The Swamp

You don’t think companies should feel obligated to pay employees a living wage?

Nina has no time for her bullshit.



Edit:

Found this funny:

A_B wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:16 pm You don’t think companies should feel obligated to pay employees a living wage?

No. I don’t think that’d really work because a living wage depends on each employee’s personal situation, living arrangements, locale, etc. A living wage for a single parent of 3 in San Francisco is more than a living wage for a 22 year old with no debt in Provo.

My daughter’s about to turn 18. Nine bucks an hour would be a living wage for her.

I think the only workable solution is for employers to pay employees what the market bears, with a reasonable floor provided by the minimum wage. And then if there’s a gap between that and what the particular individuals need, government should make that up. And highly profitable companies should pay a lot in taxes to support that.

Edit: I think it’d be great for companies to *feel* obligated to pay more. My firm does. But I don’t think they should *be* obligated.

Also companies can pay a living wage somewhere else. Probably $2/hr

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:47 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:16 pm You don’t think companies should feel obligated to pay employees a living wage?

No. I don’t think that’d really work because a living wage depends on each employee’s personal situation, living arrangements, locale, etc. A living wage for a single parent of 3 in San Francisco is more than a living wage for a 22 year old with no debt in Provo.

My daughter’s about to turn 18. Nine bucks an hour would be a living wage for her.

I think the only workable solution is for employers to pay employees what the market bears, with a reasonable floor provided by the minimum wage. And then if there’s a gap between that and what the particular individuals need, government should make that up. And highly profitable companies should pay a lot in taxes to support that.

Edit: I think it’d be great for companies to *feel* obligated to pay more. My firm does. But I don’t think they should *be* obligated.

Is the nine dollar an hour living wage for your daughter because you’re subsidizing houses and food? Cause nine buck an hour isn’t living wage for my daughter.

A_B wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:17 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:47 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:16 pm You don’t think companies should feel obligated to pay employees a living wage?

No. I don’t think that’d really work because a living wage depends on each employee’s personal situation, living arrangements, locale, etc. A living wage for a single parent of 3 in San Francisco is more than a living wage for a 22 year old with no debt in Provo.

My daughter’s about to turn 18. Nine bucks an hour would be a living wage for her.

I think the only workable solution is for employers to pay employees what the market bears, with a reasonable floor provided by the minimum wage. And then if there’s a gap between that and what the particular individuals need, government should make that up. And highly profitable companies should pay a lot in taxes to support that.

Edit: I think it’d be great for companies to *feel* obligated to pay more. My firm does. But I don’t think they should *be* obligated.

Is the nine dollar an hour living wage for your daughter because you’re subsidizing houses and food? Cause nine buck an hour isn’t living wage for my daughter.

Yes. Plus we’re in SLC.

But even if she were out of the house on her own, I think she could get by on something like that if she lived with roommates. Maybe it’d take another buck or two. She’s making $10 or $10.50 an hour at Smashburger anyway.

She certainly wouldn’t need $15. But there are others around the country who would need a lot more than that.

Great so all we have to do is silo off the $10.50/hr jobs for kids with minimal expenses and then the single mothers of 4 can get all the $50/hr jobs that cover their living sitch.

Maybe each job review could include confirmation of parental wealth and how many people are splitting the utilities.

And also, by “what people need”, almost every CEO doesn’t need shit. They’d be more comfortable on a decade of no pay than most are on minimum wage.

Wow. Steve is getting out-progressed. Welcome to my side ;)

Ryan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:53 pm Great so all we have to do is silo off the $10.50/hr jobs for kids with minimal expenses and then the single mothers of 4 can get all the $50/hr jobs that cover their living sitch.

I think this supports my point. You can’t expect every florist, bike repair shop, and neighborhood bookstore in the country to pay every employee a wage that’d be enough to support a family of 5.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:12 pm Wow. Steve is getting out-progressed. Welcome to my side ;)

I’m calling for higher taxes on corporations and the wealthy to fund more government support for individuals and families to meet their food, housing, healthcare, and educational needs including college. It’s “share the wealth.” Isn’t that pretty textbook progressive?

