2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by Steve of phpBB »

mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:10 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:01 pmYes, Kasich is a horrible insane nutjob on abortion. Is there any indication that Biden is going to appoint him to a position where that issue is relevant?
Do you not question why that ideology isn't disqualifying?
For an administrative position running the Department of Transportation or Department of Energy? No, I don't think his being a strong Catholic is disqualifying from positions like that.

Something like HHS, that deals with abortion issues? Absolutely his ideology is disqualifying.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:15 pmSeriously, dude, wasn't it like two hours ago you posted a tweet talking about Biden's progressive positions - and how popular they were?
Yes, when Biden shapes policy around the public's needs and demands, the public responds positively. That's how we're screaming for all of this to work.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:15 pmAnyway, if you think Biden is not running on the most progressive platform for a major party presidential candidate in US history, who has? Is he in the top three? Five? Ten?
We've done this 100 times. "Most progressive" relative to prior presidencies rather than modern standards doesn't mean jack shit unless you think regressing is an option for both parties. Its touting "the most fuel efficient Ford pickup truck ever" if Ford is still lagging behind a half dozen other pickup manufacturers.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:22 pmIts touting "the most fuel efficient Ford pickup truck ever" if Ford is still lagging behind a half dozen other pickup manufacturers.
Okay, who is Biden lagging behind?

And yes, regressing is an option. That's what both parties did for much of the past few decades.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:15 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:13 am Weird stance taken by the most progressive presidential candidate in the history of the world.
Just in this country.

Seriously, dude, wasn't it like two hours ago you posted a tweet talking about Biden's progressive positions - and how popular they were?

Anyway, if you think Biden is not running on the most progressive platform for a major party presidential candidate in US history, who has? Is he in the top three? Five? Ten?
Mr. D can answer for himself but I think that when compared to their eras, FDR and LBJ were way more progressive than Biden. The country as a whole was horrible on gay rights back then, and women’s rights were also virtually nonexistent. So in that sense they were less “progressive” than Biden or any mainstream Democrat today. But I don’t think there’s a chance in hell that Biden will enact anything remotely comparable to the New Deal, Civil Rights Act or Great Society.

In fact, I’ll predict now that after he gets elected Biden will back off of a public option, won’t expand the Court, and will pass a stimulus package smaller than what’s currently on the table. Based on how adamant he is about his support for fracking I’m not optimistic about a major environmental bill either.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pmOkay, who is Biden lagging behind?
Out of the other Dems in the primary? Lets say four debates is the cutoff here so I don't run out of characters ... Biden would be behind Sanders, Warren, Yang, Booker, Gabbard, Beto, Steyer, Castro and probably Buttigieg.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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I dunno about Beto.

/making your point
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:42 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pmOkay, who is Biden lagging behind?
Out of the other Dems in the primary? Lets say four debates is the cutoff here so I don't run out of characters ... Biden would be behind Sanders, Warren, Yang, Booker, Gabbard, Beto, Steyer, Castro and probably Buttigieg.
Right, but I meant out of credible presidential candidates. Not people who couldn't even get one-third of the Dem primary voters behind them.

I haven't claimed that Biden was the most progressive candidate in the Dem primary. He clearly wasn't - and that's why he won.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Fuck this is exhausting. "Wow look at how progressive Biden is once you eliminate almost every other candidate who was bypassed by the party because they were relatively too progressive."
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:56 pm Fuck this is exhausting. "Wow look at how progressive Biden is once you eliminate almost every other candidate who was bypassed by the party because they were relatively too progressive."
Also, did Biden beat everyone else because he’s less progressive or because he served as VP to the beloved ex-President who has like a 99% approval rating among primary voters? To this point, it takes some serious mental gymnastics to think that any of the other candidates you mentioned could not have won the primary had Obama backed them. (In fact there’s recent opinion polling showing that Democratic voters’ opinion of single-payer health insurance markedly improves if they are told that Obama supports it.) While Obama did not explicitly endorse Biden, he called Pete, Beto and Klobuchar to push them to endorse Biden when they did. That mattered.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:56 pm Fuck this is exhausting.
I don't understand how you guys have kept at this for so long.

Kudos?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Name a pickup truck more fuel-efficient but less popular than the Ford F150 (6)
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Felt pretty good to vote today. Early voting, in person, all Dems, all nos on state constitutional amendments except increasing the minimum wage.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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rass wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:06 pm Name a pickup truck more fuel-efficient but less popular than the Ford F150 (6)
"The big chevy one. Ram? Or is that a different brand altogether? Pick whichever answer there makes sense."
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Joe K wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:28 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:15 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:13 am Weird stance taken by the most progressive presidential candidate in the history of the world.
Just in this country.

