Coronavirus - All Sports

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:59 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:08 pm
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am


Handicapped and retarded are the same to me, but it all depends on the usage. If a person of a certain generation says to me "is your son retarded", I probably would let it go or gently correct them because I don't think they mean any disrespect. It is just the word that was used as a catch all for anyone with a developmental disability for a long time. Handicapped was anyone with a mobility impairment. If one of you used either as a descriptor for someone, I probably wouldn't correct as gently because you KNOW there are other words that are and should be used. I used handicapped spot as an example since it is still part of everyday language in certain fields.

Gay is an acceptable term, depending on usage. "That guy is gay" vs. That guy is SO gay".
And this is why these conversations are important, because I genuinely didn't known handicapped was verboten. I know there are better words to use, but I didn't know it was as inappropriate as the other words used. Good to know, and I will consciously avoid using the term. Not sure I actually say the work other than when saying handicapped spot, but is there a better term for the parking spots I should be using?

My grandparents immigrated from Poland, and I thought the proper word for Polish person was Polack. [As Jews, they never identified as Polish, as they were segregated in a Jewish shtetl]. I knew it was used in a derogatory way, but I thought it was also the proper term. Kind of like calling someone a Jew, depending on the inflection and tone, can be a slur or the proper description of someone's religion.
I think when referring to the placards, spots and citations, handicapped is still the word being used. A person who uses a wheelchair is a wheelchair user or someone with a mobility impairment. They aren't wheelchair bound, handicapped or handi-capable.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Nonlinear FC » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:20 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:08 pm
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am


Handicapped and retarded are the same to me, but it all depends on the usage. If a person of a certain generation says to me "is your son retarded", I probably would let it go or gently correct them because I don't think they mean any disrespect. It is just the word that was used as a catch all for anyone with a developmental disability for a long time. Handicapped was anyone with a mobility impairment. If one of you used either as a descriptor for someone, I probably wouldn't correct as gently because you KNOW there are other words that are and should be used. I used handicapped spot as an example since it is still part of everyday language in certain fields.

Gay is an acceptable term, depending on usage. "That guy is gay" vs. That guy is SO gay".
And this is why these conversations are important, because I genuinely didn't known handicapped was verboten. I know there are better words to use, but I didn't know it was as inappropriate as the other words used. Good to know, and I will consciously avoid using the term. Not sure I actually say the work other than when saying handicapped spot, but is there a better term for the parking spots I should be using?

My grandparents immigrated from Poland, and I thought the proper word for Polish person was Polack. [As Jews, they never identified as Polish, as they were segregated in a Jewish shtetl]. I knew it was used in a derogatory way, but I thought it was also the proper term. Kind of like calling someone a Jew, depending on the inflection and tone, can be a slur or the proper description of someone's religion.
Pretty deep into my 20s, I refrained from using the word Jew because I had inferred that it was derogatory. I'd grown up with lots of Jewish friends, attended Jewish weddings, bar/bat mitzvahs, Shivas, etc. One of my Jewish friends said something fairly innocuous about another person exhibiting stereotypical Jewish behavior, using the word Jew and I basically stated it was funny, but I couldn't get away with saying it. He thought I meant calling out a stereotype, but I explained that in addition, I couldn't use the word Jew... He set me straight.

But if I'm honest, I still don't use the word.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by brian » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:22 pm

Whoa, dropped a hard J there. (Sunny 4 Lyfe)
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Nonlinear FC » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:22 pm

bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:59 pm
The Sybian wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:08 pm
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am


Handicapped and retarded are the same to me, but it all depends on the usage. If a person of a certain generation says to me "is your son retarded", I probably would let it go or gently correct them because I don't think they mean any disrespect. It is just the word that was used as a catch all for anyone with a developmental disability for a long time. Handicapped was anyone with a mobility impairment. If one of you used either as a descriptor for someone, I probably wouldn't correct as gently because you KNOW there are other words that are and should be used. I used handicapped spot as an example since it is still part of everyday language in certain fields.

Gay is an acceptable term, depending on usage. "That guy is gay" vs. That guy is SO gay".
And this is why these conversations are important, because I genuinely didn't known handicapped was verboten. I know there are better words to use, but I didn't know it was as inappropriate as the other words used. Good to know, and I will consciously avoid using the term. Not sure I actually say the work other than when saying handicapped spot, but is there a better term for the parking spots I should be using?

