Copa Oro: It's Not Pretty, But It's Ours

[The Sybian]

Really happy for Hoppe to get one. Kid worked his ass off and had some flashes of excitement.

[tennbengal]

the announcers were curiously banging on Hoppe before that. And have spent so much time lauding acosta I am wondering if they are related to him.

[tennbengal]

Now a relevant question for the US for their next opponent...

[The Sybian]

the announcers were curiously banging on Hoppe before that. And have spent so much time lauding acosta I am wondering if they are related to him.

I think Acosta had a great game. I don’t think he is good enough against better teams, but he was great tonight.

[tennbengal]

He was…ok? His touches remain lead and his passes trying to link up are inaccurate at best. He did defend well. But whoever was on color was pushing to play him equal with or over Tyler Adams in the upcoming cycle and lol. No.

[The Sybian]

He was…ok? His touches remain lead and his passes trying to link up are inaccurate at best. He did defend well. But whoever was on color was pushing to play him equal with or over Tyler Adams in the upcoming cycle and lol. No.

I guess I just looked at his defensive play. I expect zero from him offensively, and his well struck volley that went over the bar was more than I expected. I think that was Stu Holden who said Acosta deserves playing time for WCQs. No way in hell does he deserve a minute at Adam's expense, but if Adams goes down... maybe? Like I said, he flat out isn't good enough against good teams, but if they need someone against an El Salvador, I think he can slot in.

Hoppe might be able to develop into a legit player. He showed no fear and went for it all game. He needs to learn that when a ref ain't giving you calls, stop flopping or looking for the foul. It'd be fun to see him play with Pulisic, Reyna and the rest of the A-team ball handling speedy creative types.

[Nonlinear FC]

I reset/leveled my expectations for this team 10 minutes into Haiti, so last night (really, watched the second half this morning, tbh) was about what I expect.

They have absolutely nothing in the middle of the park going forward. Before a short burst got him a few more, Dike was sitting on 2 touches until right before he got subbed off. Yes, he needs to drop back some, but Hoppe was already filling that role. The issue is that Busio, while decent with his back to the goal... He's doing that 70 yards from goal for the most part.

Obviously, as covered, Acosta provides zero offense and is often more of a liability in possession. And, again, Llegget isn't a guy that can take on better players.

There was maybe 2 or 3 times over 90 minutes where we tried to play a ball on the ground in the final 3rd. Almost exclusively on the flanks. Every other ball was launched into the box. And that's... fine. That's this team's level.

It's just a fucking bummer to watch when we know what the higher level team is capable of doing.

=-=-=-=-=

Don't know if you guys have watched Qatar, but they are very VERY good team. They possess very well and move off the ball better than anyone this US team has played so far. Going to just say it, would not be surprised if we lose 2-0.

[Nonlinear FC]

Would also say that Acosta played pretty well last night, despite my comment on his offense. He was fine with the ball (with at least 3 Acosta-esque scratch your head turnovers) and was really good on defense.

[The Sybian]

Would also say that Acosta played pretty well last night, despite my comment on his offense. He was fine with the ball (with at least 3 Acosta-esque scratch your head turnovers) and was really good on defense.

I haven't seen enough of Busio, but I think the formation would have been better with Acosta and Busio switched. Busio seems to have more skill on the ball and seems like he could add more offensively than Acosta. Regardless, this team is struggling to connect the forwards to the midfielders. Roldan seemed a little better when he came on. Zardes got off a great shot on his first touch on the field and I was optimistic his speed might be what we needed, but that was the end of his contribution. Unless you want to call Zardes not being able to get a touch on the ball Hoppe buried a contribution.

[Nonlinear FC]

Well, that's pretty funny...

Acosta was playing the 6 spot. The fact that you saw Busio so far back so much was exactly what I'm talking about. He's supposed to be up with Llegget and those guys are playing dual 8 roles. Llegget is a complete waste when it comes to building the offense. He very rarely (never?) takes on a defender if they are pressing him. He passes it laterally or turns around and plays it back.

The entire American/MLS soccer mentality needs to change. The coaches value possession and devalue creativity. So you essentially had 2 or 3 guys playing right above the defensive line, with ZERO connection to the forwards. Our only offense was playing it out wide to Shaq Moore and the occasional overlap from Vines. It's incredibly easy to predict, especially for a relatively organized team like JAM.

The reason so many of us are so excited for the European-based players is that it's such an obvious departure from the conservative (boring as shit) style that this Gold Cup team is built around.