Seriously, dude, wasn't it like two hours ago you posted a tweet talking about Biden's progressive positions - and how popular they were?

Anyway, if you think Biden is not running on the most progressive platform for a major party presidential candidate in US history, who has? Is he in the top three? Five? Ten?
Mr. D can answer for himself but I think that when compared to their eras, FDR and LBJ were way more progressive than Biden. The country as a whole was horrible on gay rights back then, and women’s rights were also virtually nonexistent. So in that sense they were less “progressive” than Biden or any mainstream Democrat today. But I don’t think there’s a chance in hell that Biden will enact anything remotely comparable to the New Deal, Civil Rights Act or Great Society.

In fact, I’ll predict now that after he gets elected Biden will back off of a public option, won’t expand the Court, and will pass a stimulus package smaller than what’s currently on the table. Based on how adamant he is about his support for fracking I’m not optimistic about a major environmental bill either.

Eisenhower was probably more progressive than Biden.

FDR was populist as hell (as was a large win of the GOP at the time).
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Buncha white guys arguing about the progressive purity of a candidate while there's a racist in the WH.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Eh, I think the dollar amount and targets of a stimulus would be a decent litmus of "progressive" (but likely misguided) bona fides. Biden should be held to account one way or another.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:54 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:42 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pmOkay, who is Biden lagging behind?
Out of the other Dems in the primary? Lets say four debates is the cutoff here so I don't run out of characters ... Biden would be behind Sanders, Warren, Yang, Booker, Gabbard, Beto, Steyer, Castro and probably Buttigieg.
Right, but I meant out of credible presidential candidates. Not people who couldn't even get one-third of the Dem primary voters behind them.

I haven't claimed that Biden was the most progressive candidate in the Dem primary. He clearly wasn't - and that's why he won.
I'm curious how all of the more Progressive candidates polled one-on-one vs. Biden. I also believe that primaries give a huge advantage to more known names. Very few people take the time to understand the candidates and issues that early on, and jump on quick heuristics of how they feel about a candidate. In a time of chaos, people felt more comfortable wit the grandfatherly, nice, Centrist man they've seen for the past 47 years rather than understanding the nuances of the differences between the flashy new candidates with their crazy new ideas like UBI or their Green New Deals. If people fully understood the issues, and the Progressives had one candidate rather than watering down the Progressive vote, maybe Biden doesn't win. I think there was a lot more enthusiasm for the rest of the pack, but people voted for Biden out of name recognition, a desire for stability and a return to normalcy.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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The Sybian wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:43 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:54 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:42 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pmOkay, who is Biden lagging behind?
Out of the other Dems in the primary? Lets say four debates is the cutoff here so I don't run out of characters ... Biden would be behind Sanders, Warren, Yang, Booker, Gabbard, Beto, Steyer, Castro and probably Buttigieg.
Right, but I meant out of credible presidential candidates. Not people who couldn't even get one-third of the Dem primary voters behind them.

I haven't claimed that Biden was the most progressive candidate in the Dem primary. He clearly wasn't - and that's why he won.
I'm curious how all of the more Progressive candidates polled one-on-one vs. Biden. I also believe that primaries give a huge advantage to more known names. Very few people take the time to understand the candidates and issues that early on, and jump on quick heuristics of how they feel about a candidate. In a time of chaos, people felt more comfortable wit the grandfatherly, nice, Centrist man they've seen for the past 47 years rather than understanding the nuances of the differences between the flashy new candidates with their crazy new ideas like UBI or their Green New Deals.
This is a good point. You can’t say that the primary results are all about ideology when Kamala Harris, who is very close to Biden on policy, was polling terribly before she dropped out. Clearly a lot voters were terrified of running a woman or minority against Trump, which was a dynamic that benefited Biden and Sanders (who also happened to be the two with the most name recognition).
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Joe K wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:10 pm
The Sybian wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:43 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:54 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:42 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pmOkay, who is Biden lagging behind?
Out of the other Dems in the primary? Lets say four debates is the cutoff here so I don't run out of characters ... Biden would be behind Sanders, Warren, Yang, Booker, Gabbard, Beto, Steyer, Castro and probably Buttigieg.
Right, but I meant out of credible presidential candidates. Not people who couldn't even get one-third of the Dem primary voters behind them.

