Moral Dilemma

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The Sybian
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Moral Dilemma

Post by The Sybian »

Got woken up at 6:00am this morning as my wife's crazy friend was calling to let us know she booked vaccine appointments for us. The friend joined a few other people in town to help elderly people who were having problems booking appointments. They discovered a weird glitch in CVS' website that allowed them to book appointments when a logical approach was showing no appointments available.

So they finished booking appointments for their list of eligible people, so she started booking appointments for friends who haven't gotten vaccines yet. She told my wife other people have gone, and they don't ask you questions if you have an appointment. Long story short, neither of us feels comfortable skipping the line. I never would have considered lying on the form to get an appointment, so the fact a friends lied for us doesn't change the equation. My father had a very different opinion. He said he wouldn't condone me making an appointment, but since it's done, he wants me to get the vaccine. He played to my wife and said our job is to stay healthy to raise our kids, and since his friend just died of COVID, he was pretty powerful in his argument. We are still cancelling, but curious to hear what others would do.

Side note, it's so fucking ridiculous that this friend is so passionate about helping elderly people who can't get appointments, then she does and books appointments for ineligible people stealing the spots from people who are legit high risk.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Johnny Carwash »

I think you did the right thing by cancelling. I understand your dad's concern, but again, he is your dad and that's what you'd expect him to say.

My parents got vaccinated yesterday and I'm still processing the mental weight that has been lifted knowing they're finally safe(r). I wouldn't want to take that opportunity away from someone else their age.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by tennbengal »

I guess I will be THAT guy.

You should have kept the appt. You've got kids. They need you. Get the vaccine and do so in good conscience.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by DaveInSeattle »

I would have cancelled the appointment. I think your friends were being presumptuous that you would want to join them in taking advantage of a glitch in the system.

I certainly understand the other side though. But as long as you are following the proper masking/social distancing guidelines, you should be ok. We are close to getting out of this...you shouldn't set aside your moral compass.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by EnochRoot »

Can you and your wife do something, like volunteering somewhere that would bump you into the active phase?

That way, while the system was gamed for you, your response allows you in on an acceptable technicality?
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by brian »

If you know the appointment isn’t legitimately gotten then I wouldn’t do it. I know people our age who have gotten shots in their state because they’re considered “high risk” because of BMI or being a smoker and while that’s still a little iffy morally to me personally at least the appointment wasn’t gotten under false pretenses. I think that’s the difference.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by EdRomero »

I would have gotten it because I would have convinced myself I was getting an extra dose they wouldn't have used. I also believe the focus should be on getting as many people vaccinated as possible without over-worrying who gets it and who doesn't. I know it shouldn't be an either/or, but it seems to be.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by A_B »

Sounds like the situation my buddy did that I mentioned. And I can’t say that it’s a big deal. If they’re not checking and you can get one so could people technically ahead of you in line. We all gotta get it sooner or later so don’t sweat the when. But I also totally understand why you did what you did.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by bfj »

brian wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:03 pm If you know the appointment isn’t legitimately gotten then I wouldn’t do it. I know people our age who have gotten shots in their state because they’re considered “high risk” because of BMI or being a smoker and while that’s still a little iffy morally to me personally at least the appointment wasn’t gotten under false pretenses. I think that’s the difference.
Why is that iffy if people who are smokers or obese are at higher risk?
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Pruitt »

Tough call.

Semi-ashamed to admit that I probably would have gone in to get the vaccine.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by DSafetyGuy »

Pruitt wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:45 pm Tough call.

Semi-ashamed to admit that I probably would have gone in to get the vaccine.
Well, at your age....

Cancel it, Syb.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Keg »

I got my second shot yesterday. I got my first shot at Camp Pendleton, 2nd at Kaiser - no questions asked either time. My wife got both her shots through Kaiser, she qualified as a health care worker but no one ever asked for proof or questioned her. I say go for it.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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KEG!!!
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by bfj »

My whole family is vaccinated. 3/4 of us qualify for one reason or another. I signed up the oldest son figuring at some point the system would kick him out since he doesn’t have any conditions, but the link I used gave him an appointment. I figured they would turn him away at the site, but they didn’t bat an eye and he got his. Most of us go for our 2nd next week.