It's why we're all loving Hoppe. He can play with that higher level squad. And, btw, the reason he started coughing up the ball in the second was, IMO, because he was getting super frustrated with the players around him. Stu Holden giving him shit was very annoying. Also, extremely satisfying when he scored as he was about to be subbed off.

[The Sybian]

Well, that's pretty funny...

Acosta was playing the 6 spot. The fact that you saw Busio so far back so much was exactly what I'm talking about. He's supposed to be up with Llegget and those guys are playing dual 8 roles. Llegget is a complete waste when it comes to building the offense. He very rarely (never?) takes on a defender if they are pressing him. He passes it laterally or turns around and plays it back.

The entire American/MLS soccer mentality needs to change. The coaches value possession and devalue creativity. So you essentially had 2 or 3 guys playing right above the defensive line, with ZERO connection to the forwards. Our only offense was playing it out wide to Shaq Moore and the occasional overlap from Vines. It's incredibly easy to predict, especially for a relatively organized team like JAM.

The reason so many of us are so excited for the European-based players is that it's such an obvious departure from the conservative (boring as shit) style that this Gold Cup team is built around.

It's why we're all loving Hoppe. He can play with that higher level squad. And, btw, the reason he started coughing up the ball in the second was, IMO, because he was getting super frustrated with the players around him. Stu Holden giving him shit was very annoying. Also, extremely satisfying when he scored as he was about to be subbed off.

The formation charts I saw (including the one on the previous page in this thread) all had Busio behind Acosta. I didn't see either of them moving forward much, and Lleget was invisible for most of the match.

[Nonlinear FC]

Cool cool..

Just from a "this is what they are built to do" it's a little weird to put Busio behind Acosta in that formation. So... that's interesting. It certainly didn't work, however they lined up. Maybe they were both told to sit back and play dual 6 roles.

At some point in the second, Busio started pushing a little higher, so that was probably a switch made at HT.

ETA - The formation graphics are often a little off from reality. Last game, they had Sands playing CB in a 5 back formation. The reality of that formation was Sands was clearly playing the 6, right above the defense.

[wlu_lax6]

So Turner has done a very nice job. Doing a good job as a shot stopper and seems to make good decisions playing out of the back with his feet. You can't tell what kind of organization/leadership he brings from the back but not hurting his place on the depth chart.

[Nonlinear FC]

100 agree that he has solidified his #3 spot. Excellent shot stopper.

Would tweak what you said about his ability to play out of the back. He has been told to launch the ball when they are being pressed, because he has REALLY bad touch. Like, comically bad. First couple of games when they tried to play out of the back against a press, he turned it over constantly.

(If folks don't know his backstory, he didn't start playing the position until he was 14 or so. Was a baseball/basketball guy. The fact that he's as good as he is starting that late is remarkable. But learning to play with the ball at your feet at that age? Woof.)

[wlu_lax6]

100 agree that he has solidified his #3 spot. Excellent shot stopper.

Would tweak what you said about his ability to play out of the back. He has been told to launch the ball when they are being pressed, because he has REALLY bad touch. Like, comically bad. First couple of games when they tried to play out of the back against a press, he turned it over constantly.

(If folks don't know his backstory, he didn't start playing the position until he was 14 or so. Was a baseball/basketball guy. The fact that he's as good as he is starting that late is remarkable. But learning to play with the ball at your feet at that age? Woof.)

Well I look at who is competing with for the #3
Hamid- shot blocker but not nearly as good as he used to be and not known for foot work
Ochoa- may be go El Tri...not sure he plays out of the back better
Son of Jurgen- Never seemed to jump up to the next level
Sean J- has been down a bit
Guzan- not the same Guzan we saw in his first years back in the MLS. Now he is known for little black beads of turf stuck to the sweaty bald dome. Also not known for the ball on foot type player.

If only we could find a Rene Higuita or Campos.

[tennbengal]

It's why we're all loving Hoppe. He can play with that higher level squad. And, btw, the reason he started coughing up the ball in the second was, IMO, because he was getting super frustrated with the players around him. Stu Holden giving him shit was very annoying. Also, extremely satisfying when he scored as he was about to be subbed off.

I could not agree with this more. Holden can go fuck himself.

[Nonlinear FC]

I get that they pay Lalas and Holden and all the others to IGNORE the massive gap (that is widening) between guys that go to Europe (top 5 or 6) and the guys that are still in MLS. I get it who signs their check.