I haven't claimed that Biden was the most progressive candidate in the Dem primary. He clearly wasn't - and that's why he won.
I'm curious how all of the more Progressive candidates polled one-on-one vs. Biden. I also believe that primaries give a huge advantage to more known names. Very few people take the time to understand the candidates and issues that early on, and jump on quick heuristics of how they feel about a candidate. In a time of chaos, people felt more comfortable wit the grandfatherly, nice, Centrist man they've seen for the past 47 years rather than understanding the nuances of the differences between the flashy new candidates with their crazy new ideas like UBI or their Green New Deals.
This is a good point. You can’t say that the primary results are all about ideology when Kamala Harris, who is very close to Biden on policy, was polling terribly before she dropped out. Clearly a lot voters were terrified of running a woman or minority against Trump, which was a dynamic that benefited Biden and Sanders (who also happened to be the two with the most name recognition).
That's all theoretically possible, but then why did Sanders get only 30 percent or so this time around? He clearly had name recognition and money, etc. As far as I can tell, the only other strike against him is his being an old white guy ... but clearly that wasn't a dealbreaker for the Dem electorate.

The fact that Harris failed doesn't mean she was rejected because of the policies she was espousing. I think that was a combination of factors. Ideology alone is never going to be enough for a candidate to succeed.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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So how would this work if Biden won??

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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You've gotta stop.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pmThat's all theoretically possible, but then why did Sanders get only 30 percent or so this time around?
Its the same answer as before. What were his numbers versus Biden's numbers before the party consolidation.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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psunate77 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:48 pm So how would this work if Biden won??

Hm.

You'd have to have a Biden win and a Republican takeover of the House. I guess that could happen if Biden wins in 2020 and the Rs take the House in 2022. But even then, the Dems would certainly hold at least 34 seats in the Senate, so Biden couldn't be removed.

(And if he were, he'd be replaced by Harris anyway.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Joe K wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:10 pm
The Sybian wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:43 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:54 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:42 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pmOkay, who is Biden lagging behind?
Out of the other Dems in the primary? Lets say four debates is the cutoff here so I don't run out of characters ... Biden would be behind Sanders, Warren, Yang, Booker, Gabbard, Beto, Steyer, Castro and probably Buttigieg.
Right, but I meant out of credible presidential candidates. Not people who couldn't even get one-third of the Dem primary voters behind them.

I haven't claimed that Biden was the most progressive candidate in the Dem primary. He clearly wasn't - and that's why he won.
I'm curious how all of the more Progressive candidates polled one-on-one vs. Biden. I also believe that primaries give a huge advantage to more known names. Very few people take the time to understand the candidates and issues that early on, and jump on quick heuristics of how they feel about a candidate. In a time of chaos, people felt more comfortable wit the grandfatherly, nice, Centrist man they've seen for the past 47 years rather than understanding the nuances of the differences between the flashy new candidates with their crazy new ideas like UBI or their Green New Deals.
This is a good point. You can’t say that the primary results are all about ideology when Kamala Harris, who is very close to Biden on policy, was polling terribly before she dropped out. Clearly a lot voters were terrified of running a woman or minority against Trump, which was a dynamic that benefited Biden and Sanders (who also happened to be the two with the most name recognition).
But I don't really think it was about a woman or a minority, but more strongly what Syb said: A return to normalcy, which includes a lot of folks remembering that dude named Barack they love so bad now that he's gone and ShitShow Bob is running things.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just don't think it's as clear cut on the negative framing you're using.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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mister d wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:50 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pmThat's all theoretically possible, but then why did Sanders get only 30 percent or so this time around?
Its the same answer as before. What were his numbers versus Biden's numbers before the party consolidation.
I was asking about why, if the primary results could be explained by voters going for a familiar white man, Sanders didn't get more votes. I don't think a Biden-Sanders comparison really has much to do with that.

(But FWIW, Biden had gotten about 330,064 primary votes before the consolidation, and Sanders had gotten 269,726. In delegates, Biden had 62 and Sanders had 57.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Re: the crazy shit up above

1) If Biden wins the election, it would almost likely have to come with at least a majority of seats in the House, because gerrymandering.
2) Yes, the Republicans if and when they do control the House one day will impeach a President Biden or President Harris if they so much as leave a shitstain on White House towels, so what? Everyone knows who the Republicans are at this point and stupid stunts like that will continue to cost them voters in the end. The American people know what a scandal is vs. a ginned-up one*. And too many people still respect the seriousness of impeachment that it will be another piece of shitty theatrics that fails for this miserable band of losers.

