Coronavirus - All Sports

Okay . . . let's try this again.

Moderators: Shirley, brian, ZMan, Sabo

HaulCitgo
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by HaulCitgo » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm

Why is the wnba going through with this anyway? And why are so many wnba players lesbians? Noticed she said wife. Not disparaging, legitimately curious... err wondering. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask this question. Is there an answer?

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:59 pm

Nah you’re being homophobic and sexist actually. Step away from this particular discussion. Unless that’s who you are and then just step away from all conversation.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

HaulCitgo
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by HaulCitgo » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:01 pm

I hear you. Half in jest and probably sexist and homophobic as you say but the other half legitimate. Do you know?

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:05 pm

Well that makes no sense. Pray tell which part of your wholly sexist and homophobic post is legit? The sexist part or the homophobic part?
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

HaulCitgo
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by HaulCitgo » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:07 pm

The question of why a disproportionate percentage of elite female athletes are lgbtq. I'm allowed to ask that. I probably shouldn't question why the league wants to play.

User avatar
wlu_lax6
The Dude
Posts: 7183
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:16 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by wlu_lax6 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:08 am

Better question, why does Wikipedia not include her wife in the profile page? Seems like most other athletes and movie stars have their wives, kids, etc on the right hand summary part and a personal section. Is this a wikipedia thing or do you think the athletes don't want that promoted because they think it may impact endorsements.

But back to the point, why was the WNBA surprised by this. Delle Donne left UConn and quit basketball for a bit because she wanted to be able to be near her sister (who is deaf and blind, is unable to speak, and also has cerebral palsy and autism). So I am not surprised at all about her position (regardless of the Lyme disease issue).

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:15 am

HaulCitgo wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:07 pm
The question of why a disproportionate percentage of elite female athletes are lgbtq. I'm allowed to ask that. I probably shouldn't question why the league wants to play.
Did you grow up under a rock?

And of course you're allowed to ask anything, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come off as homophobic. Do you wonder "why are so many NBA players straight?" Then why bother with the inverse, because it is irrelevant.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

psunate77
Maude Lebowski
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:41 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by psunate77 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:18 am

HaulCitgo wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm
Why is the wnba going through with this anyway? And why are so many wnba players lesbians? Noticed she said wife. Not disparaging, legitimately curious... err wondering. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask this question. Is there an answer?

Why does their sexual preference matter?

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:20 am

wlu_lax6 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:08 am
Better question, why does Wikipedia not include her wife in the profile page? Seems like most other athletes and movie stars have their wives, kids, etc on the right hand summary part and a personal section. Is this a wikipedia thing or do you think the athletes don't want that promoted because they think it may impact endorsements.

But back to the point, why was the WNBA surprised by this. Delle Donne left UConn and quit basketball for a bit because she wanted to be able to be near her sister (who is deaf and blind, is unable to speak, and also has cerebral palsy and autism). So I am not surprised at all about her position (regardless of the Lyme disease issue).
Most of the notable gay athletes these days have zero issues being out and proud about it. They wouldn't want endorsements that came with such strings. I'll put my conspiracy theory hat on and say it's probably people that can edit any page they want that could just take it out if they didn't like it.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

User avatar
wlu_lax6
The Dude
Posts: 7183
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:16 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by wlu_lax6 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:23 am

A_B wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:20 am
wlu_lax6 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:08 am
Better question, why does Wikipedia not include her wife in the profile page? Seems like most other athletes and movie stars have their wives, kids, etc on the right hand summary part and a personal section. Is this a wikipedia thing or do you think the athletes don't want that promoted because they think it may impact endorsements.

But back to the point, why was the WNBA surprised by this. Delle Donne left UConn and quit basketball for a bit because she wanted to be able to be near her sister (who is deaf and blind, is unable to speak, and also has cerebral palsy and autism). So I am not surprised at all about her position (regardless of the Lyme disease issue).
Most of the notable gay athletes these days have zero issues being out and proud about it. They wouldn't want endorsements that came with such strings. I'll put my conspiracy theory hat on and say it's probably people that can edit any page they want that could just take it out if they didn't like it.
that was my thought too. But figured you would have just as many folks on the other side editing.

User avatar
BSF21
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4377
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:14 am

psunate77 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:18 am
HaulCitgo wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm
Why is the wnba going through with this anyway? And why are so many wnba players lesbians? Noticed she said wife. Not disparaging, legitimately curious... err wondering. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask this question. Is there an answer?