But you just lack credibility when you pretend pluggers like Llegett aren't who we know they are. I barely listen anymore.

[tennbengal]

I get that they pay Lalas and Holden and all the others to IGNORE the massive gap (that is widening) between guys that go to Europe (top 5 or 6) and the guys that are still in MLS. I get it who signs their check.

But you just lack credibility when you pretend pluggers like Llegett aren't who we know they are. I barely listen anymore.

It’s simply flat insulting. The hilarious thing is the average US soccer fan is WAY more sophisticated and knowledgeable than they were 20 years ago and can immediately smell the bullshit.

[Rams Fanny]

I'm thinking tickets for the Final will be downright reasonable (currently north of $200 on Ticketmaster) if we somehow end up with a Quatar-Canada matchup.

[The Sybian]

I get that they pay Lalas and Holden and all the others to IGNORE the massive gap (that is widening) between guys that go to Europe (top 5 or 6) and the guys that are still in MLS. I get it who signs their check.

But you just lack credibility when you pretend pluggers like Llegett aren't who we know they are. I barely listen anymore.

Stu: "This team is really tough to watch, John. No creativity, no technical ability and horrifically stupid defensive mistakes. If they weren't paying us to be here, there is no way I'd watch this dreck."

John: "Hold on, Stu, there is ANOTHER giveaway by Pines, but the Qatar players just can't hit the net."

Stu: "As I was saying, this is just dreadful to watch, and if the US somehow manages not to lose to a 4th rate nation with a population the size of Baltimore, then we have to suffer through one more match. God I can't wait for this tournament to be over!"

[mister d]

I get that they pay Lalas and Holden and all the others to IGNORE the massive gap (that is widening) between guys that go to Europe (top 5 or 6) and the guys that are still in MLS. I get it who signs their check.

But you just lack credibility when you pretend pluggers like Llegett aren't who we know they are. I barely listen anymore.

It’s simply flat insulting. The hilarious thing is the average US soccer fan is WAY more sophisticated and knowledgeable than they were 20 years ago and can immediately smell the bullshit.

So lets say, hypothetically, I have a friend who doesn't understand the gap between the A and B and thinks its more like the NBA having to send Lillard instead of LeBron. What's the proper way to balance USA B versus lesser nation's A like we had in Olympic qualifying and the Gold Cup? I assume betting odds don't do much since money will come heavier on USA than Jamaica no matter who is playing.

[Nonlinear FC]

Start with shifting your hypothetical by not pulling players that all play in the best league on the planet and pick, what... A league that is realistically 15-20 leagues below in quality. Philipines? I don't know international pro leagues well enough.

Look, it's not just "oh, those guys play in MLS, they suck." I'm not an anti-MLS snob. But there is an obvious, glaring lack of technical ability on display. A guy like Legget just doesn't have the ability to take a ball on the counter and make a positive, dangerous or incisive move forward... He's a counter killer. And he's the captain of this team.

Contrast that with what you have in your mind about Pulisic, McKennie, Reyna, Adams, Dest, Musah and others on the A-team. It's night and day, not slight variation. They get the ball on the counter and it's balls to the wall, go go go...

=-0=-===

There's really no way to fix the player pool. It if weren't for the Gold Cup, we wouldn't really be talking about this, because we have an incredible player pool of at least 20 guys that are going to be A level once the real shit starts in September. The concern a lot of us have is that guys like Acosta and Llegett are gonna see time because Berhalter is a typical, conservative manager who has ridiculous "favorites" who keep turning up. The European guys are all trying to slot in and/or solidify roles and at the end of the day, Gold Cup is kind of bullshit (please see: Qatar in the semis.) Unlike Euros and Copa, club teams are not gonna be cool if you pressure them to release players. The tournament also runs too deep into the summer. Those Euro/Copa guys at least had a few weeks to rest before preseason.

[wlu_lax6]

I thought Paul A had the arm band in the last game?

The Gold Cup used to matter every other edition when the Confederations Cup space was in play (as a trial run for the World Cup hosts).

I am less concerned about Qatar. The Copa America has had guests years. In fact if the US was committed to sending an A team they would be in that competition.

[Nonlinear FC]

I thought Paul A had the arm band in the last game?

The Gold Cup used to matter every other edition when the Confederations Cup space was in play (as a trial run for the World Cup hosts).

I am less concerned about Qatar. The Copa America has had guests years. In fact if the US was committed to sending an A team they would be in that competition.

He did, first game back off injury. (Also, kind of making my point about this team and skill level.)