My grandparents immigrated from Poland, and I thought the proper word for Polish person was Polack. [As Jews, they never identified as Polish, as they were segregated in a Jewish shtetl]. I knew it was used in a derogatory way, but I thought it was also the proper term. Kind of like calling someone a Jew, depending on the inflection and tone, can be a slur or the proper description of someone's religion.
I think when referring to the placards, spots and citations, handicapped is still the word being used. A person who uses a wheelchair is a wheelchair user or someone with a mobility impairment. They aren't wheelchair bound, handicapped or handi-capable.
I feel like handi-capable is the rough equivalent of complementing a black person for being articulate. I mean, really rough comparison, but it's that condescension.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by sancarlos » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:09 pm

mister d wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 am
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:59 am
It is unfair to judge people on the words they use without understanding the nature of how they are using the word.
This is a good point too. Half my life ago when I worked in a grocery store, the oldest woman alive came back in from the parking lot (which was definitely a serious effort) because she wanted to tell management about how nice "the colored boy" collecting carts had been to her. It drew a reaction afterwards, but it was laughter rather than anger, because her heart was obviously in the right place.
My parents are 85 and 80, and, without anger or mean intention, my father will use as descriptors - oriental, colored, retarded, and queer.

My grandparents were worse. They were simple farm folk from Saskatchewan who rarely encountered minorities. One of my most cringe-inducing memories occurred on a summer afternoon in the 1970s, when I was sixteen and driving very slowly, windows down with my grandmother in the downtown shopping district of my hometown. She saw an African-American guy on the sidewalk, not 10 yards from us, and clear as a bell for several people within earshot, said, "Oh, look. A darkie!" Jeebus, I wanted to crawl under my seat in embarrassment, but she was oblivious.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm

Holy shit there's some pretty serious word policing going on here.

"Handicapped" is a perfectly legitimate description of a person with a handicap. There is nothing negative implied, except for the fact that the person has a handicap, i.e., a mental or physical impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activity. If you are with someone and you know he or she would prefer you not use that word, then by all means don't use it, out of courtesy. But there is no reason why we should feel ashamed about using the word handicapped to refer to a person who has a handicap.

There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.

There's also nothing wrong with wondering whether there is some genetic explanation for the fact that it has been decades since any finalist in the Olympic 100-meter dash was *not* descended from West Africa. Or for the fact that people from or descended from East Africa dominate long-distance running. Again, no slurs are involved and nothing negative is implied by the question.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:37 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm
Holy shit there's some pretty serious word policing going on here.

"Handicapped" is a perfectly legitimate description of a person with a handicap. There is nothing negative implied, except for the fact that the person has a handicap, i.e., a mental or physical impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activity. If you are with someone and you know he or she would prefer you not use that word, then by all means don't use it, out of courtesy. But there is no reason why we should feel ashamed about using the word handicapped to refer to a person who has a handicap.

There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.

There's also nothing wrong with wondering whether there is some genetic explanation for the fact that it has been decades since any finalist in the Olympic 100-meter dash was *not* descended from West Africa. Or for the fact that people from or descended from East Africa dominate long-distance running. Again, no slurs are involved and nothing negative is implied by the question.
If the person doesn’t like the word handicap what makes you think others don’t also have the same dislike for it? So why use a word that may be an offensive term to the population that it demeans (whether you think it does or not)? Saying someone has a disability is just as easy and doesn’t make you sound like a person who doesn’t care who they offend.

Handicap implies (by definition) that the person will struggle to succeed or progress. That’s not always the case with people with physical or mental disabilities. So the word doesn’t really apply anymore. Except for parking spots and parking citations.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:40 pm

bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:37 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm
Holy shit there's some pretty serious word policing going on here.

"Handicapped" is a perfectly legitimate description of a person with a handicap. There is nothing negative implied, except for the fact that the person has a handicap, i.e., a mental or physical impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activity. If you are with someone and you know he or she would prefer you not use that word, then by all means don't use it, out of courtesy. But there is no reason why we should feel ashamed about using the word handicapped to refer to a person who has a handicap.

There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.

