed in dissuading them from it."

This is like explaining gumbo and saying "it's rice."

I'm actually starting my MBA this month and having to take a very big, very time consuming class that covers a bunch of "business" related classes because I don't have a business undergrad. (Accounting, finance, business math...etc)

I'm in the Economics portion right now.

The "free hand of the market" is general terms speak for the people collectively deciding what they do and do not want. Not some government driven ideology -- until Reagan forced it like Steve says.

And it also said the role of government in economics is for ... the social welfare of individuals. Regulation, legalities, stabilization, redistribution..etc.

America is also a mixed economy.

Guys, I'm learning new things!

This discussion has been amusing. And Steve and Syb are crushing it.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:32 pm

rass wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:05 pm NJDOH made an adjustment to the “phases” for vaccine distribution earlier this week, adding 75+ year olds to phase 1B which previously had just been essential workers, and didn’t communicate the change to local health departments.

Great, very concerned for my father in law who isn't in the greatest health. I think MiL just misses the cut though.

I think 1B will now include 65+.

Wife just got vaccinated. They're doing a closed distribution today in prep for going public next week.

rass wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:04 am Wife just got vaccinated. They're doing a closed distribution today in prep for going public next week.

That's great to hear.

Due to her company's relationship with a doctor's office my wife is also being vaccinated today along with some coworkers.

Huzzah Swampwives!

My parents are scheduled to get theirs tomorrow.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:49 am I'm actually starting my MBA this month and having to take a very big, very time consuming class that covers a bunch of "business" related classes because I don't have a business undergrad. (Accounting, finance, business math...etc)

I'm in the Economics portion right now.

The "free hand of the market" is general terms speak for the people collectively deciding what they do and do not want. Not some government driven ideology -- until Reagan forced it like Steve says.

And it also said the role of government in economics is for ... the social welfare of individuals. Regulation, legalities, stabilization, redistribution..etc.

America is also a mixed economy.

Guys, I'm learning new things!

This discussion has been amusing. And Steve and Syb are crushing it.

Excellent. Where did you end up going? My first semester was either feast or famine in terms of workload. It was either very easy to do it all each week or very very difficult. And the project at the end was crazy in terms of the work we put in (we got a 133.99/135 and I easily got my A for reimbursement!).

They also offered an add on for those who don't have business backgrounds but with a finance degree and I opted out of that portion this break.

I apologize for my stripped down knowledge of economics but I still think my point holds if you don't get too deep in the weeds on it. You guy's discussion is fascinating.

Congrats to the VaxWives. There's a dirty joke in here but I'm not gonna get jumped when we all hit Vegas this year.

Mine gets a strange prick in her today too.

(it's the vaccine)

A_B wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:59 am

Johnnie wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:49 am I'm actually starting my MBA this month and having to take a very big, very time consuming class that covers a bunch of "business" related classes because I don't have a business undergrad. (Accounting, finance, business math...etc)

Excellent. Where did you end up going? My first semester was either feast or famine in terms of workload. It was either very easy to do it all each week or very very difficult. And the project at the end was crazy in terms of the work we put in (we got a 133.99/135 and I easily got my A for reimbursement!).

They also offered an add on for those who don't have business backgrounds but with a finance degree and I opted out of that portion this break.

Western Kentucky's that I brought up before. Being covered by military tuition assistance, having 8 week long courses, and also having the concentration in Supply Chain Management just puts it far above anything else that I've found to be interested in

Plus, it's kinda coincidental to go there because a good buddy of mine from my first base always wore his WKU hat at work and I'd go "Oh, the Hilltoppers. Nice " And he'd look at me like "How do you know that?" As if I'd never heard of The Bowling Green Massacre college basketball. Plus, their mascot is hilarious and I'll have an excuse to visit Kentucky (possibly even walk during graduation) in the future.

A guy I work with has lost his Dad, Stepmom, Uncle, and Cousin in the last two weeks to Covid.

JFC

Square Rob wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:26 am A guy I work with has lost his Dad, Stepmom, Uncle, and Cousin in the last two weeks to Covid.

Good lord.

Two days ago my wife found out that vaccines were finally being made available to all employees at SLC schools.

Then yesterday she is told that she can't get the vaccine because they're only doing teachers and staffers who are 55 and older. (Which would be fine for me, but she's a few years younger.)

