WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
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WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I have questions, but I don't want to keep cluttering up the Presidential election thread ...
What does it mean to say a candidate or proposal or law was "progressive"?
Is there a minimum standard necessary for someone or something to be progressive? What is that standard?
Was the ACA progressive? If not, why not? Was the version the House passed in 2009 (which included a public option) progressive?
Relatedly, is it appropriate to grade on a curve? In decided whether candidate is or isn't progressive, does it matter at all how the candidate compares to others in US history? If we're talking about a law or proposal, does it matter if the law is the most progressive option that could pass Congress or get voter approval?
I personally think progressivism means improving the lot of the disadvantaged and marginalized in a nontrivial way; that the ACA was progressive (as was the CARES Act) as it materially improved the lives of millions of people; that Hillary Clinton was progressive because her policies would have materially improved the lives of millions of people; and that the policies Joe Biden is running on are also progressive for that same reason.
What does it mean to say a candidate or proposal or law was "progressive"?
Is there a minimum standard necessary for someone or something to be progressive? What is that standard?
Was the ACA progressive? If not, why not? Was the version the House passed in 2009 (which included a public option) progressive?
Relatedly, is it appropriate to grade on a curve? In decided whether candidate is or isn't progressive, does it matter at all how the candidate compares to others in US history? If we're talking about a law or proposal, does it matter if the law is the most progressive option that could pass Congress or get voter approval?
I personally think progressivism means improving the lot of the disadvantaged and marginalized in a nontrivial way; that the ACA was progressive (as was the CARES Act) as it materially improved the lives of millions of people; that Hillary Clinton was progressive because her policies would have materially improved the lives of millions of people; and that the policies Joe Biden is running on are also progressive for that same reason.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I think most of our debates here come down to whether incremental gains should be celebrated or if they're used as a tool to keep existing structures in place. The ACA had some obvious direct gains, but it still leaves tens of millions uninsured, even more under-insured and multiples of that perpetually at risk of a financially catastrophic illness/injury. So before/after you can say "look at these people who now have these amounts covered", you didn't tangibly alter a flawed system and you really can't celebrate yourself or your policy as progressive in front of the 20MM people who were deemed an allowable trade-off.
Also: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/heal ... ofits.html
Also: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/heal ... ofits.html
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
(And "well they would have fought us or stopped us, its the best we could do" isn't progressive. The best you're willing to fight for or think you're allowed to do doesn't alter the definition.)
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
In the historical sense, going back to the start of the turn of the 20th Century when the term rose to prominence, “progressive” meant fighting for the economic benefits of workers and common people as opposed to corporate and wealthy interests. That’s still a good definition in my opinion. “Progressive” does not mean “it’s okay if the same handful of insurance, tech and finance companies continue to have outsized influence if we have equal political and social rights for minorities.”
While the ACA was an improvement in certain respects it was also designed to largely keep power and money in the hands of private health insurers. That’s why it didn’t include a public option—and also why I strongly suspect Biden will quickly drop his support for a public option after the election. The CARES Act was also not very progressive in that it wound up being a huge boon to large corporations and equity holders—as evidenced by the stock market recouping virtually all of its losses—but hasn’t prevented millions from facing poverty, homelessness and food insecurity. I know that it temporarily had a poverty mitigation effect but that effect appears to have worn off while the stock market continues to boom.
While the ACA was an improvement in certain respects it was also designed to largely keep power and money in the hands of private health insurers. That’s why it didn’t include a public option—and also why I strongly suspect Biden will quickly drop his support for a public option after the election. The CARES Act was also not very progressive in that it wound up being a huge boon to large corporations and equity holders—as evidenced by the stock market recouping virtually all of its losses—but hasn’t prevented millions from facing poverty, homelessness and food insecurity. I know that it temporarily had a poverty mitigation effect but that effect appears to have worn off while the stock market continues to boom.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I also think you can’t deem Democrats as “progressive” based on the standard that this is the best we can get in this country while ignoring the host of other countries that have done the “unattainable.” Popular politicians have the power to shape public opinion and change the scope of what’s “possible.” If Obama and Hillary endorsed Warren early in the Democratic primary, she wins it in a landslide. But they didn’t do that because they don’t want a politician who supports the type of aggressive financial reforms she had championed to be the leader of the party. That’s also why there was never a chance that Biden would pick Warren over Harris for VP.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Nothing. Same as liberal or conservative.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
It means different things to different people...which why the Democratic party has such a hard time unifying liberals and why we have the discussion in the Presidential Race thread.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Long track lengths with self-indulgent solos and space themes?