I think at this point, you take it if you can get it.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by sancarlos »

Hey welcome back Kegtron!
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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bfj wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:38 pm
brian wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:03 pm If you know the appointment isn’t legitimately gotten then I wouldn’t do it. I know people our age who have gotten shots in their state because they’re considered “high risk” because of BMI or being a smoker and while that’s still a little iffy morally to me personally at least the appointment wasn’t gotten under false pretenses. I think that’s the difference.
Why is that iffy if people who are smokers or obese are at higher risk?
I should clarify. Iffy if you’re not legitimately obese. The BMI is not necessarily accurate in all situations as we’ve discussed here before I believe. Someone who is in very good health/shape (muscled) can have a BMI of 30 and therefore “obese” and therefore eligible for the vaccine. To my mind that’s not really morally who the ability to get vaccinated early is intended for. (And then there’s ranges yet when you get to people like me who are also medically obese via BMI though ostensibly healthy but I wouldn’t feel right personally while there are still seniors struggling to get vaccinated).

All that said on some level it’s about getting shots in arms now so I don’t think it’s a really big deal. I’m talking about what I would do which is moot for the time being anyway.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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sancarlos wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:12 pm Hey welcome back Kegtron!
Thanks, SC. I’ve been lurking here and there for the last week or so. Good to be back.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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Good lord, Keg!
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by The Sybian »

I appreciate the feedback. I know a lot of people are skipping the line, but I just can't do it. The do-gooder friend got her and her husband vaccines super early. Her story is that she tried to sign up her parents, but put in her name as the person filling out the form, then her parents' birthdates. She said she went with her parents, thinking her parents would get the vaccine, but they shot them down, and gave the vaccine to her and her husband. What's really funny is that there is another guy in town who is getting more credit for helping the elderly. As of last week, he booked 75 appointments for elderly people, and the Mayor wrote a post about him on FB. I think our friend is jealous, and in a competition to get more appointments. She is trashing the other guy, claiming he hacked into a health system's computers or has a token or something. She is also trashing the Mayor and Town Administrator as corrupt for praising this guy. She heard the Wall Street Journal interviewed the guy, and I think she signed us up to pad her numbers.

I am a little torn, as the NJ registry asks if you have or ever had the following conditions ... one being a BMI of over 30. My BMI was over 30 in the past, but I felt weird saying yes, because the other categories were cancer, diabetes, heart disease... so formerly being obese on a bullshit scale seemed a fucked up way to get bumped up. On CVS' question, you have to be currently over 30 BMI. It also lists "moderate to severe asthma". I was diagnosed with exercise induced asthma, but it's very minor. Can anyone question it? I doubt it, but I can't read all the elderly people or children of elderly complaining that they can't book appointments and take one from them.

And again, the reason legitimately eligible people can't get vaccines is because these do-gooders are hording the appointments.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Ryan »

I’m sure it differs from site to site, let alone place to place, but there are lots of people here who are going with their parents or their healthcare worker spouse and asking if they can get vaccinated. They aren’t stealing another person’s spot because there’s always more shots than people every day for various reasons.

So the part about being signed up shadily by someone else without being asked would really eat at me too but I’d go anyway. If you get cold feet, just grab the needle, peel out and head for the nearest senior center.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Johnnie »

EnochRoot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:58 pm Can you and your wife do something, like volunteering somewhere that would bump you into the active phase?

That way, while the system was gamed for you, your response allows you in on an acceptable technicality?
My friend in AZ is doing just that for him and his family. 4 or so volunteer days for all of them to get it.

As to this, Syb, do you have stats for your area and who has been vaccinated? Is there are large population of "must receive first" that you know of? Can you get the info? Have you been able to gauge when your "group" would be eligible?

Basically, unless the shortage is so severe and only a fraction of people have been vaccinated, I don't think it would be a big deal if you "jumped the line." Clearly there's a lack of control at the moment. But I understand you not taking the opportunity.

I'd just make some calls first. I feel like there's a shelf life to the vaccines that's not disclosed. It's possible that being signed up and then not getting it could waste a couple shots.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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Keg wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:27 pm
sancarlos wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:12 pm Hey welcome back Kegtron!
Thanks, SC. I’ve been lurking here and there for the last week or so. Good to be back.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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He absolutely did.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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I have still a few versions of the hef avatar on my work computer. I’ll pull one up this week.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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Keg wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:59 pm I have still a few versions of the hef avatar on my work computer. I’ll pull one up this week.
I was Hef in a version. Probably an avatar bet.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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I digress, but it’s funny to think how many of us have a slightly different user name than when we were first active in the Swamp.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Steve of phpBB »

I think you did the right thing, Syb.