Then she got an email just now saying that a slot opened up for her tomorrow afternoon.

I really hope this goes through. I think once she is vaccinated, I personally will be about ninety percent less worried about personal risk. I don't think I or my kids are terribly at risk if we get Covid, but my wife has an elevated risk and a lot of extra stress associated with it.

Good luck. Does anyone know why they didn't use the past nine months to figure out websites that don't crash and fail miserably. Like they didn't do shit til the vaccine was ready. Could have been so much better than randomly hitting refresh and calling busy lines.

NJ has decided to switch up the vaccine phases again (with one day's notice) so if you're a senior (or considered high risk for health reasons) your turn is coming up starting tomorrow.

And good luck to steve-arita.

rass wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:08 pm NJ has decided to switch up the vaccine phases again (with one day's notice) so if you're a senior (or considered high risk for health reasons) your turn is coming up starting tomorrow.

Very excited to get my inlaws vaccinated ASAP. They have taken quarantine to an unhealthy extreme and need to get out.

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:33 pm Good luck. Does anyone know why they didn't use the past nine months to figure out websites that don't crash and fail miserably. Like they didn't do shit til the vaccine was ready. Could have been so much better than randomly hitting refresh and calling busy lines.

Who is "they"? If you're talking about local, county, and state health officials, they've been a little busy since March.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:33 pm

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:33 pm Good luck. Does anyone know why they didn't use the past nine months to figure out websites that don't crash and fail miserably. Like they didn't do shit til the vaccine was ready. Could have been so much better than randomly hitting refresh and calling busy lines.

Who is "they"? If you're talking about local, county, and state health officials, they've been a little busy since March.

I dunno, man. There's a whole government apparatus, including emergency management folks, that should be able to get on board and help with this stuff.

Re: issues in getting vaccine out efficiently - waves hand at WH.

All it does is beg the system to be gamed. How much would it take to hire someone to grab all the appointments. How much would someone pay for those appointments. It's like they want the market to find its own methods. When you open the gates too wide (65+ and caregivers in GA) its practically begging everyone to come calling.

tennbengal wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:03 pm Re: issues in getting vaccine out efficiently - waves hand at WH.

Sure, the Trump Administrations sucks at this. So apparently do the Merkel Administration, the Johnson Administration, the Trudeau Administration, the Plenkovic Administration, ...

Fair to say the govt got the drug development piece right (no small thanks to the fact that usa has most of worlds pharma r&d... Assumed) and the distribution piece wrong. Not too late but they had months to get this right. Question: run the same numbers in chart against # if vaccine available to that nation.

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:49 pm Fair to say the govt got the drug development piece right (no small thanks to the fact that usa has most of worlds pharma r&d... Assumed) and the distribution piece wrong. Not too late but they had months to get this right. Question: run the same numbers in chart against # if vaccine available to that nation.

I had come across an article earlier that takes into account differing dates of vaccine availability. Basically, the US is in the top tier of the NATO/EU countries - though Israel is way ahead of everyone.

https://www.universalpersonality.com/20 ... uve-heard/

(I have no idea who these authors are or what their qualifications are, so maybe this is all bullshit.)

So why are the Euros and Canada doing so poorly?

Someone should be shot for this. Wtf. These dumb fucks sat on their hands and did shit for 9 months.

ATLANTA — This week, Mercedes-Benz Stadium in downtown Atlanta opened as a COVID-19 vaccination site for people older than 65, helping to speed up the process.

"We can literally process thousands of people in one day, whereas in the smaller sites we just don't have that capacity," said Fulton County District Health Director Lynn Paxton.

The stadium is one of three mass vaccination sites in the county right now.

"We are doing it every day there, as well as our sites at Aviation Cultural Center on Fulton Industrial Boulevard and at a site in Alpharetta," said the county's chief clinical officer, David Holland.

Holland said he hopes these sites can help Fulton County reach their vaccination goals, which got off to a slow start.

"We really want to get to the point where we can do 3,000 vaccines a day," Holland said.

That's about three times the number of people that Fulton County is vaccinating right now. Holland said that so far, the main delays are not caused by a lack of vaccine, but rather scheduling issues and staffing.

"It's going to take a lot more resources than what we've got currently in the public health system to get where we need to be," Holland said.