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
That's the only definition I'll get into discussing anything about in this thread.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Flo’s employer.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
BFJ is the town wizard who runs a magic shop. He also has a golem that he has trained to attack anti-Semites.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
On one level, I think it means anti-liberal, just like conservative means anti-liberal (though for different reasons). Nobody wants to be branded with the L-word.
But that’s not quite good enough, since liberals and progressives are often on the same side. In my head at least, the liberal thinks about process more than result, while the progressive thinks about result more than process. I think that’s why they often fight even as to issues where they agree as to what the result should be.
But that’s not quite good enough, since liberals and progressives are often on the same side. In my head at least, the liberal thinks about process more than result, while the progressive thinks about result more than process. I think that’s why they often fight even as to issues where they agree as to what the result should be.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
My personal take is that it's the catch all for fundamentally altering the balance of power and imposing better treatment and more freedom for the working class. It's a far more forward thinking political perspective than what we always seem to have year in and year out.
It is to progress what revolution is to evolution.
It is to progress what revolution is to evolution.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
That's populist, no? Maybe they are similar though.Joe K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:42 pm In the historical sense, going back to the start of the turn of the 20th Century when the term rose to prominence, “progressive” meant fighting for the economic benefits of workers and common people as opposed to corporate and wealthy interests. That’s still a good definition in my opinion. “Progressive” does not mean “it’s okay if the same handful of insurance, tech and finance companies continue to have outsized influence if we have equal political and social rights for minorities.”
While the ACA was an improvement in certain respects it was also designed to largely keep power and money in the hands of private health insurers. That’s why it didn’t include a public option—and also why I strongly suspect Biden will quickly drop his support for a public option after the election. The CARES Act was also not very progressive in that it wound up being a huge boon to large corporations and equity holders—as evidenced by the stock market recouping virtually all of its losses—but hasn’t prevented millions from facing poverty, homelessness and food insecurity. I know that it temporarily had a poverty mitigation effect but that effect appears to have worn off while the stock market continues to boom.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Populism is more appealing to people than appealing to progress across the board, right? It's a tool that can be used by progressives but also by non-progressives depending on the candidate. It's a technique not an ideology.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I think of progressivism as essentially left-populism. Right-populism might have some overlap, such as anti-free trade or anti-monopoly views, but also tends to center Christianity and jingoistic patriotism, while opposing immigration. Right-populism also generally tends to be way more opposed to government regulation than left-populism.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
1. When you say the ACA didn’t include a public option, which version are you referring to? The one passed by the House - led by Nancy Pelosi - did have a public option. But it was torpedoed in the Senate by Joe Lieberman and a couple of guys from red states.Joe K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:42 pm In the historical sense, going back to the start of the turn of the 20th Century when the term rose to prominence, “progressive” meant fighting for the economic benefits of workers and common people as opposed to corporate and wealthy interests. That’s still a good definition in my opinion. “Progressive” does not mean “it’s okay if the same handful of insurance, tech and finance companies continue to have outsized influence if we have equal political and social rights for minorities.”
While the ACA was an improvement in certain respects it was also designed to largely keep power and money in the hands of private health insurers. That’s why it didn’t include a public option—and also why I strongly suspect Biden will quickly drop his support for a public option after the election. The CARES Act was also not very progressive in that it wound up being a huge boon to large corporations and equity holders—as evidenced by the stock market recouping virtually all of its losses—but hasn’t prevented millions from facing poverty, homelessness and food insecurity. I know that it temporarily had a poverty mitigation effect but that effect appears to have worn off while the stock market continues to boom.
2. Are you folks saying that to be “progressive”, the Dems should not have passed any health reform at all in 2009-10? Because the only options were (1) pass the ACA, (2) pass a more limited reform, or (3) pass nothing.
Remember, there was a big health reform effort in 1993. Hillary Clinton headed a task force that proposed a strongly liberal universal health care bill. It involved a lot more government control than the ACA ultimately did. It limited premium increases. It provided for a national health board to oversee pricing of care itself.
