Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:29 am

I only mention AOC, because I hear that shit a lot and the reason there aren't more AOCs is because the potential AOCs would just rather be whiny bitches and complain that they can't change anything and throw their hands up in the air and piss on themselves instead of scrapping to change things like she is (and Tlaib, Omar, Pressley, etc.)
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Johnnie » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:30 am

Not as good as The Lincoln Project.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:32 am

Johnnie wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:30 am
Not as good as The Lincoln Project.
That's for a reason. PACs can do a lot of things the candidates can't. The point is his ads have done a good job of hitting Trump about as much as they can.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:51 am

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:21 am
Well, to be fair a lot of the Bernie Bots who might be of some help are still busy complaining about Joe Biden instead of trying to move the Democrats to the left from the inside like AOC. It's a lot harder to get into the tent and try to change things with activism than it is to sit on the sideline and complain about how the game is rigged.
God this is so fucking tiring. The Democrats actively work against AOC; they tried to prevent her election and are now organizing to prevent others like her from joining the party. People say the party isn't for the left because the party demonstrably isn't for the left.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:53 am

mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:51 am
brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:21 am
Well, to be fair a lot of the Bernie Bots who might be of some help are still busy complaining about Joe Biden instead of trying to move the Democrats to the left from the inside like AOC. It's a lot harder to get into the tent and try to change things with activism than it is to sit on the sideline and complain about how the game is rigged.
God this is so fucking tiring. The Democrats actively work against AOC; they tried to prevent her election and are now organizing to prevent others like her from joining the party. People say the party isn't for the left because the party demonstrably isn't for the left.
So the solution is either fight back or quit complaining.

(Or I suppose quixotically try to start your own third party.)
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:58 am

Did the Republicans move so far to the right all these years because of right-wing activists bitching and moaning and propping up Libertarian candidates and complaining about George HW Bush was "too liberal"?

No, they went out and won local elections and influenced the party from within. This isn't fucking rocket science. You're not going to move the Democrats to the left by not voting for Biden, as if that's going to somehow teach him or the Democrats a lesson.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by The Sybian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:00 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:27 am
I don't know if you've been watching Joe Biden's ads. The ads from the ACTUAL CANDIDATE, but they've been pretty damn good.
It's probably pretty telling that Lincoln Project ads pop up very frequently in my social media feeds or get shared by my father through email, but I don't recall seeing a single Biden ad.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by P.D.X. » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:02 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:00 pm
brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:27 am
I don't know if you've been watching Joe Biden's ads. The ads from the ACTUAL CANDIDATE, but they've been pretty damn good.
It's probably pretty telling that Lincoln Project ads pop up very frequently in my social media feeds or get shared by my father through email, but I don't recall seeing a single Biden ad.
Hit jobs from within a party are more sensational and prob likely to be shared more.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:03 pm

Here's one from yesterday alone, there were a couple really good ones from last week as well:

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:05 pm

Remember, especially right now Biden's ads are necessarily hopeful for two reasons -- it's been a pretty dark month for the country, but it creates a contrast with Trump and hopefully draws in white suburbanites and other potential swing voters who are just tired of Trump's rhetoric and want a return to normalcy.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:08 pm

One of the reasons Biden is running up such a big lead is that Trump can't effectively attack him. Almost no one "hates" Joe Biden. At worst, most people uninformed about politics might feel a vague antipathy towards him. As some of those people get to "know" Biden more it's going to make Trump's attacks seem more and more unhinged and desperate. Americans don't like desperate and they definitely don't like losers and Trump is starting to get the stench of a loser on him.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:08 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:53 am
So the solution is either fight back or quit complaining.
Then acknowledge its a fight against the party itself, not your new "millennials would rather eat avocado toast than run for congress" routine.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm

mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:08 pm
brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:53 am
So the solution is either fight back or quit complaining.
Then acknowledge its a fight against the party itself, not your new "millennials would rather eat avocado toast than run for congress" routine.
I never said that nor did I even imply it. Primary your state rep or senator from the left (as a Democrat) or back someone who is. That's how the party moves to the left. I guarantee it doesn't happen by bitching about Joe Biden on a message board.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Pruitt » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:11 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:08 pm
One of the reasons Biden is running up such a big lead is that Trump can't effectively attack him. Almost no one "hates" Joe Biden. At worst, most people uninformed about politics might feel a vague antipathy towards him. As some of those people get to "know" Biden more it's going to make Trump's attacks seem more and more unhinged and desperate. Americans don't like desperate and they definitely don't like losers and Trump is starting to get the stench of a loser on him.
He can't pick on Biden's age, can't bring up Tara Reade, really shouldn't mention his ne'er do well sleazeball of a son.

Economy's in the toilet, coronavirus is probably going to get worse.

So it's socialism, and guns and abortion.

ETA: and this too...

Last edited by Pruitt on Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:11 pm

While we're on the topic, AOC's primary run is borderline parody. Millionaire "former" Republican who moved to AOC's district from Trump Tower specifically to challenge. Can't wait to see how hard the party fights to protect one of their own on this one.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:12 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm
Primary your state rep or senator from the left (as a Democrat) or back someone who is. That's how the party moves to the left. I guarantee it doesn't happen by bitching about Joe Biden on a message board.
Donald Payne is a far better rep for Newark and Essex County than I would be.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:13 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:10 pm
mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:08 pm
brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:53 am
So the solution is either fight back or quit complaining.
Then acknowledge its a fight against the party itself, not your new "millennials would rather eat avocado toast than run for congress" routine.
I never said that nor did I even imply it. Primary your state rep or senator from the left (as a Democrat) or back someone who is. That's how the party moves to the left. I guarantee it doesn't happen by bitching about Joe Biden on a message board.
brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:29 am
... because the potential AOCs would just rather be whiny bitches and complain that they can't change anything and throw their hands up in the air and piss on themselves ...
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 pm

mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:11 pm
While we're on the topic, AOC's primary run is borderline parody. Millionaire "former" Republican who moved to AOC's district from Trump Tower specifically to challenge. Can't wait to see how hard the party fights to protect one of their own on this one.
I don't even know what you're implying here. AOC is going to win that primary by like 50 points and the Dem establishment hasn't backed her opponent as far as I know, but I don't follow local politics in NYC closely at all.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:16 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 pm
I don't even know what you're implying here. AOC is going to win that primary by like 50 points and the Dem establishment hasn't backed her opponent as far as I know, but I don't follow local politics in NYC closely at all.
I'm saying contrast Pelosi et all backing Engel versus Bowman with their silence when its AOC versus a literal Republican in Democrats clothing.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:16 pm

mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:16 pm
brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 pm
I don't even know what you're implying here. AOC is going to win that primary by like 50 points and the Dem establishment hasn't backed her opponent as far as I know, but I don't follow local politics in NYC closely at all.
I'm saying contrast Pelosi et all backing Engel versus Bowman with their silence when its AOC versus a literal Republican in Democrats clothing.
Maybe because AOC doesn't need their help in a D+50 district?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:22 pm

mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:16 pm
brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 pm
I don't even know what you're implying here. AOC is going to win that primary by like 50 points and the Dem establishment hasn't backed her opponent as far as I know, but I don't follow local politics in NYC closely at all.
I'm saying contrast Pelosi et all backing Engel versus Bowman with their silence when its AOC versus a literal Republican in Democrats clothing.
Other than continually running more progressive candidates for those offices like we're trying to do against Engel, I'm curious what you propose exactly.

Because you seem to be full of complaints, but not many solutions. A legitimate third-party to the left of the Dems is probably not a realistic option. So what's your fix then? Because complaining about it ad nauseam here isn't doing anything I assure you.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:27 pm

There's a bunch of PACs and groups dedicated to finding and supporting candidates to run the left of conservative Democrats. Support those, amplify their voices, but this constant bitching and moaning about Biden and the Democrats and everything else has got to stop. It's annoying and counter-productive. He's the candidate. We have to beat Trump. Let's get that done and then let's start brooming out the Republican-lite Democrats in Congress and state legislatures.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:29 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:22 pm
Other than continually running more progressive candidates for those offices like we're trying to do against Engel, I'm curious what you propose exactly.