Why does their sexual preference matter?
Yea, and what's with all the Black guys in the NBA and NFL? And the Dominicans in the MLB?

See how training your line of thinking on one particular aspect of a person is problematic?
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."

HaulCitgo
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by HaulCitgo » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:23 am

BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:14 am
psunate77 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:18 am
HaulCitgo wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm
Why is the wnba going through with this anyway? And why are so many wnba players lesbians? Noticed she said wife. Not disparaging, legitimately curious... err wondering. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask this question. Is there an answer?

Why does their sexual preference matter?
Yea, and what's with all the Black guys in the NBA and NFL? And the Dominicans in the MLB?

See how training your line of thinking on one particular aspect of a person is problematic?
Also good questions. You don't need to shy away from that convo. The reason people don't like it is because it leads to a question of whether there are physical differences and many aren't comfortable with the inverse argument (then whites must be smarter because they are disproportionately successful in school/testing/economic class). We can't shut people down for asking. I should have been more tactful in bringing up a potentially controversial subject but the answer cant be youre a sexist/homophobe if you ask.

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:30 am

The way you presented it initially was sexist and homophobic. But you seem to realize you could have presented it more tactfully as well.

The "why is the WNBA doing this" diminishes the league and a group of professionals who want to do their jobs and provide entertainment and the logical assumption(if you don't have the same qualms about MLS, NBA, MLB) is that it's not popular because it's women. Whether you want to consume it is a personal preferences, but I think it's a good thing that they are trying to offer their product to their fans.

And the "whites being smarter" has been disproven when you account for opportunity. The reason that whites have been more "successful" almost always goes back to the issues of the systemic racism that continually provided less opportunity for people of color.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

HaulCitgo
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by HaulCitgo » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:33 am

Yeah. That was the problem with what I said but the WNBA also sucks compared to men's hoops. It's a different less exciting game. Now lots of that is my sexist bias showing but lots is true. Some sports work well with less explosive athletes but hoops isn't really one.

User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 21049
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Home, watching the NHL Playoffs

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by brian » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:34 am

CMU's AD resigned today to take a job running Florida State's booster program. Might see a lot of ADs jump ship here soon for the private sector, another year without college sports -- which looks likely -- is going to completely re-make college sports as we know it.
Image

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am

Certainly I'm not saying you should watch it to prove you aren't sexist. I don't watch the WNBA often, but I do watch a not insignificant amount of the UK women's team. It's definitely a different game, but I can still enjoy it even if it isn't one of my top sports to watch. But it's not me or you they're playing for, it's for their established fans and also the continuity is important. Because it isn't as popular, going 20 months without games could be a fatal decision.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

User avatar
BSF21
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4377
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am

HaulCitgo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:23 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:14 am
psunate77 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:18 am
HaulCitgo wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm
Why is the wnba going through with this anyway? And why are so many wnba players lesbians? Noticed she said wife. Not disparaging, legitimately curious... err wondering. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask this question. Is there an answer?

Why does their sexual preference matter?
Yea, and what's with all the Black guys in the NBA and NFL? And the Dominicans in the MLB?

See how training your line of thinking on one particular aspect of a person is problematic?
Also good questions. You don't need to shy away from that convo. The reason people don't like it is because it leads to a question of whether there are physical differences and many aren't comfortable with the inverse argument (then whites must be smarter because they are disproportionately successful in school/testing/economic class). We can't shut people down for asking. I should have been more tactful in bringing up a potentially controversial subject but the answer cant be youre a sexist/homophobe if you ask.
Well let's take that a bit deeper then if you feel like going down that road. What knowledge were you trying to glean from your original question of "why are so many female athletes lesbians"? I'd say first off, you're damn right you should be more tactful. Assuming everyone not in a hetro relationship is "a lesbian" trips my sensor right out of the gate. That said, let's say it's an honest mistake and you're bringing up a question. What is the deeper purpose of the question? To examine the inner qualities of these individuals? To upend the clearly unfair system that places LGBT female athletes above their straight counterparts? I don't see it. It's a novelty. You're curious about something that's none of your business because it's different from what you consider normal. It's OK to want to explore that, but where are we going to get in that discussion passing it around the opinions of mostly middle aged men on this board?

I'd rather create a conversation than blast you, but I'd be lying if I said comments like this don't make me angry. The sexual orientation of a celebrity or an athlete is no more pertinent to this than if you said "Isn't is strange how out of the 20 people on the USWNT, 15 of them said they prefer fish to chicken? What's with that?" -- That's why it comes off as a disingenuous "But I'm Just Asking!" thing. You're not. And therefore, yes, it's inherently homophobic or racist. That's what's lost in this discussion. There are nuances and levels of this. Just because you asked the question doesn't mean you're a bad person or going to march in the streets. It means you can do better. We all can.
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."

