The last dance

[EdRomero]

Yeah. Young Shaq with Penny and Horace was a great team, and Hakeem was a legendary all-time great those seasons they won, and I think even with Jordan they Bulls would struggle to beat the Rockets. Hell, I remember the bulls struggling to contain a broken Kevin McHale in the early 90s. Hakeem would have been a problem for them.

[HaulCitgo]

The Bulls don't lose if Jordan isn't playing baseball 3/4 of the season.

[Joe K]

Yeah. Young Shaq with Penny and Horace was a great team, and Hakeem was a legendary all-time great those seasons they won, and I think even with Jordan they Bulls would struggle to beat the Rockets. Hell, I remember the bulls struggling to contain a broken Kevin McHale in the early 90s. Hakeem would have been a problem for them.

Some podcasts I’ve listened to lately have pointed out that after the Rockets traded for Drexler in the middle of that season, they started playing four-out offense with Hakeem as the only interior player. Now every NBA team plays that way but it was very, very uncommon in 1995. The Rockets beat four really, really strong teams that postseason and I wonder if it’s in part because they were ahead of their time strategically.

[Joe K]

The Bulls don't lose if Jordan isn't playing baseball 3/4 of the season.

I don’t know about that. As I pointed out, Jordan’s playoff numbers were very much back to normal for him even though he was definitely rusty in the regular season. They didn’t have Rodman yet so their frontline was very weak. Give minutes from Horace/Rodman to Will Perdue and Bill Wennington and it’s a pretty big dropoff.

ETA: Jordan averaged 31.5 ppg in the 1995 playoffs and scored at a more efficient rate than he did in 3 of the 6 title seasons. I know the mystique is that he was literally unbeatable and they only lost because he was rusty, but I just don’t think his supporting cast was good enough that season.

[EdRomero]

Man, if BJ Armstrong didn't talk trash after beating the Bulls in game one of round two, there's no way the Bulls would have been motivated to beat the Hornets.

[A_B]

Man, if BJ Armstrong didn't talk trash after beating the Bulls in game one of round two, there's no way the Bulls would have been motivated to beat the Hornets.

Those weren’t their grandchildren’s murder hornets.

[DaveInSeattle]

For those interested, someone has been putting together a playlist of all the 80's-90's hip-hop that's been on the soundtrack...

The Last Dance

[DaveInSeattle]

I totally forgot that Pippen’s dunk on (in) Ewing was during the non-MJ year.

Also I can’t see those awful Sonics unis (the only bad ones they ever had) without thinking of this clip which I watched roughly 800 times:

I've only watched this about a bazillion times since July 2, 2008.



but it doesn't include the best Kemp highlight...the dunk over Alton Lister...

[mister d]

This came up on twitter, but there's something incongruous about a legit rap soundtrack on a Jordan doc. Do you think he's ever intentionally listened to 36 Chambers all the way through, let alone Mobb Deep or Camp Lo? Especially for someone proud to stand up against standing up for social issues, it just seems sorta fucked up.

[HaulCitgo]

Wu Tang might have been for the children but not so much for morality or justice. Not quite understanding the point.

[mister d]

I have trouble imagining 1994 GZA saying he's going to stay out of a social debate because Republicans buy CDs too. Feels like clear alignment if different use of platform.

[Giff]

Womp womp post alert, but watching the end of this series will be very hard knowing how much my Dad enjoyed watching those Bulls teams.

[HaulCitgo]

I have trouble imagining 1994 GZA saying he's going to stay out of a social debate because Republicans buy CDs too. Feels like clear alignment if different use of platform.

Definitely correct but any points they gain for that more than offset by glorification of drugs, violence, misogyny. Just listen to that album man. Dope wars. Cream get the money.

Eta... And I loved Wu Tang. The sexiest chick I knew at 18 was a jersey girl and I got her to want me with a cassingle of method man (or maybe something else but definitely that album) in 1993. Bought it on Franklin Street and you woulda thought it was Luther Vandross.

[DSafetyGuy]

Michael Jordan may be the pettiest little man on earth. Listening to "Hang Up and Listen" this week was a fun way to back up that assessment.

