EPL 2020/21

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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Nonlinear FC
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Nonlinear FC » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:06 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:58 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Pruitt wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:52 pm
If there wasn't football on later, I may have thrown my TV to the floor.

Spurs... gonna kill me.
Wait. WTF? I stopped watching at half-time.
Same. And I had thrown a few quid on Spurs as a 'safe' bet to help my dwindling account.
I mean, they were up 3-0 15 minutes into the game. It's one thing to say a 2-0 scoreline is a trip. But 3-0? And watching the highlights, that was the score about 15 minutes left??

Jeezus.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:22 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:41 pm
Shirley wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:59 am
DaveInSeattle wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:18 am
Oh Kepa...

(evergreen post)
Sadly true.

How did he completely miss that ball?
Gonna say something kind of mean here... He really wimped out on that play. At a minimum, he could've slid both legs stacked at the ball. Even that is pretty dangerous in terms of potential outcomes.

I've talked about this before, but there has been a subtle but significant change in how goalies are taught to handle breakaways. Instead of basically bum rushing the oncoming attacker and diving at the ball when the time is right, they are now taught to bide your time, stay big, and kind of wait them out. (Think of a stand-up goalie in hockey.)

The problem I have with this approach is that it's not always applicable or the right move in certain situations. Sometimes you need to come off your line and blow somebody up (legally).

The right play for Kepa there, given that he was going to arrive either in time with attacker, or just marginally after, was to slide out with his hand/arms smothering the ball. You have to be brave there, but that's part of the job. Like I said up top, at a minimum you slide out like a defender and take the ball and then his legs.

I'm sure he's taking bloody hell from his trainer for that play.
The thing is, he came off the line fast, which was great. He beat the attacker to the ball, but like you said, he seemed to shy away from the likely contact and kind of pulled back, somehow completely missing the ball. It didn't help that Zouma, after making the bad pass, seemed to stop running, I guess assuming for some reason that Kepa would clean it up.

I was hoping that with the break between seasons and Chelsea signing a new goalie that Kepa would have reset his mind and become a better, more aggressive goalie. But now, I'm not sure he's redeemable. He's simply lost confidence and it's not clear that it's ever coming back.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Nonlinear FC » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:10 pm

Shirley wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:22 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:41 pm
Shirley wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:59 am
DaveInSeattle wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:18 am
Oh Kepa...

(evergreen post)
Sadly true.

How did he completely miss that ball?
Gonna say something kind of mean here... He really wimped out on that play. At a minimum, he could've slid both legs stacked at the ball. Even that is pretty dangerous in terms of potential outcomes.

I've talked about this before, but there has been a subtle but significant change in how goalies are taught to handle breakaways. Instead of basically bum rushing the oncoming attacker and diving at the ball when the time is right, they are now taught to bide your time, stay big, and kind of wait them out. (Think of a stand-up goalie in hockey.)

The problem I have with this approach is that it's not always applicable or the right move in certain situations. Sometimes you need to come off your line and blow somebody up (legally).

The right play for Kepa there, given that he was going to arrive either in time with attacker, or just marginally after, was to slide out with his hand/arms smothering the ball. You have to be brave there, but that's part of the job. Like I said up top, at a minimum you slide out like a defender and take the ball and then his legs.

I'm sure he's taking bloody hell from his trainer for that play.
The thing is, he came off the line fast, which was great. He beat the attacker to the ball, but like you said, he seemed to shy away from the likely contact and kind of pulled back, somehow completely missing the ball. It didn't help that Zouma, after making the bad pass, seemed to stop running, I guess assuming for some reason that Kepa would clean it up.

I was hoping that with the break between seasons and Chelsea signing a new goalie that Kepa would have reset his mind and become a better, more aggressive goalie. But now, I'm not sure he's redeemable. He's simply lost confidence and it's not clear that it's ever coming back.
Right. The point I'm making in that second and third paragraph is that there's been this shift that has introduced some level of a potential cop out for this generation of goalies. You are correct, he came off quick. The way I was taught, once you commit to coming off your line like that, you gotta take the ball. There's no side-leg slide tackle nonsense.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:14 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:10 pm
Right. The point I'm making in that second and third paragraph is that there's been this shift that has introduced some level of a potential cop out for this generation of goalies. You are correct, he came off quick. The way I was taught, once you commit to coming off your line like that, you gotta take the ball. There's no side-leg slide tackle nonsense.
The vast majority of goalies at that level either slide and kick that ball and then take the attacking player out or they jump on it with their hands and chest, like you said. I don't think Kepa is representative right now of modern goalie play.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:26 am



This was the first video I pulled up on a search. I'm not expecting you to watch it, but I'll tell you this is fundamentally different than how I was taught to play a breakaway.

Not arguing the point... I think you are right. I'm just trying to provide the background for what I was rambling about.