User avatar
BSF21
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4377
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:39 am

^ This coming from a guy who has learned a LOT about his own biases and shortcomings in the last couple years.
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:40 am

BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am
HaulCitgo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:23 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:14 am
psunate77 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:18 am
HaulCitgo wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm
Why is the wnba going through with this anyway? And why are so many wnba players lesbians? Noticed she said wife. Not disparaging, legitimately curious... err wondering. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask this question. Is there an answer?

Why does their sexual preference matter?
Yea, and what's with all the Black guys in the NBA and NFL? And the Dominicans in the MLB?

See how training your line of thinking on one particular aspect of a person is problematic?
Also good questions. You don't need to shy away from that convo. The reason people don't like it is because it leads to a question of whether there are physical differences and many aren't comfortable with the inverse argument (then whites must be smarter because they are disproportionately successful in school/testing/economic class). We can't shut people down for asking. I should have been more tactful in bringing up a potentially controversial subject but the answer cant be youre a sexist/homophobe if you ask.
Well let's take that a bit deeper then if you feel like going down that road. What knowledge were you trying to glean from your original question of "why are so many female athletes lesbians"? I'd say first off, you're damn right you should be more tactful. Assuming everyone not in a hetro relationship is "a lesbian" trips my sensor right out of the gate. That said, let's say it's an honest mistake and you're bringing up a question. What is the deeper purpose of the question? To examine the inner qualities of these individuals? To upend the clearly unfair system that places LGBT female athletes above their straight counterparts? I don't see it. It's a novelty. You're curious about something that's none of your business because it's different from what you consider normal. It's OK to want to explore that, but where are we going to get in that discussion passing it around the opinions of mostly middle aged men on this board?

Pretty friggin far I'd say. If we can change our viewpoints it goes a long long ways to changing the viewpoints of those that come behind us. And I think this board leans pretty heavily towards one side.

ETA: And while I have always been pretty accepting, going from accepting to actively calling it out has been a crucial part of my development as a father as my children mature. With my oldest if was more sexism and with the youngest its sexism and LGBT.

I'm not all the way there yet, but I think I'm heading in the right direction.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

User avatar
The Sybian
The Dude
Posts: 11880
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by The Sybian » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:45 am

I think there is a huge benefit having so many USWNT players being publicly out as gay. My daughter idolizes the USWNT players, and seeing Rapinoe giving an interview with her wife and the interview having nothing to do with their sexuality makes a huge difference in changing public perception. Now my daughter sees her hero has a wife, and she doesn't think anything of it. Soft politics at it's finest.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 19096
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by mister d » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:48 am

BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am
"Isn't is strange how out of the 20 people on the USWNT, 15 of them said they prefer fish to chicken? What's with that?"
[loudly exhales before walking away]
rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 19096
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by mister d » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:50 am

The Sybian wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:45 am
I think there is a huge benefit having so many USWNT players being publicly out as gay. My daughter idolizes the USWNT players, and seeing Rapinoe giving an interview with her wife and the interview having nothing to do with their sexuality makes a huge difference in changing public perception. Now my daughter sees her hero has a wife, and she doesn't think anything of it. Soft politics at it's finest.
Its really nothing to kids which is great. The only time its been noted is because in my youngest's class, there were two kids with the same semi-uncommon first name and both had hyphenated last names and both had two moms and its like they're the exact same isn't it???
rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

HaulCitgo
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by HaulCitgo » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:53 am

Ultimately my question is what I mentioned (and ab disputed) in terms of race. Is there some some causation between what makes you lgbtq and what makes you an elite athlete? Many would say yes and some might even offer scientific evidence (testeratone levels, etc) of which I don't know and why I asked. In truth, I do think there are physical differences between races that might help explain disproportionate participation. Not the primary factor but maybe helps explain east African distance runners and the physical appearance of certain cultures. But like the wnba question, people don't even want to have that discussion despite what is immediately apparent when spending 10 minutes in an elite girls hoops environment. That said, like race I think the majority of the reason is societal/comfort. To the extent there are mental/physical differences, they are celebrated and rewarded in an athletic context where they might be derided or punished in a different context. But I'll rightfully take the lumps for my initial comments.