It touched off massive opposition and ultimately failed without even getting a vote. It made health care untouchable for 15 years (and permanently branded Hillary as a big-government liberal among people who remember the whole thing).
3. If your position is that “progressive” means refusing to take the best option that’s available at a particular time, how do you square that with the claim that progressives care about the real-life men, women, and children who would benefit from taking that best option?
Shortly after the ACA went into effect, two of our staff got bad medical diagnoses. One was MS, the other was cancer. Because of the ACA, and only because of the ACA, they didn’t have to worry about becoming uninsurable due to their pre-existing conditions. (They’re both okay now.) Are you saying the truly progressive approach would have been to leave pre-existing condition exclusions in place in 2010? How would you explain that to my secretary?
4. What’s the minimum standard for a law or candidate to be progressive? Is the fact that something better could be imagined - as with the ACA and Cares Act - enough to make something non-progressive? If so, isn’t it impossible for any law to actually be progressive, since legislation *always* involves compromise?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Also (the sub-heading of that article):mister d wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:40 pm Also: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/heal ... ofits.html
Consumers are probably entitled to millions of dollars in rebates under Obamacare rules that cap companies’ profits
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
The ACA could have been passed with a public option had Obama been willing to use the reconciliation process. But he didn’t do that because he (and his key advisors at the time) didn’t actually care about a public option very much. Also, if the party didn’t want Lieberman to torpedo good legislation, maybe Obama, et al. should have backed Ned Lamont, the more progressive challenger who beat Lieberman in a primary. What does it say about the “progressivism” of the Democratic Party that it’s leaders consistently oppose primary challenges from the left, even in a safe blue state like Connecticut against a terrible Democratic Senator like Lieberman?
ETA: I think we’ll see very soon how much the Democratic Party actually wants a public option. I’ve made my thoughts clear on what I expect to happen, even if Biden gets a Senate majority.
ETA: I think we’ll see very soon how much the Democratic Party actually wants a public option. I’ve made my thoughts clear on what I expect to happen, even if Biden gets a Senate majority.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Ha. This is perfect for my point about primary challengers. Feinstein faced a primary challenge in 2018 from Kevin DeLeon, a younger more progressive state congressman who is the son of Latino immigrants. But guess who Obama, Biden, etc. campaigned for? But I’m glad we’re having “serious talks” with Feinstein after she torpedoed any efforts to have a meaningfully challenging confirmation hearing for Barrett.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
From 2009:Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:33 am The ACA could have been passed with a public option had Obama been willing to use the reconciliation process. But he didn’t do that because he (and his key advisors at the time) didn’t actually care about a public option very much. Also, if the party didn’t want Lieberman to torpedo good legislation, maybe Obama, et al. should have backed Ned Lamont, the more progressive challenger who beat Lieberman in a primary. What does it say about the “progressivism” of the Democratic Party that it’s leaders consistently oppose primary challenges from the left, even in a safe blue state like Connecticut against a terrible Democratic Senator like Lieberman?
ETA: I think we’ll see very soon how much the Democratic Party actually wants a public option. I’ve made my thoughts clear on what I expect to happen, even if Biden gets a Senate majority.
It’s possible she was lying of course, but she appeared to want a public option at the time. And of course if Lamont had beaten Lieberman, the public option still would have been torpedoed by those other two red-state guys.Said Pelosi: "We agree with the president that a public option will keep insurance companies honest and increase competition. There is strong support in the House for a public option. In the House, all three of our bills contain a public option, as does the bill from the Senate HELP Committee
When you say that the public option could’ve been installed through reconciliation, what are you relying on for that? My understanding is that reconciliation is limited to budget matters. And I seem to recall several instances where that restriction hamstrung the ACA amendment that was passed through reconciliation.