Because you seem to be full of complaints, but not many solutions. A legitimate third-party to the left of the Dems is probably not a realistic option. So what's your fix then? Because complaining about it ad nauseam here isn't doing anything I assure you.
Nothing we haven't been saying for a long time. Stop falling for the "Blue No Matter Who" nonsense that both blocks progressives coming from the left then blames their bases for refusing to support Dem candidates that run counter to the base's beliefs and self-interests.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by P.D.X. » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm

Christ. Get the nazi out of the WH, then change the party.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Nonlinear FC » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:38 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Christ. Get the nazi out of the WH, then change the party.
This.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:41 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:38 pm
P.D.X. wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Christ. Get the nazi out of the WH, then change the party.
This.
The point I'm trying to make.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Nonlinear FC » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:46 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:41 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:38 pm
P.D.X. wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Christ. Get the nazi out of the WH, then change the party.
This.
The point I'm trying to make.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:51 pm

I don't think anyone in the Swamp voted for Biden in the primaries anyway, so not sure whom exactly Mr. D is trying to sell, but I'm absolutely enthusiastically voting for Biden in November, will be donating some money at some point I'm sure and will be phone banking or otherwise trying to help get him elected. If someone wants to primary him from the left in 2024, we can have that discussion then (though I'm about 90 percent convinced if he wins he's only going to serve a single-term, which is another reason why I think it might be smart to have someone with some national clout like Warren or Harris as his VP).
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:04 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:41 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:38 pm
P.D.X. wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:31 pm
Christ. Get the nazi out of the WH, then change the party.
This.
The point I'm trying to make.
(1) As long as there's a republican party, every election cycle will be an existential threat.
(2) I remain quite firm in my belief that Joe Biden is not the best candidate to get the Nazi out of the White House so going rah-rah behind him, at this stage, runs counter to our shared goal.
(3) I joined this at "why don't more progressives run for congress instead of going pee on themselves".
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Johnnie » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:19 pm

Johnnie wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:09 am
Pruitt wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:26 pm
Not surprising that it took a bunch of disaffected Republicans to really show the Democrats how to fight nastily.
Except only AOC seems to know how to do that. All the others are too busy acting like they care.
Reminder that this tangent of discussion stems from my agreeing with Pruitt about how it takes Republicans to show Democrats how to politick nastily.

I have yet to see any of the 232* other House members or 48 Senate Dems go as hard as AOC on Twitter. Some go hard, but not as hard as AOC.

On the whole, the vast majority of Democrats are bland as shit on social media.

But great discussion otherwise!

*Edit
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:42 pm

Nadler went pretty hard at ... people who think Nadler should act in response to Barr?
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Steve of phpBB » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:09 pm

Johnnie wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:26 am
But yes, it's the progressives' fault the Democratic establishment that just had one of the best midterm Congressional performance in decades and has their presidential candidate holding the largest polling lead over an incumbent since polling began isn't better at playing politics.
Fixed that for you.

And yeah, I know the whole "fixed that" thing is played out, but I think it illustrates an important point. It's a little silly to accuse the Dem establishment of being bad at politics given their recent performance.

I think there's a couple of things going on here. One is that we are failing to distinguish between what we find satisfying to see and what voters in general care about. The other - which is related - is that mostly what we see is what gets retweeted into our timelines. So we see AOC's or the Lincoln Project's latest slam on Trump, and that appeals to us, and because we don't see that from, say Joe Biden himself, the guy with a 13-point polling lead over the incumbent, we say he's bad at politics. Really?

For what it's worth, I see tweets from Ted Lieu, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell, Brian Schatz, and even Nancy Pelosi that go after Trump just as negatively as anything AOC says or does. No, they aren't as nasty as what the Lincoln Project does, but these people have to appeal to actual voters (and are subject to media criticism). And we have no idea what is more effective anyway; we just know what we like to see.