User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 15854
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:00 am

I certainly can't speak to the physiology of LGBT being any different. There are probably cases that go either way. But anecdotally, I grew up in a small town and the gym teacher at my school was a legendary baseball and softball player for our high school. She was not openly out (this was 1991-95; she played in the early 80s) but everyone knew. The best player on our softball team was gay (She came out just after high school, but again everyone knew, sadly she committed suicide a few months ago). Maybe it's trending towards wanting to be around women, i shouldn't even speculate. But I know that there is a significant proportion of LGBT in women's sports, and I also know that it DOES NOT MATTER.

eta: I also can't speak to race issues wrt physiology. There are elite level athletes of all races. It seems naive to think there aren't pysiological differences (you mentioned distance runners, and I think it's been proven that they develop differently because of their environment and upbringing, but that does naturally then become part of the gene pool) but I don't think it's as simple as blacks better than whites at sports.
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

User avatar
The Sybian
The Dude
Posts: 11880
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by The Sybian » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:19 am

HaulCitgo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:53 am
Ultimately my question is what I mentioned (and ab disputed) in terms of race. Is there some some causation between what makes you lgbtq and what makes you an elite athlete? Many would say yes and some might even offer scientific evidence (testeratone levels, etc) of which I don't know and why I asked. In truth, I do think there are physical differences between races that might help explain disproportionate participation. Not the primary factor but maybe helps explain east African distance runners and the physical appearance of certain cultures. But like the wnba question, people don't even want to have that discussion despite what is immediately apparent when spending 10 minutes in an elite girls hoops environment. That said, like race I think the majority of the reason is societal/comfort. To the extent there are mental/physical differences, they are celebrated and rewarded in an athletic context where they might be derided or punished in a different context. But I'll rightfully take the lumps for my initial comments.
For what it's worth, I do see your question for how you intended it. I completely understand why others read it in a negative light, but I appreciate your pushing back to have the discussion. After Jimmy the Greek, it's difficult to have these discussions about race, sexuality, gender identity... So many potential landmines and ways to accidentally say the wrong thing. OTOH, I don't know that it really matters if there is a connection other than curiosity. Maybe there is some sort of connection between the genetics that make a female gay and have an interest or a talent for athletics.

I have a friend in town, one of the handful of black people, who loves firing up uncomfortable race conversations at parties. His attitude is that everyone has opinions, ideas and misconceptions, and we should get them all out in the open and discuss rather than creating tension. He tells people not to be afraid of saying the wrong thing or insulting him, and he likes finding misconceptions and correcting them. Seen some fascinating conversations come out of this, sometimes with well-meaning but ignorant people learning. He says he is always aware of being the only black person at a party, so why keep it quiet? I'm sure it probably makes some people uncomfortable, but you don't get progress without pushing through the uncomfortable conversations. It helps that he is incredibly charismatic, friendly and has no filter when drinking.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt

P.D.X.
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:31 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by P.D.X. » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:24 am

To entertain the question is to accept two fallacies: we know what the percentage of LGBTQ among women is in the general population (we don't), and that gay/straight is binary (it's not)

User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 21049
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Home, watching the NHL Playoffs

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by brian » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:34 am

If you guys want to get really real, I think the overwhelming numbers of Black athletes in football and basketball are often reflective of the social and financial disparities that Black people face.

Let's start with a general assumption that I think everyone will agree with -- to become a professional athlete you have to be exceptionally driven and spend most of your youth developing whatever physical gifts you were born with.

My understanding is there is not much difference at all between races with some rare exceptions like those mentioned as far as long-distance runners from east Africa, though even in those cases it's been found that the reason runners from those countries excel at long-distance running is less to do with the bodies of the runners themselves, but the conditions in which they train, which can be replicated in some other places (which is why most elite distance runners in the US train in places like Mammoth Lakes, CA or Flagstaff, AZ -- of course very few runners are born and train their entire lives in those places.

But anyway, if you assume all of that, then the most motivated of those with the best athletic gifts are going to the ones who excel and there seems to be two groups of Black athletes who commonly separate themselves from their peers at the earliest levels -- the very rich (i.e. usually the sons and daughters of elite athletes) or the disadvantaged financially which often includes the "Black middle class", but still a group that would often struggle to pay for college without the help of scholarships -- whether athletic or academic.
Image

User avatar
BSF21
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4377
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:36 am