Like degen days it's a minimum wage. By definition most all wages will be above that. So the minimum wage need not be a living wage. Certainly not in high cost areas. High cost areas likely have state minimum wages above the federal minimum wage anyway. The people getting paid minimum wages are more likely to have lesser costs i.e. teenagers and those new to the workforce. Few workers with any experience should be unable to find wages above minimum. They might accept it for other factors (schedule, proximity, type of work) but any decent sized company has competitive factors lifting wages. And its in their interest to do so once they've got local market power.

Yeah Miami and Deltona have the same economic situations so a state minimum wage should easily take care of that

County minimum wage?

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:03 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:12 pm Wow. Steve is getting out-progressed. Welcome to my side ;)

I’m calling for higher taxes on corporations and the wealthy to fund more government support for individuals and families to meet their food, housing, healthcare, and educational needs including college. It’s “share the wealth.” Isn’t that pretty textbook progressive?

Not enough. It's got to be $15 and everything has to universally equal.

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:04 am County minimum wage?

I think any county is welcome to raise the minimum wage. They just can't lower it from state or federal ones.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:55 am

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:04 am County minimum wage?

I think any county is welcome to raise the minimum wage. They just can't lower it from state or federal ones.

Unfortunately, counties are often unable to do that. At least not in Republican states. When Democratic counties in Republican states enact ordinances that impose minimum wages, antidiscrimination protections, or other worker protections, the state legislatures often pass laws nullifying those ordinances and removing the power of counties to impose them.

I have seen proposals that would tie the minimum wage in an area to the median rent. I think something like that is a great idea.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:00 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:55 am

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:04 am County minimum wage?

I think any county is welcome to raise the minimum wage. They just can't lower it from state or federal ones.

Unfortunately, counties are often unable to do that. At least not in Republican states. When Democratic counties in Republican states enact ordinances that impose minimum wages, antidiscrimination protections, or other worker protections, the state legislatures often pass laws nullifying those ordinances and removing the power of counties to impose them.

I have seen proposals that would tie the minimum wage in an area to the median rent. I think something like that is a great idea.

That's more a government in power problem than a mechanism problem. Democrats need to play this game. Raise minimum wage everytime they have a majority at state or county level. Republicans will never raise it but they'll never lower it either. That's instant suicide.

That happened here in Alberta. We had a conservative government for 40 years and a progressive one for 4. Guess what? Minimum wage raised from $9 to $15 in those 4 years. Conservatives are back, they're not touching that.

Even though all the small business in Alberta are dying?

Ryan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:55 am Even though all the small business in Alberta are dying?

Yup, even though small business are dying, you can't go back on a minimum wage hike. It'll be $15 for awhile, maybe another 20 years before it's mandated again but it won't be reduced. But again, it's just a minimum. Some business will pay more to get better people. Heck, even slave labor Walmart starts at $16, my wife is there.

So I don't understand why the US Federal Government is trying to shoehorn in a $15 rate, especially at the expense of other things that they want. The Federal minimum could be $0 and it wouldn't matter. This is a local government issue. Workers in counties that feel aggrieved will protest their local government. And if they keep voting in Republican governments that don't help them, too bad.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:09 amThe Federal minimum could be $0 and it wouldn't matter. This is a local government issue. Workers in counties that feel aggrieved will protest their local government. And if they keep voting in Republican governments that don't help them, too bad.

Okay, pretty much every sentence of this is wrong.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:13 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:09 amThe Federal minimum could be $0 and it wouldn't matter. This is a local government issue. Workers in counties that feel aggrieved will protest their local government. And if they keep voting in Republican governments that don't help them, too bad.

Okay, pretty much every sentence of this is wrong.

You guys in SLC just have shitty governments. There is no federal minimum wage in Canada and there is no province less than $11. Not even Newfoundland.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:48 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:13 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:09 amThe Federal minimum could be $0 and it wouldn't matter. This is a local government issue. Workers in counties that feel aggrieved will protest their local government. And if they keep voting in Republican governments that don't help them, too bad.

Okay, pretty much every sentence of this is wrong.

You guys in SLC just have shitty governments. There is no federal minimum wage in Canada and there is no province less than $11. Not even Newfoundland.

Yes. There are a bunch of states in the US with shitty GOP governments. There always have been. Which is exactly why a federal minimum wage is necessary.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:22 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:48 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:13 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:09 amThe Federal minimum could be $0 and it wouldn't matter. This is a local government issue. Workers in counties that feel aggrieved will protest their local government. And if they keep voting in Republican governments that don't help them, too bad.