I love AOC. But of course she's a child of the digital age, and also she's really fucking clever and smart. And also, it's easier to be clever in response to an attack than it is in launching one. Because she's a lightning rod, she gets attacks like Trump's from the stage on Saturday, which positions her to smack Trump down in response. But Trump isn't out there attacking Ted Lieu or Brian Schatz as frequently. And no one cares what they say anyway.

Regarding Engel, it's quite possible that as a sitting congressman whose vote Pelosi and the Dem establishment needed at various times, he worked a deal where if he votes with them on these issues, they support him in the primary. Or maybe they didn't work an explicit deal, they are just showing loyalty to someone who has shown loyalty to them. Either way, it's how legislative politics works. And just like the Dem establishment support didn't mean anything when it came to counting votes for Sanders or Biden in the presidential primaries, establishment support won't mean anything when it comes to counting votes in the district primary tomorrow. If the actual Dem voters prefer Engel, he will win. If they prefer the new guy, the new guy will win.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Pruitt » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:25 pm

Was it Truman who said - "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."?

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:48 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:09 pm
And yeah, I know the whole "fixed that" thing is played out, but I think it illustrates an important point. It's a little silly to accuse the Dem establishment of being bad at politics given their recent performance.
Steeeeeeeve. Steve. The reason they had a big mid-term and have a large polling lead with an uninspiring candidate is because they fucked up historically bad in the first place. Its analogous to Trump claiming biggest unemployment rebound a few months from now.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Steve of phpBB » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:00 pm

mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:48 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:09 pm
And yeah, I know the whole "fixed that" thing is played out, but I think it illustrates an important point. It's a little silly to accuse the Dem establishment of being bad at politics given their recent performance.
Steeeeeeeve. Steve. The reason they had a big mid-term and have a large polling lead with an uninspiring candidate is because they fucked up historically bad in the first place. Its analogous to Trump claiming biggest unemployment rebound a few months from now.
No, that doesn't work. I'm not talking about number of seats gained from one Congress to the next, where doing bad one time can make it easier to do better the next. I'm talking about the percentage of the vote in the 2018 election.

But you may be right. If the Dems had run a moderate instead of a liberal who supported Black Lives Matter and abortion rights and pledged to expand Obamacare and massively increase the national minimum wage, they probably would have won in 2016. The Republicans had a candidate seen as moderate, maybe the Dems should have also.

Hell, if the Dems had run someone less liberal than Obama in the first place, they might even have held onto their House majority.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by P.D.X. » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:07 pm

uninspiring to far lefties (like myself) = safe = appealing to a larger spectrum of the electorate = better chance at beating an incumbent

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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by brian » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:12 pm

But let's make sure to keep re-litigating 2016 because that's definitely helpful also.
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:35 pm

Lets give them a pass (everyone makes mistakes!) and shoutdown anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly trust their leadership for 2020!
rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

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mister d
The Dude
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by mister d » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:37 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:00 pm
I'm talking about the percentage of the vote in the 2018 election.
That's all reaction against Trump, not some savvy leadership. It wouldn't have been the same if Romney were president and we both know that; they created their own easier path to gains.
rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

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Steve of phpBB
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Re: Trump Admin Meltdown Thread Part V - All Hail King Donald, First of his name

Post by Steve of phpBB » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:13 pm

mister d wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:37 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:00 pm
I'm talking about the percentage of the vote in the 2018 election.
That's all reaction against Trump, not some savvy leadership. It wouldn't have been the same if Romney were president and we both know that; they created their own easier path to gains.
Okay. But we’re talking about whether the Dems know what they’re doing *at this particular time*. It seems like they are doing that rather well.

Also, I think it’s too easy to say “it’s just a reaction to Trump” as if that was destiny. The Dems have made strategic or tactical decisions that have led the electorate to focus on their reaction to Trump - decisions that have been controversial, to say the least.

If certain folks had their way, the Dems would be running on an ambitious Democratic Socialist platform promising to remake the entire health care industry, raise taxes, and fundamentally reshape society. For better and for worse, the Dems aren’t doing that. But if they had, “reaction to Trump” might not be the driving force in the election.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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