The Sybian wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:19 am
HaulCitgo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:53 am
Ultimately my question is what I mentioned (and ab disputed) in terms of race. Is there some some causation between what makes you lgbtq and what makes you an elite athlete? Many would say yes and some might even offer scientific evidence (testeratone levels, etc) of which I don't know and why I asked. In truth, I do think there are physical differences between races that might help explain disproportionate participation. Not the primary factor but maybe helps explain east African distance runners and the physical appearance of certain cultures. But like the wnba question, people don't even want to have that discussion despite what is immediately apparent when spending 10 minutes in an elite girls hoops environment. That said, like race I think the majority of the reason is societal/comfort. To the extent there are mental/physical differences, they are celebrated and rewarded in an athletic context where they might be derided or punished in a different context. But I'll rightfully take the lumps for my initial comments.
For what it's worth, I do see your question for how you intended it. I completely understand why others read it in a negative light, but I appreciate your pushing back to have the discussion. After Jimmy the Greek, it's difficult to have these discussions about race, sexuality, gender identity... So many potential landmines and ways to accidentally say the wrong thing. OTOH, I don't know that it really matters if there is a connection other than curiosity. Maybe there is some sort of connection between the genetics that make a female gay and have an interest or a talent for athletics.

I have a friend in town, one of the handful of black people, who loves firing up uncomfortable race conversations at parties. His attitude is that everyone has opinions, ideas and misconceptions, and we should get them all out in the open and discuss rather than creating tension. He tells people not to be afraid of saying the wrong thing or insulting him, and he likes finding misconceptions and correcting them. Seen some fascinating conversations come out of this, sometimes with well-meaning but ignorant people learning. He says he is always aware of being the only black person at a party, so why keep it quiet? I'm sure it probably makes some people uncomfortable, but you don't get progress without pushing through the uncomfortable conversations. It helps that he is incredibly charismatic, friendly and has no filter when drinking.
A season or two ago on Survivor someone said "Doo-rag" in reference to the buffs they all wear to the one black guy on the island and it was a big flashpoint and they used it to bring up racism etc. I'll admit I've always called it that and it was in no way racial, just what I always assumed that kind of a hair wrap was called.

I also at one point remember saying "Polock" in a geography discussion once and someone gasped and said I couldn't say that. I was confused. Individual Polish person = Polock, right? I had no idea it was a slur. I assumed it was the same as calling an individual French person a Frenchman. I was corrected, told the correct term is "Pole" and went on to be mortified the rest of the day.

Moral is you gotta call shit out when you see it. It's the only way people learn.
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."

User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 5907
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Nonlinear FC » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:42 am

brian wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:34 am
If you guys want to get really real, I think the overwhelming numbers of Black athletes in football and basketball are often reflective of the social and financial disparities that Black people face.

Let's start with a general assumption that I think everyone will agree with -- to become a professional athlete you have to be exceptionally driven and spend most of your youth developing whatever physical gifts you were born with.

My understanding is there is not much difference at all between races with some rare exceptions like those mentioned as far as long-distance runners from east Africa, though even in those cases it's been found that the reason runners from those countries excel at long-distance running is less to do with the bodies of the runners themselves, but the conditions in which they train, which can be replicated in some other places (which is why most elite distance runners in the US train in places like Mammoth Lakes, CA or Flagstaff, AZ -- of course very few runners are born and train their entire lives in those places.

But anyway, if you assume all of that, then the most motivated of those with the best athletic gifts are going to the ones who excel and there seems to be two groups of Black athletes who commonly separate themselves from their peers at the earliest levels -- the very rich (i.e. usually the sons and daughters of elite athletes) or the disadvantaged financially which often includes the "Black middle class", but still a group that would often struggle to pay for college without the help of scholarships -- whether athletic or academic.
We've had a somewhat parallel conversation over the years on this board regarding soccer. In most (all?) other countries, most (not all) elite soccer players come from lower class - blue collar backgrounds. Pele, Messi, Rooney... List goes on and on. It's not a race thing, it's a "the only way out" thing.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 19096
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by mister d » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:56 am

And here its just small fast dorks who can't throw overhand.
rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

User avatar
bfj
Donny
Posts: 2613
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:59 am

BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:36 am
A season or two ago on Survivor someone said "Doo-rag" in reference to the buffs they all wear to the one black guy on the island and it was a big flashpoint and they used it to bring up racism etc. I'll admit I've always called it that and it was in no way racial, just what I always assumed that kind of a hair wrap was called.

I also at one point remember saying "Polock" in a geography discussion once and someone gasped and said I couldn't say that. I was confused. Individual Polish person = Polock, right? I had no idea it was a slur. I assumed it was the same as calling an individual French person a Frenchman. I was corrected, told the correct term is "Pole" and went on to be mortified the rest of the day.