Okay, pretty much every sentence of this is wrong.

You guys in SLC just have shitty governments. There is no federal minimum wage in Canada and there is no province less than $11. Not even Newfoundland.

Yes. There are a bunch of states in the US with shitty GOP governments. There always have been. Which is exactly why a federal minimum wage is necessary.

Not a federal issue. Why are you trying to save those states? They need to progress from within. Worse is that it has become an unnecessary GOP federal bargaining chip to tie Democrat hands.

There’s effort to “save those states” because there are people living in those states.

mister d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:26 pm There’s effort to “save those states” because there are people living in those states.

This.

WTF, Degen? “We’re okay with you living in abject poverty because there’s a bunch of assholes in your state”?

If the Senate was reflection of population rather than statehood, then yeah, I could get behind what Degen suggests, but that's just not our reality.

Those people voted in those assholes. You can't legislate stupidity.

But if you guys insist than ok. But $15 is obviously too high from 7.25. The Democrats should not be hamstrung because if it.

We can argue federal and states rights all day. Like why doesn't the US have a federal sales tax?

Even in the reddest of states, a quarter vote blue and then you’ve got all the disenfranchised who don’t. I’d love to split the country into two ideological sides and start over but in lieu of that happening you’re obligated to fight for everyone.

mister d wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:31 pm Even in the reddest of states, a quarter vote blue and then you’ve got all the disenfranchised who don’t. I’d love to split the country into two ideological sides and start over but in lieu of that happening you’re obligated to fight for everyone.

Yes again.

JFC Degen. What you’re saying is so silly you’ve put me and Mr. D on the same side.

It’s wrong to decide what people deserve based on statewide voting results. There are more Republican voters in solid blue California than in Texas. There are more Dem voters in Texas than New York.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:51 pmJFC Degen. What you’re saying is so silly you’ve put me and Mr. D on the same side.

This should be the takeaway, Degen.

Even the shittiest, racist but poorest “conservatives” probably have kids and if you actively fuck over the parents, you’re fucking over the kids. It’s why being on the side that cares sucks.

I agree, but you can't care about everything. That's why it sucks.

Its not the federal government's job to bail out states. Again, why doesn't the Federal government invoke a 5% sales tax and spread it to the poor. Why doesn't it cap tuition so kids aren't in debt? You've got to put pressure on idiot red state governments. Georgia is now blue because of pressure. GOP is desperately trying to cheat to keep it red, it's going to backfire. Texas is going be blue, if not in 2024 than in 2028. My fear is that the Democrats are having a civil war over a $15 minimum wage that's not feasible and not the federal government's place anyways. I fear you're going to have to compromise something big to the GOP to get $15, perhaps healthcare or immigration. But if the federal government wants to get involved, okay, how about starting with $11 by 2025. That's something some moderate GOP Senators could back without having to give up too much. Collins in Maine for example, it's already $11 in Maine.

All of your questions answer why the federal government should have more power.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:43 pmIts not the federal government's job to bail out states.

A national minimum wage isn’t bailing out states. Its helping people. In every state.

Your view was soundly rejected by a national consensus 85 years ago and has continued to be rejected by the national consensus ever since.

Friendly reminder that Florida voted for both T**** and a $15 minimum wage in the 2020 election. That $15 isn't instantaneous. It's phased in over the next 5 years.

This is nearly identical to what the federal government wants to do.

(I think Florida just takes an extra year to get there.)

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:05 pm Friendly reminder that Florida voted for both T**** and a $15 minimum wage in the 2020 election. That $15 isn't instantaneous. It's phased in over the next 5 years.

This is nearly identical to what the federal government wants to do.

(I think Florida just takes an extra year to get there.)

They also voted to re-enfranchise felons, but the outgoing Republicans enacted poll taxes to stop that mandate in its tracks.

Fuck Florida. If you still live there, you're complicit for not doing enough.

(yes, I have loved ones in FL).

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:16 pmFuck Florida. If you still live there, you're complicit for not doing enough.

I just don't see how this makes sense. To me, it's another version of the magical thinking that suggests that Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi could get X, Y, or Z through Congress if they just wanted it badly enough.

If the analogy you're making is that individual citizens are just as helpless to effect material change as the majority leaders of the Senate and House, I completely agree, Steve. We're still on the same page here.