Welcome back, Keg. Can’t wait to see Hef reappear.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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brian wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:22 pm
bfj wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:38 pm
brian wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:03 pm If you know the appointment isn’t legitimately gotten then I wouldn’t do it. I know people our age who have gotten shots in their state because they’re considered “high risk” because of BMI or being a smoker and while that’s still a little iffy morally to me personally at least the appointment wasn’t gotten under false pretenses. I think that’s the difference.
Why is that iffy if people who are smokers or obese are at higher risk?
I should clarify. Iffy if you’re not legitimately obese. The BMI is not necessarily accurate in all situations as we’ve discussed here before I believe. Someone who is in very good health/shape (muscled) can have a BMI of 30 and therefore “obese” and therefore eligible for the vaccine. To my mind that’s not really morally who the ability to get vaccinated early is intended for. (And then there’s ranges yet when you get to people like me who are also medically obese via BMI though ostensibly healthy but I wouldn’t feel right personally while there are still seniors struggling to get vaccinated).

All that said on some level it’s about getting shots in arms now so I don’t think it’s a really big deal. I’m talking about what I would do which is moot for the time being anyway.
This was my thing last week, being mad at a few of my friends using the BMI thing to sign up, when they're not really obese, while I still couldn't find an appt. for my dad. I haven't even tried for myself yet so as to "wait my turn" though my wife has as an essential worker. After watching The Daily Show this week, I got mad again because two of the friends are coming from the burbs into Philly to get their shots, which in my mind is stealing it from people in that neighborhood who may not have the online means to sign up for their shot. I've taken to calling their vaccination their white privilege shot.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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Johnnie wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:26 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:58 pm Can you and your wife do something, like volunteering somewhere that would bump you into the active phase?

That way, while the system was gamed for you, your response allows you in on an acceptable technicality?
My friend in AZ is doing just that for him and his family. 4 or so volunteer days for all of them to get it.

As to this, Syb, do you have stats for your area and who has been vaccinated? Is there are large population of "must receive first" that you know of? Can you get the info? Have you been able to gauge when your "group" would be eligible?

Basically, unless the shortage is so severe and only a fraction of people have been vaccinated, I don't think it would be a big deal if you "jumped the line." Clearly there's a lack of control at the moment. But I understand you not taking the opportunity.

I'd just make some calls first. I feel like there's a shelf life to the vaccines that's not disclosed. It's possible that being signed up and then not getting it could waste a couple shots.
In NJ, you sign up at various locations (county sites, CVS, Rite Aid...) when they are getting more vaccines, spots open on the website. The appointments book super fast, and when they are filled, thats it. If you cancel, I believe it opens a spot on the website, so someone else can take it. My in laws got a call from CVS to come in same day, as they had extra shots.

I don’t think it’ll be long before NJ opens up eligibility, especially since they have 70,000 J&J doses coming next week. Population of the state is 8 or 8 million, 1.2 million already vaccinated, and they keep opening more locations. When everyone is eligible, I imagine it’ll be impossible to get an appointment for a few weeks, but I’d guess by May it’ll be doable. Also need to factor in all the people who don’t want a vaccine.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Rex »

I guess I'm the asshole here because I don't see the dilemma. Everyone getting the shot is a good thing, even if it's you.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Steve of phpBB »

Rex wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:56 pm I guess I'm the asshole here because I don't see the dilemma. Everyone getting the shot is a good thing, even if it's you.
But the supply is still finite right now. Syb getting the shot is definitely a good thing, but I think a 66-year-old or whoever getting the shot is probably a better thing.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Keg »

From my experience, Kaiser in Orange County has a ton of vaccines. There are a lot of available appointments online and the wait times are really short in the clinic.

Different story in LA county (and elsewhere around the country).
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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So I just got an email from my dad an hour ago. My parents just received their second dose on Thursday at 5p. He had some arm soreness that evening, and into the AM on Friday. He decided to cancel his golf game that AM because he felt he should be at home in the event our mom fell ill.

Fast forward to 10a, and he's shaking with the chills. So he sip water, and proceeds to read an article and nod off at his desk. He woke up at 2p and decided to take a nap in bed. He woke up from that nap at 10a today. He's feeling better. He had a banana for breakfast.