[The Sybian]

I get that they pay Lalas and Holden and all the others to IGNORE the massive gap (that is widening) between guys that go to Europe (top 5 or 6) and the guys that are still in MLS. I get it who signs their check.

But you just lack credibility when you pretend pluggers like Llegett aren't who we know they are. I barely listen anymore.

It’s simply flat insulting. The hilarious thing is the average US soccer fan is WAY more sophisticated and knowledgeable than they were 20 years ago and can immediately smell the bullshit.

So lets say, hypothetically, I have a friend who doesn't understand the gap between the A and B and thinks its more like the NBA having to send Lillard instead of LeBron. What's the proper way to balance USA B versus lesser nation's A like we had in Olympic qualifying and the Gold Cup? I assume betting odds don't do much since money will come heavier on USA than Jamaica no matter who is playing.

I think a better example would be if there is an Olympic basketball team that is mostly NBA players, but those guys are literally the only guys in their country in the NBA. I don't know shit about basketball, so just buy into my hypo. So lets say Lithuania has 10 players who are good to very good NBA players, but instead of any of those guys going, they have to bring a team full of guys who play in the Lithuanian basketball league. Maybe that is the analogy?

The bigger difference is the level of play in European youth programs vs the US. In Europe, and a number of the USMNT A-teamers grew up in the European club system, players sign with professional clubs as young as 8 years old. You live at the academy and train like a professional from that young of an age, where in the US, you play on your town travel team and move up to club team, but it's still just 2 or 3 practices a week for 90 minutes, and some kids play other sports. It's just a completely different mind set, and they develop into so much better players because of it. Most guys in the MLS, although maybe it's changing with the MLS youth academies, play in college. They don't go pro until they are 21. The experts all say the most important development years for a pro soccer player are 16-19, and in the US, players are going to high school and college, and soccer is an after school activity, even at the highest levels. Just worlds apart development wise, and the level of play in the leagues.

Maybe I should have gone with the analogy of the National League selecting an All Star team, but instead of major league players, they could only select A or AA players to play against the AL team.

In many cycles, the best players were a balance of Euro-based and MLS players, but even the Euro based guys grew up in the US and played in college. Exclude the Klinnsman years, as half the guys were German born and raised with fathers who served in the US military in Germany. Our current pool has a lot of guys like Reyna, Pulisic, and Weah who were lucky enough to have EU passports through parents or grandparents, and were able to get work permits to join Euro club academies. We also have a bunch of guys eligible for numerous countries that selected the US like Musah and Dest. IMO, the gap between the talent in the US pool between the Euro-based players and MLS based players is bigger than ever. I think it's more a factor of the sheer volume of guys with an unbelievable level of talent coming through right now. We have maybe 10 guys with the potential of being the most talented US players ever.

[Nonlinear FC]

So psyched this game is not starting at 10p.

I'm wagering we see a pretty similar lineup to what started against JAM, biggest issue is that Dike has looked really shaky against better competition. Which, unfortunately, means Zardes gets the start.

--------------------Zardes

Hoppe ------------------------- Arriola

---------- Llegget -------- Busio

------------------ Acosta ---------

Vines ---- Sands -- Robinson -- Moore*

* I wouldn't be shocked if Cannon gets the start here, but Moore has looked pretty OK (not great) going forward.

[wlu_lax6]

So psyched this game is not starting at 10p.

I'm wagering we see a pretty similar lineup to what started against JAM, biggest issue is that Dike has looked really shaky against better competition. Which, unfortunately, means Zardes gets the start.

--------------------Zardes

Hoppe ------------------------- Arriola

---------- Llegget -------- Busio

------------------ Acosta ---------

Vines ---- Sands -- Robinson -- Moore*

* I wouldn't be shocked if Cannon gets the start here, but Moore has looked pretty OK (not great) going forward.

SBI generally agrees with the exception of Roldan instead of Busio for the projected (they also swap Sands and Robinson)

their preference though is
Roldan instead of Arriola
Williamson instead of Busio
Cannon instead of Moore
and the swap of Robinson and Sands

[Nonlinear FC]

I mean... swapping where CBs lineup in a pretty much flat back four isn't really a huge deal. Unless they want coverage for one of the outside backs to make more runs than the other one. Maybe ask Vines to stay home more?