But, he said, more help is on the way.

"Some time and some money," Holland said. "Both are coming. On-boarding additional staff as we speak and money coming to help us hire more staff."

Some technical staff is on the way from the Department of Public Health too, moving Fulton County away from a paper system, which should speed scheduling on the front end and accurate records on the back end.

"Next month, some time, it will be an online link where people can pick an appointment, put in all the information, come in and all the info will be in the computer -- get the vaccine and all that will be recorded," Holland said.

"Holland said that they hope to reach their goal of 3,000 vaccinations a day by the end of February.

If you'd like to volunteer to help with staffing shortages -- medical or non-medical -- you can go online to sign up at: https://dph.georgia.gov/servga

Right. Literally, they knew this time would come. How the fed govt in conjunction with state govts was not ready for this part is beyond me.

The guy just says this like it's ok.


"Next month, some time, it will be an online link where people can pick an appointment, put in all the information, come in and all the info will be in the computer -- get the vaccine and all that will be recorded," Holland said.

Rex wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:01 pm So why are the Euros and Canada doing so poorly?

I think I’d say that these other countries aren’t doing poorly either. They’re all doing something that’s really really difficult.

Has any country anywhere ever done a rapid universal vaccination?

Country being the key. Instead of 24hr military operations we got a county employee trying to manage what is apparently really really difficult but which is about what chick-fil-a does everyday. The hard part is developing distributing manufacturing the vaccines. Drive thru shots isn't that.

Our family doc let us know that he has doses coming. Given the stepson is immunocompromised the wife and I are on the list to get it.

Really anxious to see when he can get it directly. It’s currently not recommended as the clinical trials did not cover enough people like him.

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:03 pm Country being the key. Instead of 24hr military operations we got a county employee trying to manage what is apparently really really difficult but which is about what chick-fil-a does everyday. The hard part is developing distributing manufacturing the vaccines. Drive thru shots isn't that.

If Chik-fil-a needed to serve 300,000,000 people, could only serve one every 5 minutes, and had to make sure to only serve people in limited categories in order, had to store half their products at insanely low temps at all times, and didn’t have any previous infrastructure for handling their products beforehand.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:35 am

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:03 pm Country being the key. Instead of 24hr military operations we got a county employee trying to manage what is apparently really really difficult but which is about what chick-fil-a does everyday. The hard part is developing distributing manufacturing the vaccines. Drive thru shots isn't that.

If Chik-fil-a needed to serve 300,000,000 people, could only serve one every 5 minutes, and had to make sure to only serve people in limited categories in order, had to store half their products at insanely low temps at all times, and didn’t have any previous infrastructure for handling their products beforehand.

and it's closed on Sunday.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:45 pm

Rex wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:01 pm So why are the Euros and Canada doing so poorly?

I think I’d say that these other countries aren’t doing poorly either. They’re all doing something that’s really really difficult.

Has any country anywhere ever done a rapid universal vaccination?

Israel is doing an incredible job.

But that's a tiny country.

People are getting pissed off up here: In 29 days, Canada has given enough COVID-19 vaccine doses to cover 1 per cent of population

Bureaucracy, bureaucracy, bureaucracy. It seems that our governments spent more time producing ads telling us to be careful and that we'll all get through this together, than they did working out the logistics.

Canada's vaccine rollout to date lags behind that of other major Western nations, according to Our World in Data. Even after adjusting for population, the United States has been able to vaccinate its citizens at 2.7 times Canada's rate, while the United Kingdom has done so at more than four times our rate.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:35 am

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:03 pm Country being the key. Instead of 24hr military operations we got a county employee trying to manage what is apparently really really difficult but which is about what chick-fil-a does everyday. The hard part is developing distributing manufacturing the vaccines. Drive thru shots isn't that.

If Chik-fil-a needed to serve 300,000,000 people, could only serve one every 5 minutes, and had to make sure to only serve people in limited categories in order, had to store half their products at insanely low temps at all times, and didn’t have any previous infrastructure for handling their products beforehand.

Except none of that is true. Join the trump administration. Couple days left.