Moral is you gotta call shit out when you see it. It's the only way people learn.
There is a sausage company in Maryland called Polack Johnny's. Language changes generationally and the landmines come out when one isn't aware that it has changed. The word retarded and the word handicapped come to mind. Both are considered somewhat verboten, but there is a generation that grew up using those words as common parts of conversation. Hell, the police still use handicapped when it comes to parking tickets/spaces/placards. It is unfair to judge people on the words they use without understanding the nature of how they are using the word. I bristle and will not hesitate to give someone shit for using the word retard in public, unless it is being used as it's dictionary definition. Using it any other way is meant as a slur against people with developmental disabilities and that's crap to me.
Enjoy every sandwich.

User avatar
BSF21
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4377
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:05 am

bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:59 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:36 am
A season or two ago on Survivor someone said "Doo-rag" in reference to the buffs they all wear to the one black guy on the island and it was a big flashpoint and they used it to bring up racism etc. I'll admit I've always called it that and it was in no way racial, just what I always assumed that kind of a hair wrap was called.

I also at one point remember saying "Polock" in a geography discussion once and someone gasped and said I couldn't say that. I was confused. Individual Polish person = Polock, right? I had no idea it was a slur. I assumed it was the same as calling an individual French person a Frenchman. I was corrected, told the correct term is "Pole" and went on to be mortified the rest of the day.

Moral is you gotta call shit out when you see it. It's the only way people learn.
There is a sausage company in Maryland called Polack Johnny's. Language changes generationally and the landmines come out when one isn't aware that it has changed. The word retarded and the word handicapped come to mind. Both are considered somewhat verboten, but there is a generation that grew up using those words as common parts of conversation. Hell, the police still use handicapped when it comes to parking tickets/spaces/placards. It is unfair to judge people on the words they use without understanding the nature of how they are using the word. I bristle and will not hesitate to give someone shit for using the word retard in public, unless it is being used as it's dictionary definition. Using it any other way is meant as a slur against people with developmental disabilities and that's crap to me.
I agree on the developmentally disabled side but I will say I feel like that one changes more frequently than I can keep up with. We always want to be better, but at the end of the day I certainly don't think someone who says "handicapped spot" and "r---d" are in the same universe. Same with "gay" and "f----t" or something of that nature. I know when people are trying and when people aren't and I think people should be recognized by trying to do what's right but informed on where things are headed.
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 19096
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by mister d » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:08 am

Having married into a family, I'm pretty sure "polack" is one of those they-can-say-it-but-you-can't words.
rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 19096
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by mister d » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 am

bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:59 am
It is unfair to judge people on the words they use without understanding the nature of how they are using the word.
This is a good point too. Half my life ago when I worked in a grocery store, the oldest woman alive came back in from the parking lot (which was definitely a serious effort) because she wanted to tell management about how nice "the colored boy" collecting carts had been to her. It drew a reaction afterwards, but it was laughter rather than anger, because her heart was obviously in the right place.
rass wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:20 am
I'm definitely known as "the boy who cried penis" in town.

User avatar
bfj
Donny
Posts: 2613
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am

BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:05 am
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:59 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:36 am
A season or two ago on Survivor someone said "Doo-rag" in reference to the buffs they all wear to the one black guy on the island and it was a big flashpoint and they used it to bring up racism etc. I'll admit I've always called it that and it was in no way racial, just what I always assumed that kind of a hair wrap was called.

I also at one point remember saying "Polock" in a geography discussion once and someone gasped and said I couldn't say that. I was confused. Individual Polish person = Polock, right? I had no idea it was a slur. I assumed it was the same as calling an individual French person a Frenchman. I was corrected, told the correct term is "Pole" and went on to be mortified the rest of the day.

Moral is you gotta call shit out when you see it. It's the only way people learn.
There is a sausage company in Maryland called Polack Johnny's. Language changes generationally and the landmines come out when one isn't aware that it has changed. The word retarded and the word handicapped come to mind. Both are considered somewhat verboten, but there is a generation that grew up using those words as common parts of conversation. Hell, the police still use handicapped when it comes to parking tickets/spaces/placards. It is unfair to judge people on the words they use without understanding the nature of how they are using the word. I bristle and will not hesitate to give someone shit for using the word retard in public, unless it is being used as it's dictionary definition. Using it any other way is meant as a slur against people with developmental disabilities and that's crap to me.
I agree on the developmentally disabled side but I will say I feel like that one changes more frequently than I can keep up with. We always want to be better, but at the end of the day I certainly don't think someone who says "handicapped spot" and "r---d" are in the same universe. Same with "gay" and "f----t" or something of that nature. I know when people are trying and when people aren't and I think people should be recognized by trying to do what's right but informed on where things are headed.
Handicapped and retarded are the same to me, but it all depends on the usage. If a person of a certain generation says to me "is your son retarded", I probably would let it go or gently correct them because I don't think they mean any disrespect. It is just the word that was used as a catch all for anyone with a developmental disability for a long time. Handicapped was anyone with a mobility impairment. If one of you used either as a descriptor for someone, I probably wouldn't correct as gently because you KNOW there are other words that are and should be used. I used handicapped spot as an example since it is still part of everyday language in certain fields.