Still, it's literally the stupidest fucking thing in the world to even waste a second of bandwidth on and I'm embarrassed that I did.

* - As much as they bitch about it, the GOP has gotten lucky in retrospect that more attention has been paid to women's rights because it's made the actions of Bill Clinton relative to what Trump was impeached for. The impeachment of Clinton at the time was recognized as more a political hack job than a subject worthy of legitimate impeachment, at least for anyone of even moderate independence from GOP orthodoxy.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:53 pm
psunate77 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:48 pm So how would this work if Biden won??

Hm.

You'd have to have a Biden win and a Republican takeover of the House. I guess that could happen if Biden wins in 2020 and the Rs take the House in 2022. But even then, the Dems would certainly hold at least 34 seats in the Senate, so Biden couldn't be removed.

(And if he were, he'd be replaced by Harris anyway.)
But if Biden wins on the 3rd, there is noway they can reject or impeach a President elect before he takes office, right?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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psunate77 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:49 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:53 pm
psunate77 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:48 pm So how would this work if Biden won??

Hm.

You'd have to have a Biden win and a Republican takeover of the House. I guess that could happen if Biden wins in 2020 and the Rs take the House in 2022. But even then, the Dems would certainly hold at least 34 seats in the Senate, so Biden couldn't be removed.

(And if he were, he'd be replaced by Harris anyway.)
But if Biden wins on the 3rd, there is noway they can reject or impeach a President elect before he takes office, right?
Is this a serious question? One, no you cannot impeach before the person is in office. Two, the house brings impeachment charges and is Dem controlled anwyay.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Nah there was real desire for a moderate straight white male to beat trump. From black folks as much as anyone. Bernie failed the moderate test. Zero chance Bernie would have been able to put his ego aside and stay in a hole during the past 6 months. Biden has been there done that and was willing to listen to advisors. Bernie, probably rightfully to him, would have died on the progressive cross. Principle over power and would have done something to piss away the move to the middle that is expected and necessary during the transition from primary to general election. The socialist and radical talking points don't work with Biden because everyone knows it's not true. Those attacks would have stuck with Bernie.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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We need to start taking bets on whatever it was that provoked Trump to storm out of his interview with Lesley Stahl (which will make for great theater and probably great ratings for 60 Minutes, which leads me to believe it was staged by Trump himself to draw attention to himself.)

But if so, even more then that begs the question. What would Trump pretend is finally a line too far that he won't talk about?

(Arguments against it being staged was that him trying to salt the earth against Stahl was a five-second video of her not wearing a mask was infantile even by Trump standards. If it's real, I think it might be something they asked him about these guys?)

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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You want a real, possible scenario to give you a nightmare here you go.

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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I'm a little high right now, but I think we're probably getting to the point where there's either going to be a scary, public plot by Trump to ratfuck the election. I mean something legitimately like the example Stevens cited earlier in the thread or anyone of dozens more or a breaking point where Trump does something so cartoonishly authoritarian that anyone other than even the hardest-core Trump cultists are gonna be like, "Nah, OK we get it now".

I think it's scarier that the former is the more likely option, but either way I don't think it's going to get to a point where what we're worried about on Nov. 3rd is the election returns. If it gets to that point, either he tripped on his own dick in the most legendary fashion or someone stood up to Trump at some point and saved the republic.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Whatever it was, its gone.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Basically it was Stuart Stevens speculating what would happen if Trump -- either because he's convinced there's cheating from right-wing paranoia or as a strategy orders Chad Wolf to seize the ballots from a Dade County polling place where there's early voting on Nov. 1. There would be a loss of chain of custody that could throw the entire election into dispute two days before the election even starts.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by Rush2112 »

My smile grew while reading that. The next step is winning back statehouses, ending gerrymandering, and abolishing Citizens United.
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
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Rush2112
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by Rush2112 »

The article mentions Trump taking time to fundraise in the OC. This might be why there's a little dust in the GOP coffers:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/10 ... -cash-woes
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
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DaveInSeattle
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by DaveInSeattle »

This Biden ad was on during the World Series...



yes, that's Sam Elliot doing the voice over.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election: Joe Biden vs Whoever the Republicans Nominate

Post by tennbengal »

Was just coming to drop this here. Saw it when it aired. It's so damn good. Sam Elliott!
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