2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by Steve of phpBB »

mister d wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:27 pm Steve, if someone walks onto your lawn with their dick out, maybe helicoptering it around, what can you do? First option is you can physically remove them yourself; say ‘fuck off I'm throwing you out of here’ and they’re out and it’s resolved. That’s good. Probably not reality for most of us but best case. Second option is call the cops and trust they’ll intervene and 15 minutes from now it’ll all be good and the dick guy is gone. But what if they don’t respond. What’s your third option, where you’re not willing to return aggression with aggression (because you have more to lose) and the cops are too busy or too conflicted elsewhere to act? What’s the fallback response?
I'm not sure what this has to do with the election, but if I am not willing to return aggression with aggression because I have more to lose, I just ignore him.

What is your response?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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It’s an analogy.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:39 pm It’s an analogy.
Well, yeah, I'm familiar with the concept, but I'm not sure how it works. Or why it's directed at me.

I pointed out that Trump doesn't have the power to do all these things people are freaking out about - so it's not worth freaking out about.

There are some actors who do have the power to fuck with the system, as I mentioned. The courts and certain state legislatures. In all honesty, the thing I fear most is more violence and property destruction from anti-police violence rioters giving legislatures an excuse to declare some kind of emergency and fuck with the system that way.

But Trump cannot do anything like that himself. And he has no power over the people who can.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Trump has spent 3+ years doing things that theoretically someone could stop him from doing.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Yeah, any certainty that "he can't do that" is completely unfounded at this point. He's pushed on a ton of supposed boundaries and has found every single one to be way more pliable than people seemed to think. It turns out if the president wants to do whatever he wants, stopping him requires people with the courage to try to stop him. I've seen very little of that. So, if he gets pissed and decides to fight the election results, honestly, who's going to step up and stop him? The Senate? The Supreme Court? The military?
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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At that point you honestly need a Kingslayer. But one bestowed via conspiracy.

And a republic that would understand why.

Right now, the 2nd amendment types are a citizen army hellbent on getting to use their toys. And if pointing guns at people is no longer illegal, what's shooting them?

This is going to be very, very bad.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:58 am Trump has spent 3+ years doing things that theoretically someone could stop him from doing.
Sorry, I didn’t make my point clear. I’m not saying someone will stop him. I’m saying it’s not in his power, so there’s no need for someone to stop him.

The bad stuff Trump has done has involved misuse of his power as President. As the head of the Executive Branch. But the people who count votes, certify results, or resolve election disputes are not part of the Executive Branch.

And in all honesty, most of Trump’s bad stuff has *not* been things that theoretically could be stopped outside of impeachment. The President has a shitload of discretionary power. This is why it’s so important that Trump isn’t re-elected.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Shirley wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:39 am Yeah, any certainty that "he can't do that" is completely unfounded at this point. He's pushed on a ton of supposed boundaries and has found every single one to be way more pliable than people seemed to think. It turns out if the president wants to do whatever he wants, stopping him requires people with the courage to try to stop him. I've seen very little of that. So, if he gets pissed and decides to fight the election results, honestly, who's going to step up and stop him? The Senate? The Supreme Court? The military?
What kind of fighting the election results are you thinking of?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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He'll simply deny their validity, the Republicans will back him and there will eventually be a proper legal appeal.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:58 am He'll simply deny their validity, the Republicans will back him and there will eventually be a proper legal appeal.
If it comes down to one or two states, sure. As I’ve been saying, courts and legislatures could choose to fuck us.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:42 am
Shirley wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:39 am Yeah, any certainty that "he can't do that" is completely unfounded at this point. He's pushed on a ton of supposed boundaries and has found every single one to be way more pliable than people seemed to think. It turns out if the president wants to do whatever he wants, stopping him requires people with the courage to try to stop him. I've seen very little of that. So, if he gets pissed and decides to fight the election results, honestly, who's going to step up and stop him? The Senate? The Supreme Court? The military?
What kind of fighting the election results are you thinking of?
Yeah, what Mr D said. He could reject results as invalid, say there was corruption, blame the Democrats, and just stay in office. He may only need to do this with a few states' results, I'm not sure. Or he could just say that there was massive nationwide-corruption and therefore the whole election was invalid.

If he does any of the above, or similar, stopping him requires someone to actually step up and stop him. Are you convinced that our national-level politicians and courts are up to the task of stopping such a bold play? I'm not. Because anyone who challenges him will be the next target and frankly, I no longer think we have enough people in authority with the courage to stand up to him. The Republicans have proven they won't, so that's ~50% right off the bat. That leaves Democrats, and again, I don't think most have the backbone for that fight.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope the outcome is so decisive that he doesn't feel like he can challenge it. But with this dude? Anything is possible.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Its also impossibly stupid that it can all come down to "he won't leave the house where the president lives".
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Shirley wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:26 am Yeah, what Mr D said. He could reject results as invalid, say there was corruption, blame the Democrats, and just stay in office. He may only need to do this with a few states' results, I'm not sure. Or he could just say that there was massive nationwide-corruption and therefore the whole election was invalid.
I hate to say this...but I think the fix is in already. He's going to contest results (obviously), take it to the Supreme Court, where his newly installed Justice will cast the deciding vote to keep him in office. Real banana republic type shit. And sadly, all the GOP enablers will sit back and say 'well, the court decided'. And we're all fucked and emailing Brian to see if he's got room on his couch in Mexico.