Gay is an acceptable term, depending on usage. "That guy is gay" vs. That guy is SO gay".
Enjoy every sandwich.

User avatar
BSF21
Walter Sobchak
Posts: 4377
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 pm
Location: Playing one off the Monster

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:35 am

bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:05 am
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:59 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:36 am
A season or two ago on Survivor someone said "Doo-rag" in reference to the buffs they all wear to the one black guy on the island and it was a big flashpoint and they used it to bring up racism etc. I'll admit I've always called it that and it was in no way racial, just what I always assumed that kind of a hair wrap was called.

I also at one point remember saying "Polock" in a geography discussion once and someone gasped and said I couldn't say that. I was confused. Individual Polish person = Polock, right? I had no idea it was a slur. I assumed it was the same as calling an individual French person a Frenchman. I was corrected, told the correct term is "Pole" and went on to be mortified the rest of the day.

Moral is you gotta call shit out when you see it. It's the only way people learn.
There is a sausage company in Maryland called Polack Johnny's. Language changes generationally and the landmines come out when one isn't aware that it has changed. The word retarded and the word handicapped come to mind. Both are considered somewhat verboten, but there is a generation that grew up using those words as common parts of conversation. Hell, the police still use handicapped when it comes to parking tickets/spaces/placards. It is unfair to judge people on the words they use without understanding the nature of how they are using the word. I bristle and will not hesitate to give someone shit for using the word retard in public, unless it is being used as it's dictionary definition. Using it any other way is meant as a slur against people with developmental disabilities and that's crap to me.
I agree on the developmentally disabled side but I will say I feel like that one changes more frequently than I can keep up with. We always want to be better, but at the end of the day I certainly don't think someone who says "handicapped spot" and "r---d" are in the same universe. Same with "gay" and "f----t" or something of that nature. I know when people are trying and when people aren't and I think people should be recognized by trying to do what's right but informed on where things are headed.
Handicapped and retarded are the same to me, but it all depends on the usage. If a person of a certain generation says to me "is your son retarded", I probably would let it go or gently correct them because I don't think they mean any disrespect. It is just the word that was used as a catch all for anyone with a developmental disability for a long time. Handicapped was anyone with a mobility impairment. If one of you used either as a descriptor for someone, I probably wouldn't correct as gently because you KNOW there are other words that are and should be used. I used handicapped spot as an example since it is still part of everyday language in certain fields.

Gay is an acceptable term, depending on usage. "That guy is gay" vs. That guy is SO gay".
That’s good to know. Is developmentally disabled the correct nomenclature now? To my ignorant self that sounds almost worse but I trust your word. Obviously you should use the correct condition if you know it, but is there a catch all for “handicapped spot” that is better now?
Dances with Wolves (1) - BSF

"This place was rockin'," said BSF21.

"There is nothing ever uncommon about BSF21."

User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 5907
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Nonlinear FC » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:37 am

I will say this: There was an extremely successful and prolonged effort to "retire the R word." The same can not be said for handicapped.

The Feds went about trying to correct language in the early 90s, and the fact that we still say "handicap space" for parking is pretty nuts.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.

User avatar
bfj
Donny
Posts: 2613
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:13 pm

BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:35 am
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:05 am
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:59 am
BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:36 am
A season or two ago on Survivor someone said "Doo-rag" in reference to the buffs they all wear to the one black guy on the island and it was a big flashpoint and they used it to bring up racism etc. I'll admit I've always called it that and it was in no way racial, just what I always assumed that kind of a hair wrap was called.

I also at one point remember saying "Polock" in a geography discussion once and someone gasped and said I couldn't say that. I was confused. Individual Polish person = Polock, right? I had no idea it was a slur. I assumed it was the same as calling an individual French person a Frenchman. I was corrected, told the correct term is "Pole" and went on to be mortified the rest of the day.