There's also nothing wrong with wondering whether there is some genetic explanation for the fact that it has been decades since any finalist in the Olympic 100-meter dash was *not* descended from West Africa. Or for the fact that people from or descended from East Africa dominate long-distance running. Again, no slurs are involved and nothing negative is implied by the question.
If the person doesn’t like the word handicap what makes you think others don’t also have the same dislike for it? So why use a word that may be an offensive term to the population that it demeans (whether you think it does or not)? Saying someone has a disability is just as easy and doesn’t make you sound like a person who doesn’t care who they offend.

Handicap implies (by definition) that the person will struggle to succeed or progress. That’s not always the case with people with physical or mental disabilities. So the word doesn’t really apply anymore. Except for parking spots and parking citations.
I guess because there's a limit to how much we should have to twist ourselves in knots to avoid possible offense for the slightest of reasons?

Disabled means you lack abilities. That is far worse than having a handicap. So once everyone starts using the word "disability," we'll be told that is offensive.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:45 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm


There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.

There's not. But when you frame it to belittle the WNBA at first and then go straight into that line of questioning it deserves some attention. I think citgo didn't neccesarily mean it badly, and admitted some inherent sexism. The questions about participation are fine. That's all part of a discussion. But I don't think there's anything wrong with calling it out, either.

And I think it does matter that middle aged white guys start holding each other accountable or trying to understand the other viewpoint. It matters very, very much.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:50 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm

There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.
Then why does someone's sexual orientation seem to be the only "legitimate matter of curiosity" anyone seems to give 2 shits about? It's about not making another human being feel marginalized because of one aspect of their life. Imagine if Lebron hit a game winning shot and the person interviewing him says "how does it feel to have the most documented wins in history of anyone who fucks their wife 3 times a week?". It's irrelevant and belittling. If someone wants to talk about their sexuality, let them broach it. People's fixation on it is hurtful.
Last edited by BSF21 on Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:51 pm

I certainly agree with your second paragraph. We should all be holding ourselves and each other accountable when we do things that are not okay. My point is that I don't think Citgo did anything that wasn't okay, so there's nothing to be held accountable for or called out for.

I didn't read anything belittling in Citgo's statement. I certainly don't see anything in it that is worthy of being labeled homophobic, i.e., implying something negative about LGBTQ persons or mocking them or using them for sport.

Maybe I just misunderstood though.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:54 pm

I'm not trying to relitigate, but this seems demeaning and dismissive because he doesn't see as much value in the sport.

HaulCitgo wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm
Why is the wnba going through with this anyway? And why are so many wnba players lesbians? Noticed she said wife. Not disparaging, legitimately curious... err wondering. I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask this question. Is there an answer?
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm

BSF21 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:50 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm

There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.
Then why does someone's sexual orientation seem to be the only "legitimate matter of curiosity" anyone seems to give 2 shits about? It's about not making another human being feel marginalized because of one aspect of their life. Imagine if Lebron hit a game winning shot and the person interviewing him says "how does it feel to have the most documented wins in history of anyone who fuck's their wife 3 times a week?". It's irrelevant and belittling. If someone wants to talk about their sexuality, let them broach it. People's fixation on it is hurtful.
I guess I don't agree that anyone here was making someone's orientation the only legitimate matter of curiosity. And somehow I doubt Ms. Delle Donne is likely to find her way here and be made to feel marginalized. Over the past decade or more, we have had a great deal of public attention to the fact of people being LGBTQ, the discrimination and challenges these folks have faced historically and today, and efforts to protect and expand their rights against discrimination and their right to full participation in society. It's a matter of public interest. I don't see how asking about lesbianism among female athletes shows any more fixation on anything than celebrating the recent Supreme Court rulings.

(By the way, her spouse is listed on her Wikipedia page.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by DSafetyGuy » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:59 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm
I guess I don't agree that anyone here was making someone's orientation the only legitimate matter of curiosity. And somehow I doubt Ms. Delle Donne is likely to find her way here and be made to feel marginalized. Over the past decade or more, we have had a great deal of public attention to the fact of people being LGBTQ, the discrimination and challenges these folks have faced historically and today, and efforts to protect and expand their rights against discrimination and their right to full participation in society. It's a matter of public interest. I don't see how asking about lesbianism among female athletes shows any more fixation on anything than celebrating the recent Supreme Court rulings.