/rabbit hole
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:38 am

To be clear, I wasn't trying to argue with you. You surely know a lot more than I do. I'm just saying most (all?) goalies wouldn't play that the way Kepa did (or didn't, actually).
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by P.D.X. » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:42 am

The DOGSO rules were solidified what, 5-7 years ago? Seems like the current technique is to stem the chance of 'keepers getting red cards if they go bat-out-of-hell at the attackers knees.

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:47 am

You know, the one modern goalie thing I do wonder about is punching the ball. I swear goalies do this way more than they used it. A lot of EPL goals seem to be scored on rebounds after a goalie blocks or punches a ball right into the box. I always wonder why it seems prefered to block a shot out into the box rather than trying to catch it. I know shots are coming hard and you might not be able to catch cleanly, but if the goalie's body is behind the ball, isn't a missed or bobble catch still better, or at least no worse than, just punching it back into the box?
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Pruitt » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:52 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:06 pm
P.D.X. wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:58 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:50 pm
Pruitt wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:52 pm
If there wasn't football on later, I may have thrown my TV to the floor.

Spurs... gonna kill me.
Wait. WTF? I stopped watching at half-time.
Same. And I had thrown a few quid on Spurs as a 'safe' bet to help my dwindling account.
I mean, they were up 3-0 15 minutes into the game. It's one thing to say a 2-0 scoreline is a trip. But 3-0? And watching the highlights, that was the score about 15 minutes left??

Jeezus.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by The Sybian » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:00 pm

Shirley wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:47 am
You know, the one modern goalie thing I do wonder about is punching the ball. I swear goalies do this way more than they used it. A lot of EPL goals seem to be scored on rebounds after a goalie blocks or punches a ball right into the box. I always wonder why it seems prefered to block a shot out into the box rather than trying to catch it. I know shots are coming hard and you might not be able to catch cleanly, but if the goalie's body is behind the ball, isn't a missed or bobble catch still better, or at least no worse than, just punching it back into the box?
I think the modern balls move a lot faster and have much more swerve on them, not to mention players have gotten stronger and technique has improved. I think it's much harder to catch and control balls than it was 10-15 years ago. If you misplay a ball close to you, it's a much easier tap in, so I think punching it away from danger is the best option if it is a difficult catch. It seems like they would be able to catch some they punch away, but maybe they decide before the ball gets to them, and it didn't swerve as much. I don't know.

As for the breakaway technique, I learned the same way NL described. I think in the professional game, players have gotten too good at dragging a leg and drawing the penalty, or dribbling around the goalie. If you commit to dive at the ball on their feet, you best not miss.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:32 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:42 am
The DOGSO rules were solidified what, 5-7 years ago? Seems like the current technique is to stem the chance of 'keepers getting red cards if they go bat-out-of-hell at the attackers knees.
Sure, but I see a lot of clumsy challenges now because guys basically start to get rounded and the keeper has no choice but to quasi-tackle the guy.

If you're taking the ball before you blow the dude up (and there's no reason to go for a guys knees if you're doing it right) there shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Steve of phpBB » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:34 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:00 pm
Shirley wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:47 am
You know, the one modern goalie thing I do wonder about is punching the ball. I swear goalies do this way more than they used it. A lot of EPL goals seem to be scored on rebounds after a goalie blocks or punches a ball right into the box. I always wonder why it seems prefered to block a shot out into the box rather than trying to catch it. I know shots are coming hard and you might not be able to catch cleanly, but if the goalie's body is behind the ball, isn't a missed or bobble catch still better, or at least no worse than, just punching it back into the box?
I think the modern balls move a lot faster and have much more swerve on them, not to mention players have gotten stronger and technique has improved. I think it's much harder to catch and control balls than it was 10-15 years ago. If you misplay a ball close to you, it's a much easier tap in, so I think punching it away from danger is the best option if it is a difficult catch. It seems like they would be able to catch some they punch away, but maybe they decide before the ball gets to them, and it didn't swerve as much. I don't know.
I've been hearing about how goalies are doing way more punching than they used to - and more than they should - for nearly 20 years now.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:44 pm

Shirley wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:47 am
You know, the one modern goalie thing I do wonder about is punching the ball. I swear goalies do this way more than they used it. A lot of EPL goals seem to be scored on rebounds after a goalie blocks or punches a ball right into the box. I always wonder why it seems prefered to block a shot out into the box rather than trying to catch it. I know shots are coming hard and you might not be able to catch cleanly, but if the goalie's body is behind the ball, isn't a missed or bobble catch still better, or at least no worse than, just punching it back into the box?
This is a solid observation. They 1000 percent punch the ball way more than they used to and it's what Syb said -- the modern ball is built to swerve and knuckle WAAAAAY more than in the 80s and before that.

I can't remember which World Cup started the now traditional complaint about whatever new ball was being put in the mix. Maybe 98? Anyways, they introduce a new ball every 4 years and keepers go apeshit because it does ridiculous in the air. And they're increasingly slick, which also sucks. The old leather panel balls would move, but were pretty predictable and they very rarely knuckled on you.