Jordan first three games in 1996 against the Sonics - 29/63 FG, 30 FT, 93 points, 15 assists, 7 turnovers. Bulls scored 92 or more in each game.
Jordan last three games in 1996 against the Sonics - 22/60 FG, 26 FT, 71 points, 10 assists, 11 turnovers. Bulls scored 87 or less in each game.

Nope, no trouble with Payton at all (although he shot 50% while the rest of the Bulls were trash in Game 5). Went 14-1 in the first 15 playoff games, then dropped two after Payton started guarding him and was 5/19 with 5 turnovers in the clincher.

The way "win at all costs" players like Jordan and Kobe says a lot about how shitty our capitalist culture is.

[mister d]

Definitely correct but any points they gain for that more than offset by glorification of drugs, violence, misogyny. Just listen to that album man. Dope wars. Cream get the money.

Is it worse to reflect that life or actively not care?

[Ryan]

A little crossover from the ABA question in last week's Swampcrash - Bobby Jones holds the record for most games played against Michael Jordan without a loss - he was 6-0.

Some people who played against Jordan a bunch and NEVER won...

Rumeal Robinson 0-13
Pooh Richardson 0-16
Chris Gatling 0-16
Andrew Lang 0-17

SHERMAN DOUGLAS 0-30!

[sancarlos]

Very proud that I picked out Bobby Jones’s picture.

[cerrano]

For those interested, someone has been putting together a playlist of all the 80's-90's hip-hop that's been on the soundtrack...

The Last Dance

This play list was right up my alley, and then it got even better when they threw in the Soul Coughing track. I’m not gonna be shocked if I’m completely on my own with this opinion.

[Joe K]

For those interested, someone has been putting together a playlist of all the 80's-90's hip-hop that's been on the soundtrack...

The Last Dance

This play list was right up my alley, and then it got even better when they threw in the Soul Coughing track. I’m not gonna be shocked if I’m completely on my own with this opinion.

I played many hours of Gran Turismo 2 on Playstation and that Soul Coughing song was one of the songs they played during races. I wouldn't say I like or dislike the song, but I definitely associate it with staring at the TV in my parents' basement while playing video games. That association was immediately triggered when it came on during the MJ documentary.

[Pruitt]

Finished 6 episodes, and while it is really well done, I'm getting a bit bored of it.

Great to walk down memory lane, but it is getting pretty repetitive.

[Sabo]

BRB, gonna create a You bitch. Fuck you. account on the Swamp.

[DSafetyGuy]

The capping moment, for me, was when Jordan explained how everyone would have come back for one more run. Last person he says would return is Pippen.

Yet, Pippen, who has been in pretty much every episode... not answering.

[Nonlinear FC]

I always judge a doc or docu-series by "did I learn something new."

[+] spoiler

On this front, 10 episodes I'd say the closeness of MJ and his security detail, particularly Gus as a father figure. I did not know Steve Kerr's father was assassinated in Beirut.

It was interesting to hear from guys like Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, Gary Payton, Patrick Ewing, etc.

I'm still left wanting in terms of the true rationale for breaking up that team. I'm left wanting with what was going through Pippen's mind at various points in the series.

But, mostly, it just lacks a bit of credibility and criticality because of Jordon's role in the production. I enjoyed it, mostly for nostalgia's sake. I slowly started losing interest in the league in the 2000s... This era was my wheelhouse.

[brian]

Y'all remember there were two Fyre Festival documentaries that came out within a week of each other -- one on Hulu and one on Netflix?

Both were entertaining and interesting, but in my mind the Netflix documentary was tainted due to the fact that it was produced by one of the companies (Fuck Jerry) that seemed to be largely responsible for the shitshow the festival became and of course they painted themselves in the best possible light in the Netflix doc.

The problem with us as a society is how this bleeds into things like journalism and the demands we should rightly place on knowing how facts are being presented to us. "The Last Dance" is many things, but it's certainly not a serious documentary. (And I'm not saying it even necessarily aspires to be, but as a viewer I'm glad I watched the Hulu doc on Fyre first and knew FJ's involvement in the Netflix doc, so I had as many of the "facts" as possible when watching.)