And the second dose didn't affect my mother at all (family joke about the virus having nothing on Genghis Mom)...
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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EnochRoot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:57 pm So I just got an email from my dad an hour ago. My parents just received their second dose on Thursday at 5p. He had some arm soreness that evening, and into the AM on Friday. He decided to cancel his golf game that AM because he felt he should be at home in the event our mom fell ill.

Fast forward to 10a, and he's shaking with the chills. So he sip water, and proceeds to read an article and nod off at his desk. He woke up at 2p and decided to take a nap in bed. He woke up from that nap at 10a today. He's feeling better. He had a banana for breakfast.

And the second dose didn't affect my mother at all (family joke about the virus having nothing on Genghis Mom)...
Moderna? Seems like everyone I talk to that had side effects was Moderna. Chills, fever, naseau, extreme fatigue.. All side effects of your immune system kicking into high gear. Seems to last about a day and then you are good.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by Johnnie »

I let you guys know this week about my second dose of Moderna. Everyone seems to get the one day feel shitty issues. We'll see.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by bfj »

The Sybian wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:26 am
EnochRoot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:57 pm So I just got an email from my dad an hour ago. My parents just received their second dose on Thursday at 5p. He had some arm soreness that evening, and into the AM on Friday. He decided to cancel his golf game that AM because he felt he should be at home in the event our mom fell ill.

Fast forward to 10a, and he's shaking with the chills. So he sip water, and proceeds to read an article and nod off at his desk. He woke up at 2p and decided to take a nap in bed. He woke up from that nap at 10a today. He's feeling better. He had a banana for breakfast.

And the second dose didn't affect my mother at all (family joke about the virus having nothing on Genghis Mom)...
Moderna? Seems like everyone I talk to that had side effects was Moderna. Chills, fever, naseau, extreme fatigue.. All side effects of your immune system kicking into high gear. Seems to last about a day and then you are good.
My mom and my wife had tough nights after their 2nd vaccine and they were both given Pfizer.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by degenerasian »

I would have taken the shot. There are thousands of shots. It's not like there's 5 and you bumped a senior. I wouldn't purposely deceive but since I'm already signed up, I'd go.

You guys are way ahead of us. Here in Alberta I might not get vaccinated until 2022.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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The Sybian wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:26 am
EnochRoot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:57 pm So I just got an email from my dad an hour ago. My parents just received their second dose on Thursday at 5p. He had some arm soreness that evening, and into the AM on Friday. He decided to cancel his golf game that AM because he felt he should be at home in the event our mom fell ill.

Fast forward to 10a, and he's shaking with the chills. So he sip water, and proceeds to read an article and nod off at his desk. He woke up at 2p and decided to take a nap in bed. He woke up from that nap at 10a today. He's feeling better. He had a banana for breakfast.

And the second dose didn't affect my mother at all (family joke about the virus having nothing on Genghis Mom)...
Moderna? Seems like everyone I talk to that had side effects was Moderna. Chills, fever, naseau, extreme fatigue.. All side effects of your immune system kicking into high gear. Seems to last about a day and then you are good.
Yes, Moderna. I shouldn’t have omitted that fact!
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Post by sancarlos »

degenerasian wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:49 am I would have taken the shot. There are thousands of shots. It's not like there's 5 and you bumped a senior. I wouldn't purposely deceive but since I'm already signed up, I'd go.

You guys are way ahead of us. Here in Alberta I might not get vaccinated until 2022.
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Re: Moral Dilemma

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bfj wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:32 am
The Sybian wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:26 am
EnochRoot wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:57 pm So I just got an email from my dad an hour ago. My parents just received their second dose on Thursday at 5p. He had some arm soreness that evening, and into the AM on Friday. He decided to cancel his golf game that AM because he felt he should be at home in the event our mom fell ill.

Fast forward to 10a, and he's shaking with the chills. So he sip water, and proceeds to read an article and nod off at his desk. He woke up at 2p and decided to take a nap in bed. He woke up from that nap at 10a today. He's feeling better. He had a banana for breakfast.

And the second dose didn't affect my mother at all (family joke about the virus having nothing on Genghis Mom)...
Moderna? Seems like everyone I talk to that had side effects was Moderna. Chills, fever, naseau, extreme fatigue.. All side effects of your immune system kicking into high gear. Seems to last about a day and then you are good.
My mom and my wife had tough nights after their 2nd vaccine and they were both given Pfizer.
Yeah, my wife had Moderna and my mom Pfizer ... both had reactions for about a day soon after their second shots.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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