Anyways, the way to break/dislocate a finger is to try and catch a ball with proper technique (W) as it's swerving/dipping on you. Even with the plastic inserts the fingers on gloves have now, you can pop a finger very easily.

ALSO, when you are unsure of whether you are going to handle it smoothly, the consequence of a bobbled ball is that you cough it up inside the six with attackers in your face. The theory behind punching the ball is that you ATTEMPT to punch it out of harms way (outside the 18 or over the end line.) But a lot of times, you're just reacting in a split second and you're more worried about protecting the goal/your face than you are being strategic about where the rebound goes.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by govmentchedda » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:46 pm

Maybe it's just when I started to hear about it, but seems like the Jabulani was the first one that keepers went apeshit about. I think that was WC South Africa's ball.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:17 pm

govmentchedda wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:46 pm
Maybe it's just when I started to hear about it, but seems like the Jabulani was the first one that keepers went apeshit about. I think that was WC South Africa's ball.
Yep, good recall! That was the 2010 ball and it caught Holy Hell. But at least two prior ones caught Hell, too. The ball for Germany and Korea both had goalies bitching.

But, you are correct, nothing like the Jalulani.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by The Sybian » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:36 pm

govmentchedda wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:46 pm
Maybe it's just when I started to hear about it, but seems like the Jabulani was the first one that keepers went apeshit about. I think that was WC South Africa's ball.
I remember seeing a segment on some show about the 2010 ball. It was ridiculous. It had grooves that caused it to swerve and dip even if a player tried to shoot it straight. IIRC, even some shooters were complaining that they couldn't control the ball. FIFA is just looking for some insane highlights, but it's stupid. Pretty sure that ball travelled faster than any other ball that preceded it.

Excellent point by NL on the broken fingers. I broke, jammed and sprained numerous fingers playing goal, so it should have occurred to me.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Rex » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:10 pm

Enjoying the 1970 First Division season so far
94646CBD-AABB-4A22-AA09-C913C75B2BC4.jpeg
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by DaveInSeattle » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:36 am

The placement of Scott Parker's tiebar is really disconcerting. Its too damn high!!

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by cerrano » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:16 am

DaveInSeattle wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:36 am
The placement of Scott Parker's tiebar is really disconcerting. Its too damn high!!
I’m convinced Parker is a time-traveling WW2 RAF pilot so I imagine that’s how they wore them back then.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:08 am

Well, on the good side, Chelsea has had two clean sheets in a row against strong opposition. Feels like it's been a while since they've done that.

And if literal football tackles in the box were considered fouls, they might have scored a goal against ManU yesterday.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by DaveInSeattle » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:17 am

It is a shame that Mo Salah's goal was ruled (barely) offside yesterday, because it was a thing of beauty...


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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:30 am

Shirley wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:08 am
Well, on the good side, Chelsea has had two clean sheets in a row against strong opposition. Feels like it's been a while since they've done that.

And if literal football tackles in the box were considered fouls, they might have scored a goal against ManU yesterday.
If you didn't see the Maguire play I was referring to:


This wasn't called a foul or even seriously reviewed by VAR.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by DaveInSeattle » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:39 am

Shirley wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:30 am
Shirley wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:08 am
Well, on the good side, Chelsea has had two clean sheets in a row against strong opposition. Feels like it's been a while since they've done that.

And if literal football tackles in the box were considered fouls, they might have scored a goal against ManU yesterday.
If you didn't see the Maguire play I was referring to:


This wasn't called a foul or even seriously reviewed by VAR.
And this was called a penalty...


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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:15 pm

This is certainly much better.
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If Mendy had been healthy and ready the whole season, I think Chelsea very likely would have 4 more points.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:19 am

I know I'm just watching extended highlight packages, but man... Leeds is playing a really wonderful brand of ball right now.
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Shirley » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:10 am

More on Mendy - Chelsea now has 5 straight clean sheets. Mendy personally has six(!) straight.

Sure, the competition hasn't been all strong, but clearly Chelsea has a MUCH better defense this year.
Totally Kafkaesque

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by rass » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:10 am

NBC putting Man City/Liverpool exclusively on peaCock.
I felt aswirl with warm secretions.

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by mister d » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:16 am

NBC causing my kids to ask me how much longer the game will be on because I'm monopolizing "the good TV".
rass wrote:
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Baloney » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:02 pm

Just over a year ago Southampton lost 9-0 at home to leicester, today they are top of the league

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by mister d » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:07 pm

Which means just over a year ago, the family was eating dinner at the local irish pub and I said "oh shit, Leicester is up 9-0".
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by DaveInSeattle » Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:10 pm

Gah....



Not good...

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by mister d » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:47 am

Oh wow looks like peacock is showing diving instead of soccer ha ha get it?
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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Pruitt » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:55 pm

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Re: EPL 2020/21

Post by Pruitt » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:07 pm

Hey - anyone else see that Spurs/City game?

Absolutely delightful.
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