(By the way, her spouse is listed on her Wikipedia page.)
But there are lots of people who could find their way here and feel marginalized. And maybe there are some posters who do feel marginalized by it.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:10 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm
I guess I don't agree that anyone here was making someone's orientation the only legitimate matter of curiosity. And somehow I doubt Ms. Delle Donne is likely to find her way here and be made to feel marginalized. Over the past decade or more, we have had a great deal of public attention to the fact of people being LGBTQ, the discrimination and challenges these folks have faced historically and today, and efforts to protect and expand their rights against discrimination and their right to full participation in society. It's a matter of public interest. I don't see how asking about lesbianism among female athletes shows any more fixation on anything than celebrating the recent Supreme Court rulings.

(By the way, her spouse is listed on her Wikipedia page.)
But there are lots of people who could find their way here and feel marginalized. And maybe there are some posters who do feel marginalized by it.
That's a really good point. It's not just about Delle Donne.

But I guess I just don't see how anyone would feel particularly marginalized by the question Citgo asked using the words that he did. If he had used the d-word, or said that the WNBA is dumb because it's just a bunch of lesbians, or whatever, sure.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:27 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:40 pm
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:37 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm
Holy shit there's some pretty serious word policing going on here.

"Handicapped" is a perfectly legitimate description of a person with a handicap. There is nothing negative implied, except for the fact that the person has a handicap, i.e., a mental or physical impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activity. If you are with someone and you know he or she would prefer you not use that word, then by all means don't use it, out of courtesy. But there is no reason why we should feel ashamed about using the word handicapped to refer to a person who has a handicap.

There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.

There's also nothing wrong with wondering whether there is some genetic explanation for the fact that it has been decades since any finalist in the Olympic 100-meter dash was *not* descended from West Africa. Or for the fact that people from or descended from East Africa dominate long-distance running. Again, no slurs are involved and nothing negative is implied by the question.
If the person doesn’t like the word handicap what makes you think others don’t also have the same dislike for it? So why use a word that may be an offensive term to the population that it demeans (whether you think it does or not)? Saying someone has a disability is just as easy and doesn’t make you sound like a person who doesn’t care who they offend.

Handicap implies (by definition) that the person will struggle to succeed or progress. That’s not always the case with people with physical or mental disabilities. So the word doesn’t really apply anymore. Except for parking spots and parking citations.
I guess because there's a limit to how much we should have to twist ourselves in knots to avoid possible offense for the slightest of reasons?

Disabled means you lack abilities. That is far worse than having a handicap. So once everyone starts using the word "disability," we'll be told that is offensive.
And if people with a disabilities tell me that term is offensive, I’d find another word to use. It seems like it is an inconvenience to you to have to think of how other people feel.

I think the elimination of the word handicap in most of society pretty much indicates that your on the other side of the handicap vs disability debate. Having a disability doesn’t mean you won’t have success or struggle to progress. Handicap does. Regardless of what you think.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:29 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:10 pm
DSafetyGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm
I guess I don't agree that anyone here was making someone's orientation the only legitimate matter of curiosity. And somehow I doubt Ms. Delle Donne is likely to find her way here and be made to feel marginalized. Over the past decade or more, we have had a great deal of public attention to the fact of people being LGBTQ, the discrimination and challenges these folks have faced historically and today, and efforts to protect and expand their rights against discrimination and their right to full participation in society. It's a matter of public interest. I don't see how asking about lesbianism among female athletes shows any more fixation on anything than celebrating the recent Supreme Court rulings.

(By the way, her spouse is listed on her Wikipedia page.)
But there are lots of people who could find their way here and feel marginalized. And maybe there are some posters who do feel marginalized by it.
That's a really good point. It's not just about Delle Donne.

But I guess I just don't see how anyone would feel particularly marginalized by the question Citgo asked using the words that he did. If he had used the d-word, or said that the WNBA is dumb because it's just a bunch of lesbians, or whatever, sure.
So if you can’t figure out how it could be offensive, it can’t be offensive to others?
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by psunate77 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:34 pm

Boy this thread has gone to shit..