That Atlantic article yesterday did get me to thinking about the scenario that was laid out....which states are possible to go for Biden, but have Republican legislatures that would throw out the result and appoint Trump electors for the Electoral College? The only one I could come up with was Wisconsin.

I just can't believe the end of our democracy is going to be in service to Donald Fuckin' Trump...the absolute worst person in the world.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:32 am Its also impossibly stupid that it can all come down to "he won't leave the house where the president lives".
And, if he won’t leave, a significant , potentially violent portion of the country would support the move (or, lack of it), even if the results are indisputable.
Last edited by sancarlos on Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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DaveInSeattle wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:35 am
Shirley wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:26 am Yeah, what Mr D said. He could reject results as invalid, say there was corruption, blame the Democrats, and just stay in office. He may only need to do this with a few states' results, I'm not sure. Or he could just say that there was massive nationwide-corruption and therefore the whole election was invalid.
I hate to say this...but I think the fix is in already. He's going to contest results (obviously), take it to the Supreme Court, where his newly installed Justice will cast the deciding vote to keep him in office. Real banana republic type shit. And sadly, all the GOP enablers will sit back and say 'well, the court decided'. And we're all fucked and emailing Brian to see if he's got room on his couch in Mexico.

That Atlantic article yesterday did get me to thinking about the scenario that was laid out....which states are possible to go for Biden, but have Republican legislatures that would throw out the result and appoint Trump electors for the Electoral College? The only one I could come up with was Wisconsin.

I just can't believe the end of our democracy is going to be in service to Donald Fuckin' Trump...the absolute worst person in the world.
Pennsylvania??
Florida??
Texas??
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by Joe K »

Maybe I’m too optimistic, but I don’t see Roberts or Gorsuch going along with a blatantly stolen election. They’re both right-wing for sure, but I think they care enough about their legacies to not sanction a completely rigged process. Also, assuming Barrett gets confirmed, those two already have their ideologically preferred Court and wouldn’t feel the need to ruin its legitimacy for the sake of Trump. That being said, if the election comes down to a very small margin in key states such that it’s not patently obvious rigging then I’d be worried.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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At that point, it'll be up to the people in the state to literally threaten the lives of those in the legislature.

The worry with that is the escalation of the 2A crowd. This is third world country dictator shit. The fact that free and fair elections can neither be free nor fair is disgusting.

This gives me a bit of hope:

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:32 am Its also impossibly stupid that it can all come down to "he won't leave the house where the president lives".
That’s just it though. It really can’t come down to that. His term ends at noon on January 20. After that he’s no longer President unless he’s sworn in again. If Biden is sworn in, he’s President. If not, Pelosi is.

If he wants to stay in the East Wing and watch Fox News after that, fine. But at that point it’d be like, say, some dude on your lawn helicoptering his dick around.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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It can't? You don't think Trump couldn't just sign an Executive Order invalidating the election and/or the established rules of succession? Or that he couldn't get Barr to declare that the DOJ agrees that the election was fraudulent and Trump is still president?

What's gonna stop him, someone filing a lawsuit? Please.

Again, I'm hoping it doesn't come to that, but if you don't think it's possible, you haven't been paying attention.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Shirley wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:12 am It can't? You don't think Trump couldn't just sign an Executive Order invalidating the election and/or the established rules of succession? Or that he couldn't get Barr to declare that the DOJ agrees that the election was fraudulent and Trump is still president?

What's gonna stop him, someone filing a lawsuit? Please.

Again, I'm hoping it doesn't come to that, but if you don't think it's possible, you haven't been paying attention.
He can sign whatever he wants, but no one would enforce something that patently stupid. So no one would need to stop him; it would be a nullity.

Barr acts within his power. He does it dishonestly and with no regard for the country, but he acts within his power. There is no conceivable power that would allow him to declare multiple state elections fraudulent or to decree that Trump can remain president after January 20.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Yeah, I've been saying the same thing as Steve for months. The Constitution doesn't allow for someone to just say "nah" about the election results.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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The constitution may not allow it, but that doesn't mean he won't try it, with the backing of mobs of hillbillies, bikers, rednecks, and white suburban businessmen.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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sancarlos wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:33 am The constitution may not allow it, but that doesn't mean he won't try it, with the backing of mobs of hillbillies, bikers, rednecks, and white suburban businessmen.
What are they going to do, though. Storm Congress? The Department of Justice building?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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"It can't happen here."
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:43 am
sancarlos wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:33 am The constitution may not allow it, but that doesn't mean he won't try it, with the backing of mobs of hillbillies, bikers, rednecks, and white suburban businessmen.
What are they going to do, though. Storm Congress? The Department of Justice building?
Massacre people? Backed by police and sherriff's departments? I mean, I can see outcomes here that are violent and could only be put down by military intervention. It isn't the left with the guns, by and large...
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:43 am
sancarlos wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:33 am The constitution may not allow it, but that doesn't mean he won't try it, with the backing of mobs of hillbillies, bikers, rednecks, and white suburban businessmen.
What are they going to do, though. Storm Congress? The Department of Justice building?
MAYBE
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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The constitution is a concept and some papers. It requires and assumes a certain amount of cooperation from all those involved. If the President isn't one of those people and he has broad power over both the Executive Branch as well as his party (~50% of the other two branches), then all bets are off.