Last edited by Steve of phpBB on Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Per Wikipedia:
Obama and the Senate could have also gotten rid of the filibuster if this were important enough to them, right? Sixty votes is a procedural hurdle not a Constitutional one. After all, that’s what I’ve been told the “most progressive Presidential candidate ever” will do in order to expand the Court, right?The public option was initially proposed for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, but was removed after Senator Joe Lieberman (I-CT) threatened a filibuster. Subsequently, the Obama White House did not include the public option into the bill passed under reconciliation.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Republicans are putting party over country!Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:54 amHa. This is perfect for my point about primary challengers. Feinstein faced a primary challenge in 2018 from Kevin DeLeon, a younger more progressive state congressman who is the son of Latino immigrants. But guess who Obama, Biden, etc. campaigned for? But I’m glad we’re having “serious talks” with Feinstein after she torpedoed any efforts to have a meaningfully challenging confirmation hearing for Barrett.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
The Markey-Kennedy race was perfect because it put the lie to any suggestion that the Party is just deferring to seniority rather than actively trying to work against having more progressive elected officials.mister d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:19 amRepublicans are putting party over country!Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:54 amHa. This is perfect for my point about primary challengers. Feinstein faced a primary challenge in 2018 from Kevin DeLeon, a younger more progressive state congressman who is the son of Latino immigrants. But guess who Obama, Biden, etc. campaigned for? But I’m glad we’re having “serious talks” with Feinstein after she torpedoed any efforts to have a meaningfully challenging confirmation hearing for Barrett.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I wonder how many people parroted the Pelosi line about not supporting challengers when she used it against AOC et all. Its not about ideology, just simply protecting the party from being torn apart from the outside, for sure.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I'm just kind of let down in a sense that the rest of the developed world has as "standard" what we have to incrementally inch toward as "progressive."
There is literally zero reason the US is at where it's at in terms of freedom and care for its citizens.
We have a $23 Trillion GDP. We can do anything we fucking want. But we'd rather be locked in never ending wars and create a caste system of upper class/lower class instead.
There is literally zero reason the US is at where it's at in terms of freedom and care for its citizens.
We have a $23 Trillion GDP. We can do anything we fucking want. But we'd rather be locked in never ending wars and create a caste system of upper class/lower class instead.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Every now and then I chuckle when I think about how the guy who spent thousands of dollars on roses for Pelosi did that Twitter thread about how Biden had “already picked Warren” as VP. Dude’s been covering politics obsessively for over 15 years but was too blinded by his hero worship of Dem leaders to see the obvious fact that the Party would never want someone as progressive as Warren that close to the top spot.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
That quote from Wikipedia doesn’t prove that the public option could have been enacted through reconciliation under the rules.Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:18 am Per Wikipedia:
Obama and the Senate could have also gotten rid of the filibuster if this were important enough to them, right? Sixty votes is a procedural hurdle not a Constitutional one. After all, that’s what I’ve been told the “most progressive Presidential candidate ever” will do in order to expand the Court, right?The public option was initially proposed for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, but was removed after Senator Joe Lieberman (I-CT) threatened a filibuster. Subsequently, the Obama White House did not include the public option into the bill passed under reconciliation.
Could the Dems have changed the rules? Sure, if they wanted to permanently destroy any remaining hope that the Senate would operate as an institution. (Which, obviously, that hope is gone now anyway.) But if the Dems had changed the rules in order to jam the unpopular health reform through, there’s every chance they’d have lost the Senate and White House and the ACA would’ve been repealed before it went into effect.
Regarding Biden as the most progressive, I guess you’re right ... “third most progressive candidate ever and most progressive in a half-century” is more accurate.
Anyway, you talk about what isn’t progressive. What is?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Kos. Gateway blog for me waaay back when.Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:45 amEvery now and then I chuckle when I think about how the guy who spent thousands of dollars on roses for Pelosi did that Twitter thread about how Biden had “already picked Warren” as VP. Dude’s been covering politics obsessively for over 15 years but was too blinded by his hero worship of Dem leaders to see the obvious fact that the Party would never want someone as progressive as Warren that close to the top spot.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I agree totally.
Sadly, I think a big part of the problem is that unlike most European countries, the US has not gone through centuries of wars and ethnic cleansing. When the European countries adopted their social welfare schemes like universal healthcare, they were ethnically homogeneous (mostly) and also had just been ground to dust in WW II.
Here, we have the racial element - they’re trying to take your stuff away.