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Pruitt » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:20 pm

psunate77 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:34 pm
Boy this thread has gone to shit..
Let's focus on what's important - the next Sumo basho (tournament) starts Sunday.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm

bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:29 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:10 pm
DSafetyGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm
I guess I don't agree that anyone here was making someone's orientation the only legitimate matter of curiosity. And somehow I doubt Ms. Delle Donne is likely to find her way here and be made to feel marginalized. Over the past decade or more, we have had a great deal of public attention to the fact of people being LGBTQ, the discrimination and challenges these folks have faced historically and today, and efforts to protect and expand their rights against discrimination and their right to full participation in society. It's a matter of public interest. I don't see how asking about lesbianism among female athletes shows any more fixation on anything than celebrating the recent Supreme Court rulings.

(By the way, her spouse is listed on her Wikipedia page.)
But there are lots of people who could find their way here and feel marginalized. And maybe there are some posters who do feel marginalized by it.
That's a really good point. It's not just about Delle Donne.

But I guess I just don't see how anyone would feel particularly marginalized by the question Citgo asked using the words that he did. If he had used the d-word, or said that the WNBA is dumb because it's just a bunch of lesbians, or whatever, sure.
So if you can’t figure out how it could be offensive, it can’t be offensive to others?
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.

And if handicap means someone will struggle to do something, disabled means they lack the ability to do it at all. Which is better?

Plus, folks with a handicap *are* in fact limited in certain ways. They do face additional obstacles. That’s the whole point! That’s why they are entitled - legally and morally - to accommodations.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by govmentchedda » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:58 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:40 pm
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:37 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:25 pm
Holy shit there's some pretty serious word policing going on here.

"Handicapped" is a perfectly legitimate description of a person with a handicap. There is nothing negative implied, except for the fact that the person has a handicap, i.e., a mental or physical impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activity. If you are with someone and you know he or she would prefer you not use that word, then by all means don't use it, out of courtesy. But there is no reason why we should feel ashamed about using the word handicapped to refer to a person who has a handicap.

There's nothing wrong with asking why so many female athletes appear to be gay or lesbian or homosexual - or whether how percentage of female athletes who are LGBTQ compares to the percentage of females in the general population who are LGBTQ. None of those words are slurs, and nothing about the question implies anything negative. It's a legitimate matter of curiosity. No, it doesn't "matter", but for fuck's sake, nothing we discuss on this board matters.

There's also nothing wrong with wondering whether there is some genetic explanation for the fact that it has been decades since any finalist in the Olympic 100-meter dash was *not* descended from West Africa. Or for the fact that people from or descended from East Africa dominate long-distance running. Again, no slurs are involved and nothing negative is implied by the question.
If the person doesn’t like the word handicap what makes you think others don’t also have the same dislike for it? So why use a word that may be an offensive term to the population that it demeans (whether you think it does or not)? Saying someone has a disability is just as easy and doesn’t make you sound like a person who doesn’t care who they offend.

Handicap implies (by definition) that the person will struggle to succeed or progress. That’s not always the case with people with physical or mental disabilities. So the word doesn’t really apply anymore. Except for parking spots and parking citations.
I guess because there's a limit to how much we should have to twist ourselves in knots to avoid possible offense for the slightest of reasons?

Disabled means you lack abilities. That is far worse than having a handicap. So once everyone starts using the word "disability," we'll be told that is offensive.
Been driving all day, so this has probably already been hashed out, but let me add this: I often get confused about the disabled/handicapped nomenclature as well. I know that one is passe and the other not, but if you'd put a gun to my head before this discussion I would not have known which one was ok and which one was not.

That being said, I strongly disagree with your first paragraph. I believe we need to listen to those who tell us they're offended and change our words. If you can't change, especially as a white dude, expect ridicule, and lots of it. Hanging on to this idea that the world shouldn't change, and we shouldn't change in it, is wrong in my opinion. I used to want to learn the things, and know them, and be set, but that isn't the way this works, and not the way it should. We realize what's wrong and we actively change it for the good of all of us, especially the most put upon.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:10 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm
bfj wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:29 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:10 pm
DSafetyGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:59 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm
I guess I don't agree that anyone here was making someone's orientation the only legitimate matter of curiosity. And somehow I doubt Ms. Delle Donne is likely to find her way here and be made to feel marginalized. Over the past decade or more, we have had a great deal of public attention to the fact of people being LGBTQ, the discrimination and challenges these folks have faced historically and today, and efforts to protect and expand their rights against discrimination and their right to full participation in society. It's a matter of public interest. I don't see how asking about lesbianism among female athletes shows any more fixation on anything than celebrating the recent Supreme Court rulings.