[Nonlinear FC]

I had the exact same experience with those docs. Very glad I watched them in that order for the exact same reason.

This isn't a serious documentary, to be sure. It was entertaining, but you are correct that it needs to be put in proper context. I don't think it really twists too many facts, I just think it doesn't allow for a more even interpretation of things. MJ almost always (always?) had the last word on any given topic.

[Steve of phpBB]

Finished 6 episodes, and while it is really well done, I'm getting a bit bored of it.

Great to walk down memory lane, but it is getting pretty repetitive.

For me, it's *incredible* to walk down this memory lane. Seeing the video clips takes me back to so many different moments and places and events. My first clear MJ memory was watching the 63-pointer against the Celtics. I was a 20 year old college junior in Illinois. When he hit that last shot in 1998, I was about to turn 33, married and a lawyer and living in Utah (watching from my mom's apartment in view of the Delta Center). In between, the highlights are bringing back vivid memories of probably a dozen places I lived or visited during the time in between.

I can imagine that it would get old for most viewers. But damn I've been enjoying the hell out of it.

[DaveInSeattle]

The 83 Non-M.J. Talking Heads in The Last Dance, Ranked

[Joe K]

The capping moment, for me, was when Jordan explained how everyone would have come back for one more run. Last person he says would return is Pippen.

Yet, Pippen, who has been in pretty much every episode... not answering.

Watching the documentary makes me think that Pippen is pretty underappreciated for his willingness (at least through 1997-98) to play the role of a low drama secondary star. The early 2000s Lakers and late 2010s Warriors ultimately broke up -- despite being built to contend for more titles -- because of irreconcilable differences between their top 2 players. (The Shaq/Kobe stuff is well known and it's also pretty clear from plugged in reporters that Durant left Golden State in part because he hated the fact that their fans viewed Curry as better and/or more valuable.). The fact that Pippen deferred on that question makes me wonder if he had finally reached his limits and was done playing with Jordan after 1998 no matter what.

[DSafetyGuy]

So, did Michael Jordan turn out this way because of he was always trying to get his dad's approval? Shorthand version of a half-baked theory from a non-psychologist...

In one of the early episodes, Michael talks about how he was competing with his brother Larry for their dad's approval, even getting sentenced to "go with the women" (or something like that) because he didn't know what tools to hand his dad while he was repairing something. As he achieves stardom and becomes a champion in the NBA, he "becomes best friends" with his dad, celebrating with him in the locker room. He eventually leaves basketball for baseball, something he talked about with his dad (and I'm pretty sure they said baseball was his dad's favorite sport). He returns to basketball and becomes a champion again because of the drive to gain his father's approval (which he can't get because he's gone).

[A_B]

The capping moment, for me, was when Jordan explained how everyone would have come back for one more run. Last person he says would return is Pippen.

Yet, Pippen, who has been in pretty much every episode... not answering.

Watching the documentary makes me think that Pippen is pretty underappreciated for his willingness (at least through 1997-98) to play the role of a low drama secondary star. The early 2000s Lakers and late 2010s Warriors ultimately broke up -- despite being built to contend for more titles -- because of irreconcilable differences between their top 2 players. (The Shaq/Kobe stuff is well known and it's also pretty clear from plugged in reporters that Durant left Golden State in part because he hated the fact that their fans viewed Curry as better and/or more valuable.). The fact that Pippen deferred on that question makes me wonder if he had finally reached his limits and was done playing with Jordan after 1998 no matter what.

Whoa. This is just a documentary. Not Heath ledger dying.

[Steve of phpBB]

The capping moment, for me, was when Jordan explained how everyone would have come back for one more run. Last person he says would return is Pippen.

Yet, Pippen, who has been in pretty much every episode... not answering.

Watching the documentary makes me think that Pippen is pretty underappreciated for his willingness (at least through 1997-98) to play the role of a low drama secondary star. The early 2000s Lakers and late 2010s Warriors ultimately broke up -- despite being built to contend for more titles -- because of irreconcilable differences between their top 2 players. (The Shaq/Kobe stuff is well known and it's also pretty clear from plugged in reporters that Durant left Golden State in part because he hated the fact that their fans viewed Curry as better and/or more valuable.). The fact that Pippen deferred on that question makes me wonder if he had finally reached his limits and was done playing with Jordan after 1998 no matter what.