In NJ the bulk of distribution to the general public is being handled by local health departments. If you've been following along, my wife works for a health department in one of the larger municipalities in the state. Here's an incomplete off the top of my head list of blockers/diversions they've had to deal with since a little over a month ago when they learned that delivery of the vaccine was imminent:

-They need nurses or doctors to both deliver the shots and to be on hand in case someone has a bad reaction to the shot. They have local docs (not sure if they're volunteering or being paid) but are still short on nurses.

-time spent planning on how to store and handle the Pfizer vaccine before the state announced that it would be going exclusively to medical facilities (hospitals) with existing ability to store it and the Moderna vaccine would be going everywhere else (she was a dry ice expert there for a bit)

-planning for a paper-based system for registering vaccine recipients day of on-site, including purchasing large volumes of pens and paper goods (for instance, cardboard that can be provided to someone in a car so they can legibly fill out a form and then thrown away for safety purposes, and then bags or receptacles where the cardboard can be disposed) before learning late in December that the state would require pre-registration via a web portal

(those prior two are instances where they got burned for planning ahead of time, before the details were set, arguably because the details were set by entities above them far too late in the process)

-multiple issues with the state registration portal, not the least of which is getting access to it for those who qualify for the vaccine but lack a smartphone, internet access, or just the ability to navigate to and fill out an online form

-purchasing tablets to access the portal on site, arranging for the tablets to have the necessary wifi access/cellular plans, and making sure the necessary staff is trained in using the tablets and the portal

-changes made by the state to the means-based "phases" of vaccine distribution, most often with little or no prior heads up to the departments responsible for distribution

-Location. They needed a place with a large parking lot for them to set up shop to allow cars to queue up, where cars backing out of the location and on to local roads wouldn't completely disrupt traffic. They also needed facilities (bathrooms) available for staff that will be on location all day long, and for safety purposes for those facilities and the parking lot to not be in use (or minimally in use) during the vaccine clinics. They settled on one of the schools in town. At the time this was planned the schools were part-time, so they scheduled Wednesdays because that the one day a week when no students and teachers were at school. The schools have since made the decision to go and stay remote through March, so they might be able to expand to other weekdays, in addition to scheduling Saturday events.

-Using indoor facilities isn't an option for safety purpose and the shots will be delivered to recipients in their cars. But it's the middle of winter, and heading into the spring it rains a lot in NJ, so they need shelter for staff. They purchased a semi-permanent structure weeks ago that finally arrived and is being put together this weekend, hopefully in time for next Wednesday's clinic.

-debating whether people would get pissed if they used a washable glass marker to markup car windows as vehicles/occupants are processed through the queue (I found this one humorous)

-coordinating with the PD and DPW to make sure they can provide needed support

-purchasing and getting their hands on PPE for the staff

-getting staff and volunteers who will be working public distribution events vaccinated

-Paying city employees for OT/weekends

-dealing with political BS and posturing from the city council

-getting access to enough of the vaccine to meet demand



So some of those are just to be expected for a large scale event like this. Some are overhead from keeping these events safe in the middle of a pandemic and/or winter.

Equipment and vaccine shortages and all of the late-stage changes in processes from the state and technical issues with the state portal are pretty inexcusable at this point.

And all of that is why I look back to the WH --- federal direction and funding of the the vaccine delivery should have been the primary consideration for so large a project. This is the same the-market-will-take-care-of-it-better crap that we saw when the pandemic started and there were not enough N-95 masks (there still are not btw).

When we needed tanks and planes in 1941 - the US govt funded/built them. They didn't farm that shit out.

This should have been the same way. Asking hospitals, clinics, CVS, etc to do this on a mass scale was folly.

tennbengal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:35 am And all of that is why I look back to the WH --- federal direction and funding of the the vaccine delivery should have been the primary consideration for so large a project. This is the same the-market-will-take-care-of-it-better crap that we saw when the pandemic started and there were not enough N-95 masks (there still are not btw).

When we needed tanks and planes in 1941 - the US govt funded/built them. They didn't farm that shit out.

This should have been the same way. Asking hospitals, clinics, CVS, etc to do this on a mass scale was folly.

The US government funded tanks and planes, sure. But the private sector designed and manufactured them. And of course there were lots of disasters and delays and fuckups along the way.

Is there a federal infrastructure that involves delivering health care at an individual level? If not, they'd have to do it from scratch.

Though maybe we should have the Post Office do it.