(By the way, her spouse is listed on her Wikipedia page.)
But there are lots of people who could find their way here and feel marginalized. And maybe there are some posters who do feel marginalized by it.
That's a really good point. It's not just about Delle Donne.

But I guess I just don't see how anyone would feel particularly marginalized by the question Citgo asked using the words that he did. If he had used the d-word, or said that the WNBA is dumb because it's just a bunch of lesbians, or whatever, sure.
So if you can’t figure out how it could be offensive, it can’t be offensive to others?
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.

And if handicap means someone will struggle to do something, disabled means they lack the ability to do it at all. Which is better?

Plus, folks with a handicap *are* in fact limited in certain ways. They do face additional obstacles. That’s the whole point! That’s why they are entitled - legally and morally - to accommodations.
By your definition a person with learning disabilities can’t learn at all? That’s not the case though. They may struggle with learning, but can certainly succeed with effort and perseverance. It’s the Americans with Disabilities Act, not the Americans with Handicap Act that gives those with disabilities equal rights.

You can say whatever you want, I don’t want you to feel policed. I’m just telling you what the current nomenclature is that is being used in the community. I’m always shocked at how some people react to having to change the words they use and make it out like they are being oppressed.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Nonlinear FC » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:05 am

FWIW, my wife works in the public policy space and she's been on me for years about the use of the word handicapped. She was kind of surprised I brought it up, because her take is that I haven't used it incorrectly for many years.

But the point is that it's really not up for debate, at least among educators and public policy folks.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by mister d » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:10 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.
Lets say just one person gets genuinely upset over you using the term ... isn't that alone enough to make you avoid it? You're taking the Redskins approach where one side liking something is presented as equal ground against someone else being hurt by it.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by A_B » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:55 am

Image
The wife just accidentally called you. “Accidentally”. Sorry

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:26 am

mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:10 am
Lets say just one person gets genuinely upset over you using the term ... isn't that alone enough to make you avoid it? You're taking the Redskins approach where one side liking something is presented as equal ground against someone else being hurt by it.
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:40 pm
I guess because there's a limit to how much we should have to twist ourselves in knots to avoid possible offense for the slightest of reasons?
He has answered that, twice. Don't burden him with limiting the language he can use just because one group may take offense. That's THEIR problem, not HIS problem. I mean, I guess crippled wouldn't be wrong either by his logic, or gimp, or retard. It really isn't about political correctness, it is about respecting other people wishes when you refer to a cohort they belong to and you don't.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:31 am

bfj wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:26 am
mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:10 am
Lets say just one person gets genuinely upset over you using the term ... isn't that alone enough to make you avoid it? You're taking the Redskins approach where one side liking something is presented as equal ground against someone else being hurt by it.
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:40 pm
I guess because there's a limit to how much we should have to twist ourselves in knots to avoid possible offense for the slightest of reasons?
He has answered that, twice. Don't burden him with limiting the language he can use just because one group may take offense. That's THEIR problem, not HIS problem. I mean, I guess crippled wouldn't be wrong either by his logic, or gimp, or retard. It really isn't about political correctness, it is about respecting other people wishes when you refer to a cohort they belong to and you don't.
Gimp cripple and retard are actual slurs or have a history of being used as such.

Handicapped, i.e., “having a handicap”, i.e., “having a physical or mental limitation that interferes with certain functions or abilities,” is not.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:34 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:31 am
bfj wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:26 am
mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:10 am
Lets say just one person gets genuinely upset over you using the term ... isn't that alone enough to make you avoid it? You're taking the Redskins approach where one side liking something is presented as equal ground against someone else being hurt by it.
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:40 pm
I guess because there's a limit to how much we should have to twist ourselves in knots to avoid possible offense for the slightest of reasons?
He has answered that, twice. Don't burden him with limiting the language he can use just because one group may take offense. That's THEIR problem, not HIS problem. I mean, I guess crippled wouldn't be wrong either by his logic, or gimp, or retard. It really isn't about political correctness, it is about respecting other people wishes when you refer to a cohort they belong to and you don't.
Gimp cripple and retard are actual slurs or have a history of being used as such.