That’s a good question. At the time, based on what made it into the daily papers, it didn’t seem like Scottie had any problems with Jordan. There had been some jealousy during the first three-peat, with Horace and Scottie expressing frustration at times. But then Scottie got to be the big dog during the first retirement. After that it seemed like Scottie was fine being Robin.

[wlu_lax6]

The thing I keep seeing in the Last Dance is just what MJs expectations for those around him. He expected folks to work as hard has he did, compete like he did, and have a chip like he did (does still). You can see the relationship with the players who got along with him were ones of not sure we like him, not sure how he liked interacting with us, but man it is what we needed to get to that championship level. You can see it with BJ, Kerr, the big men. The only person who really understood it closely at the time was Rodman (who probably got some of it with Detroit but also had rope to be a weirdo) and maybe some of Pippen because he elevated early on in his career from being tied to Jordan. To me it looked like MJ still could not get past the fact that Scott Burrell was a tremendous talent who was too nice to compete.

[Joe K]

The thing I keep seeing in the Last Dance is just what MJs expectations for those around him. He expected folks to work as hard has he did, compete like he did, and have a chip like he did (does still). You can see the relationship with the players who got along with him were ones of not sure we like him, not sure how he liked interacting with us, but man it is what we needed to get to that championship level. You can see it with BJ, Kerr, the big men. The only person who really understood it closely at the time was Rodman (who probably got some of it with Detroit but also had rope to be a weirdo) and maybe some of Pippen because he elevated early on in his career from being tied to Jordan. To me it looked like MJ still could not get past the fact that Scott Burrell was a tremendous talent who was too nice to compete.

What’s interesting about this point (at least to me) is that from 2015-2019, Kerr coached a team with “championship or bust” expectations, but did it with a leadership style nothing at all like Jordan’s. Kerr uses elements of Pippen (positive reinforcement) and Phil Jackson (intellectualism) but he really doesn’t try to be a Jordan-esque Type A hardass. Kerr also won 2 championships playing with Tim Duncan, an all-time great who is Jordan’s polar opposite personality wise. I would have liked to have seen the filmmakers ask Kerr about this because he’s uniquely situated to talk about the tradeoffs with different leadership styles.

[Ryan]

Maybe they did and he said "yeah, I guess you can with with different leadership styles"

[Nonlinear FC]

I'd watch a documentary on Kerr like it was my job. Fascinating dude.

[Joe K]

I'd watch a documentary on Kerr like it was my job. Fascinating dude.

Kerr, to his credit, is very open with the press. He’s not at all like Popovich or Belichick, who act like sports coaching involves state secrets. I recently listened to the audiobook version of The Victory Machine, Ethan Strauss’ new book about the Warriors. Kerr gave Strauss a lot of time and info for that. He also did a podcast with Zach Lowe last month, after the first couple episodes of The Last Dance aired, where he talked about 90s Bulls nostalgia. Lowe spent a lot of that time breaking down individual playoff games from ‘97 and ‘98 and it was impressive how much Kerr recalled about them.

[Joe K]

Horace Grant, very much not a fan:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/291 ... lls-snitch

There are a bunch of his specific criticisms in the link, but he concludes his comments this way:

“When that so-called documentary is about one person, basically, and he has the last word on what's going to be put out there ... it's not a documentary," Grant said. "It's his narrative of what happens in the last, quote-unquote, dance. That's not a documentary, because a whole bunch of things was cut out, edited out. So that's why I call it a so-called documentary."

[wlu_lax6]

Grant is a fascinating figure. You can tell he had a lot to say on those interviews. Plus he is blamed for the Jordan Rules leaks and Smith does not say it was not him.

I remember those Orlando days. When Disney put goggles on the Mickey water tower they were so in love with him. And Penny/Lil-Penny and the lean and fast shaq. Shaq running the break in those days was awesome.

[mister d]

Yup. Reading the Jordan Rules (several times) you got the feeling Grant was the smart one.

[sancarlos]

Click open the attachment. hat tip to Doc Howard.