SBI's preferences are interesting but in some cases not rooted in a lot of reality. Williamson hasn't seen the field in, what, 3 games? And I just disagree with Roldan over Arriola, unless their argument is that they saw some injury nagging him and he shouldn't start on that front. Three Gs loves Arriola. As you pointed out, he originally had the armband and got it back the second he retook his spot. But just on straight merit? I just don't think Roldan brings more to the table than PA.

Like I said, wouldn't be shocked for Reggie to get the nod. Would actually kind of prefer it, as Moore has kind of been a bit one note with his crosses.

[wlu_lax6]

I mean... swapping where CBs lineup in a pretty much flat back four isn't really a huge deal. Unless they want coverage for one of the outside backs to make more runs than the other one. Maybe ask Vines to stay home more?

SBI's preferences are interesting but in some cases not rooted in a lot of reality. Williamson hasn't seen the field in, what, 3 games? And I just disagree with Roldan over Arriola, unless their argument is that they saw some injury nagging him and he shouldn't start on that front. Three Gs loves Arriola. As you pointed out, he originally had the armband and got it back the second he retook his spot. But just on straight merit? I just don't think Roldan brings more to the table than PA.

Like I said, wouldn't be shocked for Reggie to get the nod. Would actually kind of prefer it, as Moore has kind of been a bit one note with his crosses.

The article seems to put Moore/Cannon as a miles on the legs between last game, this game, and vegas over the weekend

For one, Cannon is a better defender than Moore in the 4-3-3 setup, and while he may not provide as much of an attacking threat as the Tenerife fullback, Cannon has played in a Gold Cup semifinal before and done well.

Secondly, Cannon would provide fresh legs in place of Moore, who has started four consecutive Gold Cup matches after jumping right into camp without a preseason. By starting Cannon, Berhalter would help Cannon get sharper for a potential final, while also resting Moore for the final as well.

SBI also thinks Pines will be sitting on them with Kessler as the backup for the center d
SBI likes Zardes for his pressing (taking pressure of USMNT midfield) and thinks Hoppe could cause all kinds of trouble because Qatar's Pedro Miguel likes to go forward and leave space behind him on the counter

[Nonlinear FC]

Qatar is a fascinating opponent. They really like to go forward and have been VERY dangerous. Their danger man is Afif and he's probably been the best player in the tournament (to be fair, I've watched very little of MEX for some reason.)

That said, agree with SBI in a general sense... Qatar is extremely sloppy and often unorganized in the back. Which suits this US teams' "style" of play pretty well. We are going to get plenty of counter opportunities because they like to send 6 and sometimes 7 guys into the attack.

[Nonlinear FC]

If we have to play Pines, we are fucked. Unless he figured something out from the last debacle of a showing. Woof.

[mister d]

Wait, they have a dude named "Afif"? Are we sure this is a real team? Is "Eilaog" in net?

[The Sybian]

Been meaning to ask, are the other countries bringing A teams, or is this whole tourney a joke? I guess teams not playing WCQs have no reason to sit A team, but did Mexico, Canada and Costa Rica bring their A teams?

[Nonlinear FC]

I don't think any team, other than Qatar, was either willing or able to bring their absolute A squad... But most countries sent much closer to a B+ or better. US getting to the semis with a C+ team is actually kind of impressive.

CAN intended for their best young forward to be there, for example, but he got hurt. They are missing a dangerous midflielder who plays for Red Star, but they had Champions League games, so he had to bail. But overall, they brought as good as they could for the most part.

MEX left off Chicarito, but overall this is about as good as they could bring.

Costa Rica is just old at this point. Nobody left off the squad that I really know of...

Stating the obvious, this is the Qatar squad that is going to represent them at the WC. So...

[P.D.X.]

Davies isn't playing for CAN right?

[Nonlinear FC]

Davies isn't playing for CAN right?

That's who I meant by injured guy, yes. I know he plays some in the back for Bayern, but I'm pretty sure he's almost exclusively a forward/winger for CAN.

[degenerasian]

Not a midfielder, the goalkeeper Borjan plays for Red Star. Alphonso Davies went back to Bayern and Jonathan David went back to Lille. Akinola and David got hurt during the tournament so Canada is really short on strikers. Canada's squad isn't full but it's closer to full than most of the other teams.

[Rex]

I think the US is the only team that is holding back anything close to 18-20 healthy players just to rest them. Mexico and Honduras didn’t have a choice. Canada is only holding back injured players as far as I know. Costa Rica might actually be bad now. I don’t think Jamaica held back anybody you would care about.

[tennbengal]

[tennbengal]

lol - Lletget is wearing the captain's band. Okey dokey, Berhalter.