He has been breaking supposedly sacrosanct rules (and laws) his entire time as president. The closest he ever got called on it as the Impeachment and we saw how that ended up.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Like, this is as close to a civil war police state as this dumb flamewar shithole country is gonna come...until tomorrow when something new and worse happens.

The absolute best you can hope for is that the psychos just get bored and move on like the end of The Truman Show. Hasn’t happened yet.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Yeah, to be clear, I don't really think this is going to happen. I think Biden is going to win fairly easily and we can end this fucking nightmare of (four) year(s).

But I'm not certain about that and that's crazy.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Shirley wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:09 pm The constitution is a concept and some papers. It requires and assumes a certain amount of cooperation from all those involved. If the President isn't one of those people and he has broad power over both the Executive Branch as well as his party (~50% of the other two branches), then all bets are off.

He has been breaking supposedly sacrosanct rules (and laws) his entire time as president. The closest he ever got called on it as the Impeachment and we saw how that ended up.
Preach.

Been telling friends this since Nov. 2016. They keep going back to "but...the law". They don't seem to grasp that laws are only as good as people being willing to follow them. The constitution does not work anymore if one party stops following it (and puts judges in place to keep gutting it). And also if that party has all the crazy followers with guns.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Joe K wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:47 am Maybe I’m too optimistic, but I don’t see Roberts or Gorsuch going along with a blatantly stolen election.
I don't think Roberts would go along with it...he seems way too concerned about the "Legacy" of the Roberts Court. Which is why its so critical they get a new Justice seated before the election.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Not sure what this counts for, but here you go.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Bill Maher was so correct to call this a 'slow moving coup' from day 1 and all point blank to every potential Democratic nominee "What will you do if Donald Trump refuses to let go of his power in the event he loses?"
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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It just hit me that it's a good thing that Biden served as the Vice President. Because even if he wins and Trump *somewhat* accepts it, he's a vindictive, lazy fuck. Trump wouldn't lift a finger to assist in the transition at all because he couldn't give any less of a shit about America. The fact that Biden has already been through a transition is invaluable here.

And to echo upthread, it disgusts me that of all the people who could bring down the democracy, it's this banal imbicile, someone completely without any thoughts besides what will get him money or get his dick hard. What a fucking waste.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Well, quite frankly, the transition rests hugely on the staff under normal circumstances. If you go back and check in Dec 2016 and Jan 2017 I guarantee you'll see me ranting about how psychotic and chaotic Trump's transition "team" was behaving. Absolutely bonkers, including the fact that they didn't think they'd win, so (in part) that's why they didn't have any policy papers or positions drawn up. (The other part is that they simply didn't understand the importance of actually having written down positions, so they could actually start to enact things when they took office. They were all operating under Trump's usual bloviating as managing technique.)

There are tons of people on the Dem side that are going to be able to fill out a transition team and do so in an orderly and competent fashion. Hell, there are tons of Rep folks that could've done it for Trump, he just told them all to piss off and/or they told him the same.

I guess what I'm saying is Biden's VP experience is nice, but not a huge deal in the grand scheme of the transition. We'll be just fine on that front, regardless.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by Shirley »

Johnnie wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:35 pm Not sure what this counts for, but here you go.

Well, we should count all the ballots, but we don't always. I think it's standard practice in many places (all places) to not count absentee ballots unless the "regular" voting is close enough to where they could change the outcome. Maybe they eventually count them, but not right away.

And of course, in 2008, the Supreme Court ordered Florida to stop counting ballots, so there's precedent for that as well.
Totally Kafkaesque
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by tennbengal »

Johnnie wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:35 pm Not sure what this counts for, but here you go.

thanks. i was worried but I am now certain that Trump will defer to (checks notes) Ellen Weintraub.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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https://politicalwire.com/2020/09/24/bo ... -day-1399/

“As a Republican, I am ready to accept any decision of the court as to the outcome of the election and there is no alternative than a peaceful transition of power.”

— Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), quoted by Fox News, suggesting the 2020 presidential election will be decided by the Supreme Court and not voters.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:08 pmInforming potential voters about how to register or get ballots or vote ... that's important. But I think text messaging is probably better for that. (I went through Biden campaign text-messaging training yesterday so I could help in those areas when the time comes. It seems pretty thorough.)
So my wife and I have done a few rounds of texting. It's been pretty satisfying so far. It's actually hard to get a set of contacts to send to, because there are so many volunteers that as soon as a new texting campaign is put out, people jump in. Just in the last half-hour they had 1600 volunteers send texts to half a million fellow young people about an upcoming Biden-Harris virtual rally.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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