Moral is you gotta call shit out when you see it. It's the only way people learn.
There is a sausage company in Maryland called Polack Johnny's. Language changes generationally and the landmines come out when one isn't aware that it has changed. The word retarded and the word handicapped come to mind. Both are considered somewhat verboten, but there is a generation that grew up using those words as common parts of conversation. Hell, the police still use handicapped when it comes to parking tickets/spaces/placards. It is unfair to judge people on the words they use without understanding the nature of how they are using the word. I bristle and will not hesitate to give someone shit for using the word retard in public, unless it is being used as it's dictionary definition. Using it any other way is meant as a slur against people with developmental disabilities and that's crap to me.
I agree on the developmentally disabled side but I will say I feel like that one changes more frequently than I can keep up with. We always want to be better, but at the end of the day I certainly don't think someone who says "handicapped spot" and "r---d" are in the same universe. Same with "gay" and "f----t" or something of that nature. I know when people are trying and when people aren't and I think people should be recognized by trying to do what's right but informed on where things are headed.
Handicapped and retarded are the same to me, but it all depends on the usage. If a person of a certain generation says to me "is your son retarded", I probably would let it go or gently correct them because I don't think they mean any disrespect. It is just the word that was used as a catch all for anyone with a developmental disability for a long time. Handicapped was anyone with a mobility impairment. If one of you used either as a descriptor for someone, I probably wouldn't correct as gently because you KNOW there are other words that are and should be used. I used handicapped spot as an example since it is still part of everyday language in certain fields.

Gay is an acceptable term, depending on usage. "That guy is gay" vs. That guy is SO gay".
That’s good to know. Is developmentally disabled the correct nomenclature now? To my ignorant self that sounds almost worse but I trust your word. Obviously you should use the correct condition if you know it, but is there a catch all for “handicapped spot” that is better now?
I wish I knew the current and correct answer. Developmental/Intellectual Disabilities is the term for Autism, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Tourette's Syndrome. Usually I go with "person first language" my son is a person with autism, but I know people with autism who prefer to be called autistic. Like you said, it is fluid and changes and is really hard to keep up with the correct terminology. That's where usage comes into play. Even disability is starting to change to "person with different abilities" to get rid of the negative connotation. BTW, someone with no disabilities is referred to as neuro typical these days. Don't go with "normal", oy.
Enjoy every sandwich.

User avatar
The Sybian
The Dude
Posts: 11880
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by The Sybian » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:08 pm

bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am


Handicapped and retarded are the same to me, but it all depends on the usage. If a person of a certain generation says to me "is your son retarded", I probably would let it go or gently correct them because I don't think they mean any disrespect. It is just the word that was used as a catch all for anyone with a developmental disability for a long time. Handicapped was anyone with a mobility impairment. If one of you used either as a descriptor for someone, I probably wouldn't correct as gently because you KNOW there are other words that are and should be used. I used handicapped spot as an example since it is still part of everyday language in certain fields.

Gay is an acceptable term, depending on usage. "That guy is gay" vs. That guy is SO gay".
And this is why these conversations are important, because I genuinely didn't known handicapped was verboten. I know there are better words to use, but I didn't know it was as inappropriate as the other words used. Good to know, and I will consciously avoid using the term. Not sure I actually say the work other than when saying handicapped spot, but is there a better term for the parking spots I should be using?

My grandparents immigrated from Poland, and I thought the proper word for Polish person was Polack. [As Jews, they never identified as Polish, as they were segregated in a Jewish shtetl]. I knew it was used in a derogatory way, but I thought it was also the proper term. Kind of like calling someone a Jew, depending on the inflection and tone, can be a slur or the proper description of someone's religion.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt

User avatar
wlu_lax6
The Dude
Posts: 7183
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:16 am

Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by wlu_lax6 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:41 pm

So the Virginia High School League (VHSL), which is the public school overseer of pretty much all competitions between schools (they cover sports, egaming, debate, music competitions, etc) just presented recommendations to be decided on the 27th

Options
1.) Leave sports in the current season by only golf and cross country would be allowed in the fall because they are lower to moderate contact
2.) Switch fall and spring. so fall would get, track and field, tennis, soccer, baseball, and softball. Fall sports would move to the spring. No boys or girsl lax
3.) all sports would remain but condensed interscholastic schedule would be adopted. Winter Sport (12/14-2/20), Fall Sports (2/15-5/1), Spring (4/12-6/26). This means 60% of a normal schedule.

Article points to the administrators liking 3 the best.

Post Reply