I have no doubt that if a bill was proposed thirty or forty years ago to provide universal healthcare for God-fearin’ white folks, it would‘ve passed easily.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I think I summarized my views in the first post but if you want some specifics on effective progressive policies, I think this article from Nick Kristof on Denmark is a good start. There’s a reason why Danes consistently rate at or near the top of global surveys on happiness and quality of life.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:50 amThat quote from Wikipedia doesn’t prove that the public option could have been enacted through reconciliation under the rules.Joe K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:18 am Per Wikipedia:
Obama and the Senate could have also gotten rid of the filibuster if this were important enough to them, right? Sixty votes is a procedural hurdle not a Constitutional one. After all, that’s what I’ve been told the “most progressive Presidential candidate ever” will do in order to expand the Court, right?The public option was initially proposed for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, but was removed after Senator Joe Lieberman (I-CT) threatened a filibuster. Subsequently, the Obama White House did not include the public option into the bill passed under reconciliation.
Could the Dems have changed the rules? Sure, if they wanted to permanently destroy any remaining hope that the Senate would operate as an institution. (Which, obviously, that hope is gone now anyway.) But if the Dems had changed the rules in order to jam the unpopular health reform through, there’s every chance they’d have lost the Senate and White House and the ACA would’ve been repealed before it went into effect.
Regarding Biden as the most progressive, I guess you’re right ... “third most progressive candidate ever and most progressive in a half-century” is more accurate.
Anyway, you talk about what isn’t progressive. What is?
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Yes! That’s exactly my point!
A critical mass of American voters don’t want their stuff taken away to benefit minorities. So a plan proposing to do that is not going to succeed politically in the US.
(Now that Europe is facing ethnic diversity again, I don’t know if they’d create a system like that right now either.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
How strong would polling have to be for you to stop using taxes and/or deferring to racism as the basis to argue against M4A?
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
So basically if one side is yelling "fuck _____ people getting equal healthcare" and the other side is yelling "fuck you, everyone should have healthcare", what would you need to see polling or otherwise to stop playing the understanding middle?
Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Well, there was The Wagner National Health Act of 1939, then Truman's attempted to pass national health insurance in the aftermath of the war that was seen as "straight-up socialism." Medicare/aide was about your time frame away, but that was fought tooth and nail.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:03 am I have no doubt that if a bill was proposed thirty or forty years ago to provide universal healthcare for God-fearin’ white folks, it would‘ve passed easily.
Canada took about 50 years or so to enact UHC across the country, so ACA can be seen as a step in the right direction even if it was watered down to get through Congress.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Yup and even Canada's UHC is really 50/50. For example no eyes and no teeth. UHC from head to toe has been proposed by the New Democratic Party but it's not getting very far. So again, when UHC is proposed in the states it has to be defined. ACA was a step, but it also hurt people who had good plans.Rush2112 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:39 amWell, there was The Wagner National Health Act of 1939, then Truman's attempted to pass national health insurance in the aftermath of the war that was seen as "straight-up socialism." Medicare/aide was about your time frame away, but that was fought tooth and nail.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:03 am I have no doubt that if a bill was proposed thirty or forty years ago to provide universal healthcare for God-fearin’ white folks, it would‘ve passed easily.
Canada took about 50 years or so to enact UHC across the country, so ACA can be seen as a step in the right direction even if it was watered down to get through Congress.
As for the the meaning of progressive. It means to govern towards a change in attitudes, opposite of conservative. This is often discovered by science.
Gay rights is the best example I can think of. In the past it was believed that homosexuality was the work of the devil and people chose to be gay. But as science shows that is not a choice, then laws are made to protect those who cannot choose and are really equal under the law. Or racism. when the country was mostly white, it wasn't known about other races, maybe they were different, they were evil, fear of the unknown. But now that it's been shown everyone is equal, laws should 'progress' to reflect that.
UHC on the other hand is not really a progressive thing that people say it is. I don't think that definition fits. It's just a choice between should healthcare be public or private.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
Given that we have a country that hates taxes and fears disruption of their own access to medical care? Very strong. The questions would have to explicitly include personally paying increased taxes and prohibition on private insurance. And you’d need clear favorability among the politically powerful.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: WTF Does "Progressive" Mean
I’m not sure how relevant this framing is. The Dem position is that “everyone should have healthcare.”
But anyway, what I'd need to see is clear evidence that taking the “everyone gets healthcare” position would not lead to Republicans taking power. Because Republicans taking power has very bad effects on the lives of millions of people.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.