Handicapped, i.e., “having a handicap”, i.e., “having a physical or mental limitation that interferes with certain functions or abilities,” is not.
Again, that really isn't something you get to decide. But, I'm beating a handicapped horse here.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by mister d » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:36 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:31 am
Gimp cripple and retard are actual slurs or have a history of being used as such.
Do you not realize someone in the 90s was doing exactly what you are now by pointing out "they are, factually, mentally retarded. Its just a literal descriptor."
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:36 am

mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:10 am
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.
Lets say just one person gets genuinely upset over you using the term ... isn't that alone enough to make you avoid it? You're taking the Redskins approach where one side liking something is presented as equal ground against someone else being hurt by it.
One person being genuinely upset is a good reason to avoid its use in communication with that person. But no, one person being upset doesn’t have a right to control all my other communications.

Redskin is a slur *and* has a history of being used as such *and* is being used in a demeaning way *and* is used in connection with demeaning visual caricatures *and* is being used in an intrusively public way. Handicapped isn’t.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by The Sybian » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:37 am

bfj wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:34 am


But, I'm beating a handicapped horse here.
Great, you just triggered the PETA Batsignal.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by Steve of phpBB » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:38 am

mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:36 am
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:31 am
Gimp cripple and retard are actual slurs or have a history of being used as such.
Do you not realize someone in the 90s was doing exactly what you are now by pointing out "they are, factually, mentally retarded. Its just a literal descriptor."
Sure. But it was only accurate for some who were targeted with that name, and it has a history of being used as a slur. (Teens still use it that way, sadly.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by bfj » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:40 am

Steve of phpBB wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:36 am
mister d wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:10 am
Steve of phpBB wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm
I’m saying that the mere fact that others can find a way to claim offense at something doesn’t mean they get to control the language I use.
Lets say just one person gets genuinely upset over you using the term ... isn't that alone enough to make you avoid it? You're taking the Redskins approach where one side liking something is presented as equal ground against someone else being hurt by it.
One person being genuinely upset is a good reason to avoid its use in communication with that person. But no, one person being upset doesn’t have a right to control all my other communications.

Redskin is a slur *and* has a history of being used as such *and* is being used in a demeaning way *and* is used in connection with demeaning visual caricatures *and* is being used in an intrusively public way. Handicapped isn’t.
So offending one person is enough for you to change, but 100,000 people respectfully asking you to use another term won't change you?
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:44 am

So again, the crux of this I'm seeing is you don't want to feel inconvenienced or controlled by someone pushing you to alter your language because you're comfortable with it and they should just get with it, right?

So something that I'm guessing comes up in your day to day life....I'm going to guess less than weekly...is the hill you want to take because you're worried eventually it'll go too far and further inconvenience you by having to learn additional terminology. Instead of of just taking the high road of respect for how another (and lets be honest, generally disadvantaged) person in society feels best about being addressed?

It's a weird hill.

Just be kind and helpful to others. We all know who you are here on this board. You're good people. Why this hill?
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by L-Jam3 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:45 pm

So... the NFL isn't going to have any COVID safety protocol. At least they're staying on brand.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by govmentchedda » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:54 pm

L-Jam3 wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:45 pm
So... the NFL isn't going to have any COVID safety protocol. At least they're staying on brand.
So unbelievably Republican of them. Or rather, so believably Republican of them.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by rass » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:55 pm

I felt aswirl with warm secretions.

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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by govmentchedda » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:04 pm

I'd say it's less than a 5% chance the NFL gets through a full season this year.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by L-Jam3 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:14 pm

They're completely in denial. I forget who said it here, but it was evident when they released the schedule. Someone laid it out like this and I agree whole-heartedly:

If they didn't care about looking weak, they would've scheduled the inter-conference games for the first four weeks, then the same-conference games weeks 5 to 10. Half the league gets a bye week 8, the other half week 9. Then weeks 11 through 17 just be divisional games. That way, if they had to cancel games, they could've just cut out the inter-conference games first, then the out of division games. That would have given every team schedule integrity for the purpose of playoff seeding.

Like you said, how very Republican of them.
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Re: Coronavirus - All Sports

Post by BSF21 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:28 pm

govmentchedda wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:04 pm
I'd say it's less than a 5% chance the NFL gets through a full season this year.
I wish I could bet this line because it's a stone cold lock.
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